PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 13, 2018 9:47:17 GMT -5
I always found it strange that Paul would be speaking of Israel in Romans 11 and then would randomly make a comment about an individual’s spiritual gifts in ministry. I’m just not convinced that we can build a whole doctrine of backslidden Christians healing the sick because of that one sentence. Giller’s explanation makes a lot of sense.
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Post by John on Dec 13, 2018 9:58:28 GMT -5
I always found it strange that Paul would be speaking of Israel in Romans 11 and then would randomly make a comment about an individual’s spiritual gifts in ministry. I’m just not convinced that we can build a whole doctrine of backslidden Christians healing the sick because of that one sentence. Giller’s explanation makes a lot of sense. It is easy to build doctrines on out of context verses. It may be time to listen to Romans on cd again. No matter how often I read it, I tend to discover hidden truths.
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Post by Giller on Dec 13, 2018 10:45:44 GMT -5
Giller, Sister and Watchful all make good points. Giller is right about the context that verse is used in. At the same time, I have always seen that verse about the gifts and callings as a stand alone truth that was mentioned to show how God won't abandon Israel, and they will ultimately be saved. I can see the other side of this too, as I know talents can be taken from one and given to another, but that appears to be speaking of at the judgment. I don't believe we will be napping on clouds all day for eternity and playing a harp. We will have meaningful jobs to do in God's service. Can you lose spiritual gifts in this life? I don't think so, but Giller makes a strong case on context I can't just ignore.
I do think that when God gives a spiritual gift, he wants you to have it, it is yours, but any thing can be for-fitted, if you totally turn away from Christ, just like salvation which is a free gift, but if you get off track, but repent, the spiritual gift still remains. And I believe that a spiritual gift such as prophecy, that a believer can be used in that capacity, and of course no one is perfect, but at the same time, if one who is usually used in that capacity, and they gradually turn away from God, and fall into the ways of sin, that gradually as they continue in that way, that that gift will gradually cease in its true operation, and eventually a counterfeit can come in its place. We have to remember that the 9 gifts are spiritual gifts that can indwell the believer through the Holy Spirit, in some form or way. And the bible says this: Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. This is in the same chapter as the fruit of the Spirit. Eph 6:23 (23) Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
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Post by John on Dec 13, 2018 10:57:04 GMT -5
Just so you understand what I was saying, I wasn't meaning that out of the blue, a verse was thrown into the text that had nothing to do with it. I believe it has something to do with what is being discussed.
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake. For the gifts and callings of God are without repentance.
What I was saying is that I have always seen this as stating that we know this is true about Israel, because the gifts and callings of God are without repentance. This is just a statement of fact. That is how I have always read it. I am not saying that I might not need to reconsider this, but that is how it always came across to me, so I never looked at it as building a doctrine around an out of context verse, though I know that is a common practice. It is something I will examine closer. There is no question about the context.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 13, 2018 11:05:19 GMT -5
I always took that verse to mean, God doesn’t change His mind about offering things to people. He doesn’t regret giving gifts. If we grow cold in using that gift, it isn’t His fault. Just like with Israel. God hasn’t given up on them or taken away His offer — they’re the ones who rejected Him. No one can say he lost a gift because God arbitrarily revoked it.
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Post by John on Dec 13, 2018 11:11:18 GMT -5
I always took that verse to mean, God doesn’t change His mind about offering things to people. He doesn’t regret giving gifts. If we grow cold in using that gift, it isn’t His fault. Just like with Israel. God hasn’t given up on them or taken away His offer — they’re the ones who rejected Him. No one can say he lost a gift because God arbitrarily revoked it. A-men to that. I totally agree! It is all on us if we aren't faithful with what God gives to us.
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Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 11:21:15 GMT -5
Giller, Sister and Watchful all make good points. Giller is right about the context that verse is used in. At the same time, I have always seen that verse about the gifts and callings as a stand alone truth that was mentioned to show how God won't abandon Israel, and they will ultimately be saved. I can see the other side of this too, as I know talents can be taken from one and given to another, but that appears to be speaking of at the judgment. I don't believe we will be napping on clouds all day for eternity and playing a harp. We will have meaningful jobs to do in God's service. Can you lose spiritual gifts in this life? I don't think so, but Giller makes a strong case on context I can't just ignore.
