|
Post by frienduff on Dec 12, 2018 12:16:35 GMT -5
Please allow me to submit Exhibit A: I Corinthians 13. Paul said a person may speak the tongues of men and angels, have “all knowledge” and be able to move mountains, yet having nothing to show for it because there’s no love. He didn’t say those who lack love can’t really speak in tongues; he actually said you can speak in tongues while doing no good. You can understand all knowledge and mysteries — apparently for real — yet be useless. That chapter doesn’t say they were all fake signs. Sister who is greatly loved , The way this is festering in you , I have to ask is it something personal in your faith . Are you worried about something or need to have reassurance in something .
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 12:23:04 GMT -5
It doesn’t worry me greatly, but it’s something I think about from time to time. I see too many Christians toss around that verse “Not everyone who says Lord” almost flippantly, like it’s a game to make others question their salvation. It seems like far too often, a Christian will bring forth a personal testimony, and some naysayer will toss out that verse to demoralize them. Lots of Bible verses are used irresponsibly to attack people.
I brought this up here because some people “on the other website” were using it to defend OSAS.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 12:26:20 GMT -5
Also, given the thing we see about the unpardonable sin, I’m extremely reluctant to label things as witchcraft just because I don’t like the preacher doing it. I don’t think it’s wise to say anyone beyond our doctrinal scope must be using magic to deceive people. I think it’s far more likely a case of Jesus using flawed people to help those in torment while trying to reveal Himself. I agree. That is why I never mentioned any real ministers names, just a movie character. We should be careful about calling miracles fake.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 12:29:11 GMT -5
Please allow me to submit Exhibit A: I Corinthians 13. Paul said a person may speak the tongues of men and angels, have “all knowledge” and be able to move mountains, yet having nothing to show for it because there’s no love. He didn’t say those who lack love can’t really speak in tongues; he actually said you can speak in tongues while doing no good. You can understand all knowledge and mysteries — apparently for real — yet be useless. That chapter doesn’t say they were all fake signs. Sister who is greatly loved , The way this is festering in you , I have to ask is it something personal in your faith . Are you worried about something or need to have reassurance in something .
Brother I do appreciate that you cared enough to ask! I am sure that I know Jesus, but I never want to assume that I’m too good to fall away! A healthy dose of “fear of the Lord” is a good thing.
|
|
|
Post by Abby-Joy on Dec 12, 2018 13:13:02 GMT -5
They had not followed on to know the Lord after the initial salvation experience, but continued in iniquity. Their fruits were evil. They hadn't entered in at the straight gate. Jesus even said these were wolves appearing as sheep... but we would know them by their fruit! These verses are about being not only hearers of His Word, but doers... doers of the will of the Father. (Mt 7:24, 26)
Taking the surrounding verses in Matthew chapter 7, it is clear that these did have an initial salvation experience but had not walked a sanctified life before the Lord. They continued in the works of the flesh while using the name of Jesus to do works. They began to trust in their works, rather to follow on to know God (relationship) .... and to know Him is to love Him ... and to love Him is to keep His commandments, to walk in the Spirit so that we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
Matthew 7:13-29 13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. 15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. 19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. 21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
Notice verse 22, below...
James 1:19-25 19 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: 20 For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. 21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. 23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: 24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. 25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Luke 11:28 “But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.”
For me, I feel this sums it up... much like what is being discussed in the OSAS debate... we can start out in the Lord, but not follow on to know Him and to be known of Him. We must abide in Him... in His Word, and in His love. Unless we abide in Him and His Word abide in us, we cannot bring forth good fruit.
John 15:4-10 4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. 6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples. 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 13:22:24 GMT -5
So it sounds like we’re talking about that moment of spiritual infancy when you come to the truth but you’re not yet fully regenerated. Those who press on into spiritual life will be “born again” into a new creation. But it’s possible to get stuck in that gray area between flesh and spirit — and this is where “works” of righteousness tend to be most prevalent.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 13:29:01 GMT -5
I do think that would best explain how someone could believe in Jesus but not be known to Him.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 13:36:00 GMT -5
So it sounds like we’re talking about that moment of spiritual infancy when you come to the truth but you’re not yet fully regenerated. Those who press on into spiritual life will be “born again” into a new creation. But it’s possible to get stuck in that gray area between flesh and spirit — and this is where “works” of righteousness tend to be most prevalent. Do you mean believe Jesus is who He says He is, but never really accepting Him as your Lord and Savior?
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 12, 2018 13:57:02 GMT -5
Mat 7:21-23 (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Now concerning this scripture, it is evident that these specific people were not ever known of the Lord.
Now concerning the 10 virgins, it is different, it does not say he never knew the 5 foolish, but because they did not continue in the way of the Lord, and did not fill themselves with oil, therefore there no longer being light, God said that he knew them not.
Here is an interesting scripture a friend showed me:
Joh 8:31-38 (31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
These Jews believed on Jesus, yet Christ said that his word hath no place in them.
So did they truly put their faith in God, or was it just mental ascent?
And I am aware that the OSAS use the Mat 7:21-23, in a wrong way, yet it is true that the context of that scripture does point to people he never knew, but there are other scriptures of course.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 14:04:52 GMT -5
So it sounds like we’re talking about that moment of spiritual infancy when you come to the truth but you’re not yet fully regenerated. Those who press on into spiritual life will be “born again” into a new creation. But it’s possible to get stuck in that gray area between flesh and spirit — and this is where “works” of righteousness tend to be most prevalent. Do you mean believe Jesus is who He says He is, but never really accepting Him as your Lord and Savior?
