PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 10:40:16 GMT -5
Multiple visions of heaven show us angels speaking directly to God around the throne.
Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings; with twain he covered his face, and with twain he covered his feet, and with twain he did fly. And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory. — Isaiah 6:2-3
And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? — Revelation 5:1-2
And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. — Job 1:7
Then there’s this:
Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. — Jude 1:9
What language are they speaking in the heavenly realm? Since Hebrew and Greek, at the time of the Bible’s writing, were both manmade constructs, it could not have been those. I highly doubt the angels around God’s throne actually spoke in Greek. The prophets were able to translate somehow, just like we receive translation of tongues today.
Even if we assume that Adam and Eve originally spoke the standard language of heaven, it is long gone to us, so it might as well be the language of angels.
As for whether or not there is more than one, let me offer this only as a wrinkle in the fabric. Paul didn’t say the tongues of men and the tongue of angels. Both are assigned a plural.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 22, 2018 10:42:15 GMT -5
When Paul mentions a sounding brass and a tinkling cymbal, he’s specifically describing loud, obnoxious noises. In the story of Jairus’ daughter when the mourners were weeping and wailing, that’s the same word. This is a commotion. It’s not only pointless, but it’s also affectatious. Remember that later on Paul told them to be disciplined with their prophesying because God is not the author of confusion. Three times — the sounding brass, the trumpet playing no melody, and the prophets speaking out of turn — Paul gives us the idea of jarring, disorienting spiritual works. This is why he ends 14 with a final word to let all spiritual activities be done in decency and order. Not to make sure they’re done with a purpose, but to make sure they’re orderly. The purpose of these spiritual works, according to Paul: For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. — 1 Corinthians 14:31 How many prophets today actually prophesy to teach and comfort? Most of our modern prophecy is an angry rant against the heathen. There’s a need for rebukes, but that isn’t what Paul said prophecy was all about. If the only thing you ever hear from God is how bad other people are, you’re going to start sounding like a bang on a cymbal. And if multiple people are competing with each other to come up with the most fanciful vision of fire and brimstone, it will sound like a bad drum line. Love doesn’t hide the truth, but neither does love leave people trapped in condemnation. The word of God is a powerful sword, and His hand on a prophet is mighty unto works. We best tread softly and not act or speak in presumption. When Moses stood before God at Sinai, he could have easily said, “sure God, go ahead and destroy those useless people.” But he pleaded with God to spare them. That needs to be our attitude. We’re supposed to be using our sword for liberating people, not intimidating them. What you said about Moses is true . Moses stood as an intercessor. By the SPIRIT . And JESUS IS the INTERCESSOR between man and GOD . Why did I bring this up . Well , Moses even said to blot him out too . So moses was prepared to die for the people . Yet GOD said , no its the soul who sins that shall die . However upon Moses return He was no longer coming as intercessor , for when he heard and saw the people , He became wrath and many souls died . Why do I bring this up . Because right now the people in heart have said as the jews once said , they said WHERE is this moses , what has become of him , TODAY its where is this JESUS , he has been gone a long time and the people build a universal golden unity bull. At this moment JESUS makes intercession , BUT HE WILL RETURN as the WRATH OF GOD TOO . And that bull and all who worshipped it , will be destroyed from among the true people . SO , you are right , OUR DESIRE should not be for their death , BUT rather for their repentance . But false love does not cause repentance but rather acceptance TRUE LOVE would correct . FOR GOD is love and all whom He loves HE chastens and scourges . Ever wonder why paul said , thought the more I LOVE the LESS I be loved . Cause pauls love was not this hug em don't correct or warn them type dung I see today . PAUL rebuked , corrected . OF course FOR HE DID LOVE THE PEOPLE .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 22, 2018 10:53:05 GMT -5
And now a quick reminder . We interrupt this thread to bring a quick announcement . JESUS IS LORD let all bow before Him . And Heed not the lie of inclusivity . JESUS is LORD and let all the lambs REJOICE in the LORD . Raise those hands and praise the LORD . And it matters not what rome says about our sister Candace , WE LOVE HER . Now raise those hands sister and praise the Lord and let every lamb praise the Lord .
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 14:38:45 GMT -5
There was no doubt chaos in the Corinthian church, there is no doubt about that, and distinctive of noise was the context of 1 Corinthians 14.
But it is still good to talk about these things so to get understanding of these things.