I agree this verse is referring to Israel.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
because two verses up it speaks about Israel;
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (ISRAEL)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:(ISRAEL) but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
What I don't see is that verse 29 is speaking about God repenting or not repenting on his decision concerning Israel. God chose Israel from the beginning. It's always been in his plan and God has used them as an example back then, now and future. Israel are enemies of the gospel because they do not accept Christ,... no buts. When they see his coming and recognise that Christ delivers them from their enemies, then they will believe in him. The veil will be taken off...,... and mercy given... .on that day. This is what it means "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - Israel will be saved by "mercy" alone, "without" them having to repent (no time left). Grace is given to start a new leaf.
Repentance is a learning process. I gave the example of the Gentiles also. The gentiles received mercy because of Israel's unbelief, not because they were good. That same mercy given to the Gentiles will go back to Israel also. Mercy upon the two groups in the end. God is fair.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
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Post by Sister on Dec 13, 2018 11:31:25 GMT -5
It's not about the gifts of healing, tongues and prophesies etc, because those gifts will cease. The gifts are the fruits of the spirit to come during the millennium for Israel - holiness, righteousness, truth, & love...perfect worship which are required for salvation. The remnants are called and chosen for this purpose.
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Post by Giller on Dec 13, 2018 11:43:56 GMT -5
It is using repentance in a sense that God will not repent of the things which he gives, or he will not change his mind on the gifts and calling.
Here is a few comments that might help:
(Albert Barnes)
(...Without repentance - This does not refer to man, but to God. It does not mean that God confers his favors on man without his exercising repentance, but that God does not repent, or change, in his purposes of bestowing his gifts on man. What he promises he will fulfil; what he purposes to do, he will not change from or repent of. As he made promises to the fathers, he will not repent of them, and will not depart from them; they shall all be fulfilled; ...)
(B.W Johnson)
(...For the gifts and calling, etc. God does not change his purposes or fail to keep his covenant. What he has promised concerning Israel will be fulfilled....)
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 13, 2018 12:19:40 GMT -5
The Bible speaks in other places about God’s repentance. We know it’s possible for God to change His mind on particular things. When you read about Moses intervening to save Israel in Exodus, it makes you wonder how human history would have gone differently if Moses didn’t do that successfully.
Anyway, based on that, Romans 11 seems to be along that line of what God will or won’t repent of.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 12:27:25 GMT -5
There is such a thing as lying wonders. Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. Now there are people like Benny Hinn today, who proclaim to be a faith healer. I personally do not bear witness with him for many reasons. Now I do not doubt that some of the so called miracles may be not of God at his meetings, but then again there may be some who do get healed, but not because of Benny Hinn. There are times were people are putting their faith in God, and just happen to be at a Benny Hinn meeting and truly get healed by God. It is faith in God. But not all things done in the name of Jesus, are of God. Here is an example of a type of healing, not of God (not done in the name of Jesus of course): Rev 13:3 (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Now I know there are many interpretations to this scripture. And it mentions one of the beast's heads being healed. I personally take this to point to one of the seven heads being healed, which points to a leader of a nation, which gets a deadly wound yet gets healed of this deadly wound. So the possibility is there for even deceitful healings, and I even heard of people being healed in the name of Mary, though I have not heard of this very much.. Oh I have no doubt at all that fake miracles happen. Wiccans, Satanists, even Muslims can display so called-spiritual powers. I’m not questiong if the enemy can fake a miracle. I’m only questioning if Jesus would really allow a Christian seeker who believes He is Lord to go around doing witchcraft in His name without doing anything to show them the truth. One who is HIS will not operate under a spirit of divination. We who are HIS can discern between the evil and good .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 12:36:14 GMT -5