Perhaps even knowing that Jesus is Lord, but never repenting in a serious way, or not wanting to let go of a lifestyle. “These people acknowledge Me with their lips but their heart is far from Me.”
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 14:06:36 GMT -5
Mat 7:21-23 (21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. (22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? (23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. Now concerning this scripture, it is evident that these specific people were not ever known of the Lord. Now concerning the 10 virgins, it is different, it does not say he never knew the 5 foolish, but because they did not continue in the way of the Lord, and did not fill themselves with oil, therefore there no longer being light, God said that he knew them not. Here is an interesting scripture a friend showed me: Joh 8:31-38 (31) Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; (32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. (33) They answered him, We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? (34) Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. (35) And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever. (36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. (37) I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you. (38) I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father. These Jews believed on Jesus, yet Christ said that his word hath no place in them. So did they truly put their faith in God, or was it just mental ascent? And I am aware that the OSAS use the Mat 7:21-23, in a wrong way, yet it is true that the context of that scripture does point to people he never knew, but there are other scriptures of course. Yes I think this is what we’re dealing with. You are mentally convinced that Jesus is real but not spiritually/emotionally willing to repent. That would be someone who knew Jesus but Jesus didn’t know them.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 12, 2018 14:11:51 GMT -5
There is such a thing as lying wonders.
Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Now there are people like Benny Hinn today, who proclaim to be a faith healer.
I personally do not bear witness with him for many reasons.
Now I do not doubt that some of the so called miracles may be not of God at his meetings, but then again there may be some who do get healed, but not because of Benny Hinn.
There are times were people are putting their faith in God, and just happen to be at a Benny Hinn meeting and truly get healed by God.
It is faith in God.
But not all things done in the name of Jesus, are of God.
Here is an example of a type of healing, not of God (not done in the name of Jesus of course):
Rev 13:3 (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
Now I know there are many interpretations to this scripture.
And it mentions one of the beast's heads being healed.
I personally take this to point to one of the seven heads being healed, which points to a leader of a nation, which gets a deadly wound yet gets healed of this deadly wound.
So the possibility is there for even deceitful healings, and I even heard of people being healed in the name of Mary, though I have not heard of this very much.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 14:25:18 GMT -5
There is such a thing as lying wonders. Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Now there are people like Benny Hinn today, who proclaim to be a faith healer. I personally do not bear witness with him for many reasons. Now I do not doubt that some of the so called miracles may be not of God at his meetings, but then again there may be some who do get healed, but not because of Benny Hinn. There are times were people are putting their faith in God, and just happen to be at a Benny Hinn meeting and truly get healed by God. It is faith in God. But not all things done in the name of Jesus, are of God. Here is an example of a type of healing, not of God (not done in the name of Jesus of course): Rev 13:3 (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Now I know there are many interpretations to this scripture. And it mentions one of the beast's heads being healed. I personally take this to point to one of the seven heads being healed, which points to a leader of a nation, which gets a deadly wound yet gets healed of this deadly wound. So the possibility is there for even deceitful healings, and I even heard of people being healed in the name of Mary, though I have not heard of this very much.. Oh I have no doubt at all that fake miracles happen. Wiccans, Satanists, even Muslims can display so called-spiritual powers. I’m not questiong if the enemy can fake a miracle. I’m only questioning if Jesus would really allow a Christian seeker who believes He is Lord to go around doing witchcraft in His name without doing anything to show them the truth.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 12, 2018 14:40:54 GMT -5
There is such a thing as lying wonders. Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Now there are people like Benny Hinn today, who proclaim to be a faith healer. I personally do not bear witness with him for many reasons. Now I do not doubt that some of the so called miracles may be not of God at his meetings, but then again there may be some who do get healed, but not because of Benny Hinn. There are times were people are putting their faith in God, and just happen to be at a Benny Hinn meeting and truly get healed by God. It is faith in God. But not all things done in the name of Jesus, are of God. Here is an example of a type of healing, not of God (not done in the name of Jesus of course): Rev 13:3 (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Now I know there are many interpretations to this scripture. And it mentions one of the beast's heads being healed. I personally take this to point to one of the seven heads being healed, which points to a leader of a nation, which gets a deadly wound yet gets healed of this deadly wound. So the possibility is there for even deceitful healings, and I even heard of people being healed in the name of Mary, though I have not heard of this very much.. Oh I have no doubt at all that fake miracles happen. Wiccans, Satanists, even Muslims can display so called-spiritual powers. I’m not questiong if the enemy can fake a miracle. I’m only questioning if Jesus would really allow a Christian seeker who believes He is Lord to go around doing witchcraft in His name without doing anything to show them the truth. Well it depends on what a person is calling a Christian seeker. If it is someone who is a true Christian, of course Jesus would want to show them the truth, and lead them away from such ways, and I have a hard time seeing a true Christian operating in witchcraft, but there are true genuine believers who do get caught up in strange movements, which has strange manifestations such as the vineyard movement. And it seems to me that if they stay in these movements, their hearts will eventually get hardened to the things of God, and they will be gradually going away from God and be backsliding. God does not force us to walk in his ways, and if someone wants to use his name in a way that is not proper, even in the realm of miracles, God will eventually give them over to it.
|
|
|
Post by Abby-Joy on Dec 12, 2018 14:54:49 GMT -5
Then I believe this also offers insight. This speaks of those who did works of righteousness, and then trusted in their own works... and began to work iniquity. (vs 13) It's the same concept Jesus spoke of, of not abiding in Him, and the fruit being evil.
Ezekiel 33:11-18 11 Say unto them, [As] I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel? 12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his [righteousness] in the day that he sinneth. 13 When I shall say to the righteous, [that] he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it. 14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right; 15 [If] the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live. 17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal. 18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
|
|