PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 15:11:13 GMT -5
When Jesus said we know a prophet by his fruit, exactly what fruit do you suppose He meant? Did he mean the fruit of the Spirit that we see in Galatians 5, or did He mean obedience to the Sermon on the Mount?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 15:15:56 GMT -5
This is a very interesting testimony that I think sort of hits on the issue here.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 12, 2018 15:24:00 GMT -5
what is the difference in being someones friend and just an accomplice?
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 15:32:12 GMT -5
There is such a thing as lying wonders. Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Now there are people like Benny Hinn today, who proclaim to be a faith healer. I personally do not bear witness with him for many reasons. Now I do not doubt that some of the so called miracles may be not of God at his meetings, but then again there may be some who do get healed, but not because of Benny Hinn. There are times were people are putting their faith in God, and just happen to be at a Benny Hinn meeting and truly get healed by God. It is faith in God. But not all things done in the name of Jesus, are of God. Here is an example of a type of healing, not of God (not done in the name of Jesus of course): Rev 13:3 (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Now I know there are many interpretations to this scripture. And it mentions one of the beast's heads being healed. I personally take this to point to one of the seven heads being healed, which points to a leader of a nation, which gets a deadly wound yet gets healed of this deadly wound. So the possibility is there for even deceitful healings, and I even heard of people being healed in the name of Mary, though I have not heard of this very much.. Oh I have no doubt at all that fake miracles happen. Wiccans, Satanists, even Muslims can display so called-spiritual powers. I’m not questiong if the enemy can fake a miracle. I’m only questioning if Jesus would really allow a Christian seeker who believes He is Lord to go around doing witchcraft in His name without doing anything to show them the truth. I believe the Spirit would impress on them something is wrong. Some may not believe it is God or will just choose to rebel. Others will obey the Lord.
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 15:41:06 GMT -5
When Jesus said we know a prophet by his fruit, exactly what fruit do you suppose He meant? Did he mean the fruit of the Spirit that we see in Galatians 5, or did He mean obedience to the Sermon on the Mount? To me, a person walking in the Spirit will automatically be obeying Jesus' teachings and will bear good fruit. On the other hand, it is possible to obey Christ from the standpoint of keeping his sayings and not bear the fruit of the Spirit.
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Post by John on Dec 12, 2018 16:00:33 GMT -5
This is a very interesting testimony that I think sort of hits on the issue here. It shows there is a difference in believing God can save you as opposed to delivering you. When I encounter someone like that, I encourage them to resist the temptation and to keep seeking God to take away the desire for the drugs or alcohol. If in the meantime, while waiting on deliverance, if they fall, I tell them to confess their sins, dust themselves off and fight harder. There is no guarantee that if they do drugs or get drunk, they will ever have a chance to get right with God, so they need to fight the addiction.
I once heard of a homosexual who got saved, but wasn't delivered of the bondage. He went back to the gay bar, got into some trouble and wound up dead. BB at WCF is always making cracks about lucky repentance, but there really is no promise of the next day to make things right when we choose to sin.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 16:06:04 GMT -5
Well the genuises at you-know-where would have convinced that man to accept his condition as A-OK. They might have even told him it was wrong to “work” toward sobriety. Those folks are complicit in keeping people bound.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 12, 2018 16:14:55 GMT -5
I don’t believe luck has anything to do with it. God can preserve us or remove us in response to our choices. God doesn’t “accidentally” let people perish if they’re trying to repent.
In the case of that particular gay man, perhaps he still had enough of Jesus in his heart that he was saved. Maybe taking him at that moment was best to stop him from losing his faith altogether. We tend to see death as the worst possible outcome, but sometimes it can be the best solution to prevent a downward spiral.
The Spirit won’t strive with man forever. No one should rest on his laurels that God will always be there tomorrow. But I think we can take some comfort in the hope that God desires none to perish.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 12, 2018 20:19:49 GMT -5
When Jesus said we know a prophet by his fruit, exactly what fruit do you suppose He meant? I believe false prophets will produce bad fruits. Their talk will lead others away from God and/or not benefit them spiritually.
"A man shall eat well by the fruit of his mouth..." - Proverbs 13:2
"...but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned." - Hebrews 6:8
A false prophet can only be correctly discerned by those who know the Truth.
"They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them." - 1 John 4:5
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters." - Luke 11:23 I mean prophets in the context of those who walk professing a faith. Spiritually, they are all people.
"Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world." - 1 John 4:1
False prophets, in the context of foretelling future events and speaking in the name of the Lord and they coming to pass is another matter.
"...when the word of the prophet comes to pass, the prophet will be known as one whom the Lord has truly sent." - Jeremiah 28:9
Discernment is needed and very important because if a prophet only shows signs and wonders...
and no good fruit (e.g. for show and no benefits, vain) and call people to disobey God then that prophet is not of God.