When Jesus said we know a prophet by his fruit, exactly what fruit do you suppose He meant? Did he mean the fruit of the Spirit that we see in Galatians 5, or did He mean obedience to the Sermon on the Mount? That answer is quite simple . HE who loves GOD , loves the SON and he or she who loves the SON , loves and keeps HIS SAYINGS . the fruit of the Spirit is evident . but so is bad fruit . For as it is well stated in proverbs , the fruit of the wicked , iS TO SIN . And those who are Christs DONT NEED no huge money giving audience to pay them for their services . THIS IS IN ESSNCE exactly what the fake ones do . they often don't come right out and say it , but they know how to lure the money RIGHT OUT OF FOLKS . IF they doing their works and their works are for filthy lucre , ITS ALL GONE WRONG . I never seen John and peter , tell each other , HEY lets get a big crowd around us , so when we heal this man etc etc. JESUS never told any man he healed , NOW GO RUN into the streets and show me off . Fact is he often said tell no man . JESUS was not looking for self exalatation when HE did anything . Nor were the apostels . I never heard paul even once say , HEY church give me money so I can have a great big ship to sail around the world preaching the gospel . I never heard a one of them say , or even imply that is money is given it increases the chances of healing . IN fact what I did hear was quite the opposite . even when one TRIED TO PAY PETER , he said YOU perish with your money , for you have THOUGHT you could buy the gift of GOD . Peter would be rebuking every last one of these name it and claim its , every last one of these heaping and steaping Every last one of these who do as they do TO BE SEEN OF MEN and get RICH OFF IT . And so would all the apostels . AND SO WOULD OUR OWN LORD .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 12:46:55 GMT -5
I always took that verse to mean, God doesn’t change His mind about offering things to people. He doesn’t regret giving gifts. If we grow cold in using that gift, it isn’t His fault. Just like with Israel. God hasn’t given up on them or taken away His offer — they’re the ones who rejected Him. No one can say he lost a gift because God arbitrarily revoked it. Heres a silly song but it will make the point .
SPOT ..................don't we know this is so TRUE OH SPOT , IT surely matters what we DO CAUSE THIS SISTER IS SPOT ON . It was the same for Israel , it is the same from adam to all men . WE SERVANTS TO WHOM WE OBEY . And the gifts of GOD , HE DOES SO LOVE TO GIVE for the purpose of HIS GLORY , for the purpose of HIS EXALTATION , not ours . HIS . Why we do as we do can be as evil as doing evil itself . For if we do to be seen of men , to receive praise of men , We are no different that satan , who though he had many gifts , became through his own pride ENAMOURED with his own beauty , OH but let the lambs stay Enamoured WITH THE LORD ALONE .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 13:01:02 GMT -5
The Bible speaks in other places about God’s repentance. We know it’s possible for God to change His mind on particular things. When you read about Moses intervening to save Israel in Exodus, it makes you wonder how human history would have gone differently if Moses didn’t do that successfully. Anyway, based on that, Romans 11 seems to be along that line of what God will or won’t repent of. An entire sermon could be given on this . Folks who try and act as though GOD changes , OR HIS WORD changes , will also use this , BUT OUT OF TEXT . for they say SEE GOD DOES CHANGE . NO HE DOES NOT . WHEN a nation or people HEED HIS WARNING from on high , THEN HE HAS ALREADY SAID HE WILL NOT DO THE EVIL to It IF it repents . GOD already shows us , that if when HE WILL JUDGE the WICKED , But if the wicked REPENT he is no longer under that said judgment . Just as GOD says , if the righteous ,continues not in his righteousness, then none of his righteousness will be remembered he will DIE IN HIS SIN . But that is the righteous hears the warning and does not DO the wicked . AMEN . IF the wicked turns from his wickedness , and does righteous < HIS wickedness, all that he has done , WILL NOT be remembered . IF we examine the scrips , WE SEE THAT GOD NEVER CHANGES , HIS WORD NEVER CHANGES . AND know this , IF A MAN continues not in HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, NOT IN HIS GOODNESS, NOT IN CHRIST , he will be cast out . THIS Is why the early church , taught quite gravely , DO NOT ERR, DO not let these things be ONCE named among you . LET all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity . AND this is also why they said IF ONE DOES ERR, DO ALL to correct one . DO ALL to correct one . DO ALL to correct one , restore one back , convert one back and you have saved a SOUL , from death . FOR IT TRULY is possible that not just a few , but many can have come , been made partakers of the HOLY GHOST and yet return back to the mud pit . IF It were not so , PETER WOULD NOT HAVE SIAD SO , nor PAUL . Nor would they have so often warned , BE NOT DECIEVED . Take heed lest their be in any of you an evil heart IN DEPARTING from the FAITH . A lot of folks don't even know what THE FAITH MEANS IN WHOLE . Yall want to hear a scary example of what it means TO DENY JESUS , to DENY THE FAITH . IT means todeny HIS SAYINGS . Can I prove this . SURE CAN . Paul was telling timothy , but if one wont even take care of his own , specially those of his own household . HE HAS DENIED THE FAITH and is worse than even an infidel. WOW, worse than even an infidel . WELL yeah , cause HE KNEW BETTER , HE DID have faith , he just took of heeding JESUS , the SPIRIT . YEAH . BETTER get busy exhoriting , or at least don't see ol frienduff as a monster because of how serious I am . WE better all get serious and busy , POINTING TO JESUS and reminding all to OBSERVE ALL THINGS HE TAUGHT . OH YES .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 13, 2018 13:12:53 GMT -5
Giller, Sister and Watchful all make good points. Giller is right about the context that verse is used in. At the same time, I have always seen that verse about the gifts and callings as a stand alone truth that was mentioned to show how God won't abandon Israel, and they will ultimately be saved. I can see the other side of this too, as I know talents can be taken from one and given to another, but that appears to be speaking of at the judgment. I don't believe we will be napping on clouds all day for eternity and playing a harp. We will have meaningful jobs to do in God's service. Can you lose spiritual gifts in this life? I don't think so, but Giller makes a strong case on context I can't just ignore.
I agree this verse is referring to Israel.
Romans 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
because two verses up it speaks about Israel;
Romans 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (ISRAEL)
Romans 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes:(ISRAEL) but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
What I don't see is that verse 29 is speaking about God repenting or not repenting on his decision concerning Israel. God chose Israel from the beginning. It's always been in his plan and God has used them as an example back then, now and future. Israel are enemies of the gospel because they do not accept Christ,... no buts. When they see his coming and recognise that Christ delivers them from their enemies, then they will believe in him. The veil will be taken off...,... and mercy given... .on that day. This is what it means "For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance" - Israel will be saved by "mercy" alone, "without" them having to repent (no time left). Grace is given to start a new leaf.
Repentance is a learning process. I gave the example of the Gentiles also. The gentiles received mercy because of Israel's unbelief, not because they were good. That same mercy given to the Gentiles will go back to Israel also. Mercy upon the two groups in the end. God is fair.
Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
YES . GODS gift to Israel and the gentiles IS CHRIST . IF a jew rejects GOD he will die in his sin , if a gentile rejects GOD he will die in his sin . Lots of folks use that verse out of text . GOD , if we read has not only concluded all the jews to be in unbelief , But also every gentile . FOR THIER is NONE that does righteous . THE MERCY given , IS CHRIST , but if either gentile or jew reject that , THEY ARE DAMNED for all eternity . And not all thejews , just like not all the gentiles will be saved . IF so , paul BEING a jew would never have said HE TOO could be cast out . THEM early jewish apostels KNEW what man has long forgotten . JESUS ONLY SAVES , SO LETS GET BUSY preaching HIM to both jew and gentile . I AGREE WITH THEM . Not all jews or gentiles will be saved . ONLY those FOUND IN CHRIST . I say and said , ONLY those FOUND IN CHRIST . who believed IN HIM who followed HIM , to the end . No matter if it was for just five minutes or twenty years or fifty years , FIATHFUL TO THE END . We got folks on this jew mania train , and let us pray they hop off it quick . FOR the flesh profits no man . NO jew or gentile who rejects their creator , GOD will have life . AND if jew or gentile rejects JESUS , GUESS WHO THEY REJECTED . THE ONE WHO SENT HIM . GOD .
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