I can see how people can take that scripture to mean that angels have many languages, which I will share a thing in a bit.
There is nothing clear that has been shared so far that is crystal clear about this issue so far.
The thing I would like to hear answered is this, can men speak in the tongues of angels? Or was it said in a way that , even if a man could talk in an angel's language and have not love?
Which way is it meaning it?
Because so far that has not been answered.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 15:02:03 GMT -5
To me in and of itself, it does not matter to me if the angels were speaking to God in an angelic language, or in a type of Hebrew or language that may have been lost.
Whatever the case so be it.
But the only scripture that can even hint at there being many angelic languages, that I am aware of, is maybe the Corinthians scripture we are dealing with, if there are others, feel free to share.
But so far no other scripture that can even hint at this, to were it is clear has been shared.
And of course this is not a salvation issue, but it is still alright to want to understand what the scriptures are saying.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 15:05:40 GMT -5
I pray that no one is getting angry while we talk about this issue, because there is no need for that.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 15:36:54 GMT -5
No hard feelings here. I also hope there are no hard feelings in our midst. I’m not trying to oppose people or rebuke them or anything like that. I’m just trying to have a direct, adult conversation.
Here’s the thing about tongues and meaningless babble in chapter 14. Paul makes it clear that these tongues are utterly useless to outsiders. If it was simply a matter of finding someone who can translate French or Italian, outsiders could easily discover what’s being said. If we could simply take a message in tongues and run it through Google Translate, we could easily discern the message with no divine assistance. There’s nothing really spectacular about delivering a message from God in an arbitrary human language that mlllions of pagans speak every day. God putting a message in Egyptian to astonish us is not a very high barrier, nor an improvement over English.
If you want to make the case that some proto-Hebrew language is the standard language of heaven, that’s fine. But bear in mind the Bible doesn’t tell us that either. We get these constant references to unknown tongues, untranslatable tongues, tongues of fire, etc, which only make sense if we’re actually dealing with an unknown, unspoken, untranslatable tongue. If it is some sort of proto-Hebrew, then as I mentioned before, it’s long gone to the human race now and is therefore unknown to us.
Did Paul make that comment to be tongue-in-cheek (pardon the pun) or was he serious? We know Paul had his share of spiritual experiences. We know he went to the third heaven where he heard “unspeakable words not lawful for a man to utter.” The only way for those words to be unspeakable would be for them to not be human. You could argue that he only meant not lawful as in he’d get in trouble if he said them. But he didn’t say fascinating words not lawful to utter, nor even foreign words not lawful to utter. He said they were downright unspeakable AND not lawful for him to speak if he tried. So whether or not Paul could actually speak that particular tongue, he knew one existed, and he was close enough to postulate it as an idea. Even for him to use it to make a point, there had to be a grain of truth.
So we have angelic creatures above and beyond the human race having conversations among themselves, with no explanation as to what language they spoke, one eyewitness testimony of hearing unspeakable words in heaven, and then a direct reference to an angelic language in the NT. Yet we are still deliberating if this language exists.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 15:51:27 GMT -5
No hard feelings here. I also hope there are no hard feelings in our midst. I’m not trying to oppose people or rebuke them or anything like that. I’m just trying to have a direct, adult conversation. Here’s the thing about tongues and meaningless babble in chapter 14. Paul makes it clear that these tongues are utterly useless to outsiders. If it was simply a matter of finding someone who can translate French or Italian, outsiders could easily discover what’s being said. If we could simply take a message in tongues and run it through Google Translate, we could easily discern the message with no divine assistance. There’s nothing really spectacular about delivering a message from God in an arbitrary human language that mlllions of pagans speak every day. God putting a message in Egyptian to astonish us is not a very high barrier, nor an improvement over English. If you want to make the case that some proto-Hebrew language is the standard language of heaven, that’s fine. But bear in mind the Bible doesn’t tell us that either. We get these constant references to unknown tongues, untranslatable tongues, tongues of fire, etc, which only make sense if we’re actually dealing with an unknown, unspoken, untranslatable tongue. If it is some sort of proto-Hebrew, then as I mentioned before, it’s long gone to the human race now and is therefore unknown to us. Did Paul make that comment to be tongue-in-cheek (pardon the pun) or was he serious? We know Paul had his share of spiritual experiences. We know he went to the third heaven where he heard “unspeakable words not lawful for a man to utter.” The only way for those words to be unspeakable would be for them to not be human. You could argue that he only meant not lawful as in he’d get in trouble if he said them. But he didn’t