"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods..." - Deuteronomy 13:1-2
"...you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the Lord your God is testing you to know whether you love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul." - Deuteronomy 13:3
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 12, 2018 22:16:12 GMT -5
Okay I’m not trying to disagree with you all. I’m definitely aware of the enemy’s ability to perform deceptive miracles. But it does raise a few more questions. 1) If these people confessed Jesus, called Him Lord, and prophesied in His name, why would Jesus allow demonic miracles to continue to deceive them? 2) They asked Jesus “have we not” which was a challenge to say if they hadn’t. Why did He not say the miracles were fake? 3) How can anyone have assurance of salvation of you can call Him Lord and prophesy in His name but it’s all an illusion?
These are great questions. This comes to mind:
I have miracles in my life happen all the time because I hear the Spirit's guidance. I find many Christians who do not experience the Lord on a personal level.
God weighs the heart. Without repentance to the calling out they're just reciting a formula, "1,2,3 pray after me! NEXT!" Jesus told us disciples, not buildings.
Many bought false fire insurance and the devil is quite content to keep them in the dark with the occasional lying wonder. What's not preached is the Holy Spirit. He is the down-payment of our salvation, Ephesians 1:13-14. There are two reasons for these issues: first, they're paying only lips service to God and are living the false life, or second, they're perpetual babies unwilling to grow in the Lord. But Paul says:
The vast majority of Christians do not understand nor experience the power of God therefore they can only speak to what they know. So it's not Jesus "allowing" the lies to occur, but those that listen to wolves instead of the Holy Spirit.
Many cannot tell you of the anointing. No one told me before it happened to me. As such, many ignore it, reject it, and teach against it. The word of God is filled from cover to cover with miracles, signs, and real holy wonders, yet the majority of Christians don't believe in them for themselves.
It takes just as much strong conviction (aka faith) to believe in miracles as it does to obtain salvation. If you don't have one, how can you know for sure you have the other, just as you said.
Anyhow, just my two cents.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 12, 2018 22:32:40 GMT -5
This is a very interesting testimony that I think sort of hits on the issue here. The video is interesting because what Christians don't like to talk about is spiritual warfare. Many are demonized, that is, they've not overcome the strongman in them. Romans 7 spells this out. What this guy did is exactly what each and everyone of us has to do. The Kingdom of God is by power not by words. Most of those that cannot overcome only have head knowledge of God and nothing personal. Only Jesus can make it real when we are truly saved, then we too are given that power, but we must choose to believe and take ownership of our lives and surrender it back to Jesus. Some just can't cease from sin, 2 Peter 2, which begs the question, are they truly saved to begin with or are they just demonized (vexed the word of God calls it, like Lot). There are so many people that are God's who are just trapped in vexations of the spirits. To be vexed means:
1. to tire down with toil, exhaust with labour a. to afflict or oppress with evils b. to make trouble for c. to treat roughly
If you're being bullied, find out why through the Holy Spirit. He'll tell us.
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Post by Giller on Dec 13, 2018 2:11:30 GMT -5
One scripture we have to be careful how we use, is this next one:
Rom 11:29 (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
It is important to read the context of what is spoken of.
And this how the chapter begins:
Rom 11:1 (1) I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
Then we go to verses 4 and 5, which is an answer from God to Elijah, concerning Israel:
Rom 11:4-5 (4) But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. (5) Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.
This is talking about a Jewish remnant.
Then we go to verse 7:
Rom 11:7 (7) What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
Here is a comment from John Wesley, and also from Jamieson Faussett Brown:
(John Wesley)
(Romans 11:7 What then - What is the conclusion from the whole? It is this: that Israel in general hath not obtained justification; but those of them only who believe. And the rest were blinded - By their own wilful prejudice.)
(Jamieson Faussett Brown)
(Romans 11:7-10 What then? — How stands the fact?
Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for — better, “What Israel is in search of (that is, Justification, or acceptance with God - see on Rom_9:31); this he found not; but the election (the elect remnant of Israel) found it, and the rest were hardened,” or judicially given over to the “hardness of their own hearts.”)
Then we go to verse 11:
Rom 11:11 (11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
So now we go unto our main verses:
Rom 11:25-29 (25) For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. (26) And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: (27) For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
The context of “for the gifts and calling of God are without repentance”, is in conjunction with the speaking of the Israelites.
Here is a comment on this:
(Joseph Benson)
(…For the gifts and calling of God, &c. — “The blessings which God freely bestowed on Abraham and his seed, and his calling, or making them his people, God will never repent of; but will restore to his natural seed the honour of being his people, after the Redeemer hath turned away their ungodliness of unbelief, Eze_16:60-62.” — Macknight.…)
So the part that says without repentance, is not talking about people getting gifts from God regardless to whether they repent or not, but rather it is talking about how God does not repent, or change his mind on what he bestowed on the Jews, in making them a nation, in calling them his beloved, therefore making them a people, and on the gifts that follow the Abrahamic covenant.