say fascinating words not lawful to utter, nor even foreign words not lawful to utter. He said they were downright unspeakable AND not lawful for him to speak if he tried. So whether or not Paul could actually speak that particular tongue, he knew one existed, and he was close enough to postulate it as an idea. Even for him to use it to make a point, there had to be a grain of truth. So we have angelic creatures above and beyond the human race having conversations among themselves, with no explanation as to what language they spoke, one eyewitness testimony of hearing unspeakable words in heaven, and then a direct reference to an angelic language in the NT. Yet were are still deliberating if this language exists. Ok I can see some interesting things said here. Not sure in how it is all meant, but it is something to think upon. But concerning the verse of though a man speak in tongues of angels, and have no love, is that like more of a a statement that says that even if a man was able to talk in the tongue of an angel, yet without love it is as sounding brass etc. Or is it said in a way that man is able to do so, yet without love it is such and such? Here is the way that it is said: 1Co 13:1 (1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. Is this a blanket statement that shows men can? And if he can, how or in what way?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 15:57:59 GMT -5
Here’s how I see it, and this is just my personal viewpoint. Paul didn’t say “Even supposing I could speak the tongues of angels...” He didn’t frame it as a pure hypothetical. He put it in the same class as giving his goods to the poor. There is no distinction between what is plausible or not in that passage. All propositions are spoken of the same. To suggest that Paul meant that one thing as purely hypothetical is to add something to the text that isn’t there.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 16:23:45 GMT -5
Here’s how I see it, and this is just my personal viewpoint. Paul didn’t say “Even supposing I could speak the tongues of angels...” He didn’t frame it as a pure hypothetical. He put it in the same class as giving his goods to the poor. There is no distinction between what is plausible or not in that passage. All propositions are spoken of the same. To suggest that Paul meant that one thing as purely hypothetical is to add something to the text that isn’t there. So if I am reading this correctly, are you saying that men can speak in the tongues of angels?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 16:35:55 GMT -5
I don’t see enough evidence that we can’t. Paul mentioned it as possibility and did not clearly say he was being facetious.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 17:19:41 GMT -5
I don’t see enough evidence that we can’t. Paul mentioned it as possibility and did not clearly say he was being facetious. I see it as a blanket statement as well. But now the question is, is how or in what way?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 17:36:09 GMT -5
I don’t see enough evidence that we can’t. Paul mentioned it as possibility and did not clearly say he was being facetious. I see it as a blanket statement as well. But now the question is, is how or in what way? I don’t necessarily think that speaking in tongues is the same as an angel language. Paul’s words about angelic tongues let us know there are languages beyond the human race. But unless an angel is speaking through us when we speak in tongues (which they’re not) it wouldn’t be an angel language. What makes the most sense to me is that there are different languages for different functions in the heavenly realm. Not that the langauges were divided to create division like at Babel. Just that there are different sorts of creatures doing different sorts of things and thus have unqiue languages. We are told that everything with breath will praise the Lord. We discussed here on another thread about the trees and plants praising God. We are told that rocks cry out. When we watch animals like cats, they have their own way to communicate with each other. There are languages everywhere. I firmly believe that every living creature has a way to express itself, which counts as a language. That’s one of the reasons Paul mentioned the tongues of men and angels. Who knows other languages there are? Speaking in tongues, as I understand it, is when the Holy Spirit speaks a message directly from the throne of God. I would classify it as a language spoken by the family (adopted or otherwise) of God. If you have evidence that angels speak among themselves, and it’s a form of music or worship that we may participate in, I’d be open to that.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 22, 2018 17:52:12 GMT -5
i have spoken to angels in my dreams. the language was not the same language as when i speak in tongues. I know they were angels because i received interpretation of said dreams. and also when i speak in tongues its not an earthly language, not my main prayer language. there have been times when earthly languages have come out, but the main language has not been identified.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 17:58:42 GMT -5
i have spoken to angels in my dreams. the language was not the same language as when i speak in tongues. I know they were angels because i received interpretation of said dreams. and also when i speak in tongues its not an earthly language, not my main prayer language. there have been times when earthly languages have come out, but the main language has not been identified. This is my experience as well. We can interact with angels, and it’s a different experience from prayer tongues.
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