Rom 11:28 (28) As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
And here is what another scripture says about Abraham and his seed:
Gal 3:16 (16) Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
Now this promise of Christ has come, and it came from Abraham’s seed, and was promised to Abraham.
Through Christ we now have salvation to where we are set free from the power of sin, to reign in our lives, and this salvation has come to both to the Jew and Gentile, that is as they put their faith in Christ.
And salvation and everything that follows salvation are gifts.
But the context of Romans 11:29, which says this:
Rom 11:29 (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Is in reference to the Jews.
God does not change his mind concerning calling them as his people, and the many gifts he bestows on them, including salvation.
These are all there for the taking, but one must receive the gift and take it, or else he won’t have it.
Now everyone in the world has some type of gift, such as some are musically talented, some are good at doing reno’s and so forth, and these gifts can be used for the glory of God, when someone comes to Christ, but Romans 11:29 is not talking about this.
And the whole world in some form have these natural talents, which are not wrong in and of themselves.
But in salvation, there are many gifts, we get the fruit of the Spirit, we can get one of the 9 spiritual gifts, as the Spirit directs and so forth, but also you can lose them all, if you turn away from Christ, and stop believing.
Just like the Israelites who do not believe God’s report, they won’t inherit what God gave them, and Israel was promised a certain land, and at the millennial reign is when they shall get all their land, but if a Jew chooses not to put his faith in God, he won’t inherit these promises for he is in unbelief.
These promises are there to be had, but you have to take the gift in order to have it.
Same goes with salvation, it is a free gift, it is there for the taking, but you can lose it.
And also if you do not continue in Christ, you can end up no longer walking in the fruit of the Spirit.
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Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 5:15:13 GMT -5
Nice explanation Giller.
I always wondered about this verse you explained - (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
That verse was always tricky for me, and now you made me think about it.
I think it means "as" Paul was called "before" he repented, the same with us.
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (ISRAEL)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:(ISRAEL) but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:30 For as ye (GENTILES) in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: (ISRAEL)
Romans 11:31 Even so have these also now not believed (ISRAEL), that through your mercy (TO THE GENTILES) they also may obtain mercy.(ISRAEL)
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
It is in God's plans that Israel be saved, you spoke right, but only according to the election of grace (the remnants are hand picked, so not all). These remnants of Israel are still in unbelief to this day. They will be saved at the Coming "through mercy" and "not because they repented".
Repentance is an exercise, a journey in our walk to eradicate sin as we learn, not a sudden revelation that Christ is true at the last hour or minute. Do you see the difference? God chooses whoever, whether they be the remnants of Israel or the Gentiles before they even repent. We don't repent and then God calls us, but he calls us first, then we repent and receive the gifts. This is speaking to all who are "chosen" for salvation. Israel will get their salvation through repenting during the millennium. Then they will receive the gifts of the holy spirit for they will learn truth.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2018 6:42:20 GMT -5
Since my question was ignored by the geniuses at you-know-where I figured I might have better luck asking about it here... And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues — Mark 16:17
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. — John 9:31-33
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. — John 9:16
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. — John 14:10-12
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. — 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
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Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
———— How can these things be? I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think. This might partially help to shed some light on these things sister. One thing is that gifts and callings are given without repentance.....when someone comes to faith in Christ and receives the Holy Spirit, the gifts they receive are not taken away if the person goes off track, but what happens is that the gifts and their doctrine can become perverted. All power ultimately belongs to God, and He allows these things to test hearts, both false prophets and counterfeit miracles....it's not just a matter of head knowledge and cut & dried answers with outward obedience......but He allows us our free will and it's about what is in hearts that needs to be revealed and repented of. God tests in order to reveal, and sometimes He also even allows snares to be set in order in order to chastise or judge hearts that are wrong towards Him. Jesus could rightly tell them to believe in Him because of the miracles He did, since both He and His miracles were trustworthy and true, and Paul as well, but as we know from scripture that isn't true of every person and every miracle. Miracles testify that a person is from God, and help to open hearts to Him, but also by the same token if the person is off track miracles can draw hearts to false gospels and wrong doctrine. Ultimately if hearts are right or repentance comes about, the Lord can rescue and deliver the righteous from snares or from going astray of truth. There is an aspect that we are kept by the Lord, thankfully, our faithful Shepherd, rather than by our own selves. 2Pe 2:9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
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Post by John on Dec 13, 2018 9:31:33 GMT -5
Giller, Sister and Watchful all make good points. Giller is right about the context that verse is used in. At the same time, I have always seen that verse about the gifts and callings as a stand alone truth that was mentioned to show how God won't abandon Israel, and they will ultimately be saved. I can see the other side of this too, as I know talents can be taken from one and given to another, but that appears to be speaking of at the judgment. I don't believe we will be napping on clouds all day for eternity and playing a harp. We will have meaningful jobs to do in God's service. Can you lose spiritual gifts in this life? I don't think so, but Giller makes a strong case on context I can't just ignore.
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