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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 18:12:06 GMT -5
Oh I would agree with you guys, that the tongues of angels does not refer to speaking in tongues.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 18:14:59 GMT -5
i have spoken to angels in my dreams. the language was not the same language as when i speak in tongues. I know they were angels because i received interpretation of said dreams. and also when i speak in tongues its not an earthly language, not my main prayer language. there have been times when earthly languages have come out, but the main language has not been identified. Cletus when you spoke to angels in your dreams were you speaking in their angelic language?
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 18:34:34 GMT -5
Oh I agree that not all tongues are the same. There is prayer (unknown) tongues which is a heavenly language, and then there are other tongues, which are known languages in the world, but not known to you.
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Post by John on Dec 22, 2018 18:56:15 GMT -5
Oh I would agree with you guys, that the tongues of angels does not refer to speaking in tongues. I am not so quick to say that speaking in tongues is never in the tongues of angels. I believe that when the Spirit speaks through you, it can be in any language He chooses, whether it be an earthly language, or an angelic language.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 19:13:46 GMT -5
He could certainly minister through us in such a way that we speak an angel language. I’d agree with that.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 19:32:30 GMT -5
I am just wondering PG4Him and Butero, would you say that generally speaking, that there is an heavenly language that we speak in while in prayer tongues, that when spoken is not angelic tongues, but there are times that it is possible that in some cases that angelic tongues can be made manifested?
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 22, 2018 19:33:35 GMT -5
i have spoken to angels in my dreams. the language was not the same language as when i speak in tongues. I know they were angels because i received interpretation of said dreams. and also when i speak in tongues its not an earthly language, not my main prayer language. there have been times when earthly languages have come out, but the main language has not been identified. Cletus when you spoke to angels in your dreams were you speaking in their angelic language? I assume so. there wasnt any sign that said: this is the language of angels. it sure wasnt english. i never heard it before. turns out i am fluent in that language. it sure wasnt the language i speak when praying or singing in tongues either. and we had a pretty decent length of conversation. I forgot the dream as soon as I woke up, but in the morning the same person who told me... tonight you are going to have a dream... is the same person God used to give me the interpretation of the dream. and this same person was standing at the foot of my bed when i awoke... and he said sorry i thought this was the bathroom, but he went the wrong way down the hall way when he left. as He gave me interpretation of the dream it came back to memory and i was not troubled about it anymore. He told me there was two angels... and later he did make reference to the fact i am fluent in that language. i have zero doubt i have and can speak that language. it doesnt even sound like any earthly language. I also do not think there is just one language of angels. tongues of angels is plural.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 22, 2018 19:37:28 GMT -5
I am just wondering PG4Him and Butero, would you say that generally speaking, that there is an heavenly language that we speak in while in prayer tongues, that when spoken is not angelic tongues, but there are times that it is possible that in some cases that angelic tongues can be made manifested? I’d say yes.
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Post by Giller on Dec 22, 2018 19:43:42 GMT -5
Well you guys are giving me things to think about that is for sure, and it may be so about angelic languages, but concerning the 1 Corinthians 13 verse, there could be some leaning towards languages of angels, but hmmm, I will have to share soon about that.
Because it has some leaning on it, but in a different way.
But I admit that you guys have given me things to think upon.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 0:49:35 GMT -5
This is a great thread. There are four types of tongues: utterances of the spirit, man's means of communication verbally, spirit realm (angels) language, and God's language. Remember the word angel is just "messenger," literally, "someone sent" which is why Jesus is the Son that was sent and the Angle of the Lord, but also angels can be believers like the seven trumpet angels, they're believers. Read Revelation 19:10 and then trace back to whom John is speaking to.
Try and keep in mind that religions have inserted buzzwords rather than maintain their understanding of the words. When you get back to the meaning of words, like angel, you can realize they're not all heavenly creatures, but messengers, some created in heaven, others on earth who were made a little lower than those in heaven.
The tongue. Call those things which be not as though they were. Roman 4:17 What does it mean to call things that be not as though they were? Prophesy your future. How do you prophesy your future? 1. Speaking positive things in you life. 2. Believe what you speak. 3. Trust in God. Remember that the bible say there is death and life is in the power of the Tongue (Proverbs 18:21) Either you can speak good things upon yourself or you can speak bad things upon your self. Whatever you speak believe what you say. Make the scripture work for you by changing your thinking: 1. I can do all things though Christ who strengtheneth me. (Philippians 4:13) 2. And we know that all thing work together for the good of them who love God, to them who are called according to his purpose. ( Romans 8:28 ) 3. No weapon that is formed against me shall prosper, and every tongue that rise me shall be condemn. ( Isaiah 54:17) 4. I am a positive encourage. I edify and build up; I never tear down or destroy. (Romans 15:2) 5. I am a believer--- not a doubter! ( Mark 5:36 ) 6. I love all people, and I am loved by all people (1 John 3:14) 7. I am a responsible person. I enjoy responsibility, and I rise to every responsibility in Christ Jesus. ( 2 Cor. 11:28 ; Phil 4:13 ) 8. I do not speak negative things. ( Eph. 4:29 ) 9. I am an obedient wife (child) and no rebellion operates in me. ( Eph 5:22,24 1 Sam.15:23 ) 10. I am very prosperous. I prosper in everything I put my hand to do. I have prosperity in all areas of my life- spiritual, financial, mental, and social. ( Gen. 39:3; Josh 1:18; 3 John 2 )
The Word of God is a vision to those that speak it!!! Ephesians 3:20 "Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, …"Proverbs 15:4 "A wholesome tongue is a tree of life: but perverseness therein is a breach in the spirit." The word "wholesome" is מַרפֵּא which literally means "healing" or "cure". Remove the mem (מ) (meaning "from" or "of") and you get רפֵּא which means "to cure" or "to heal" or "to make whole" or "restore". This is the meaning of the name Raphael (רָפֵּאל) "God Heals" (רָפֵּא אל)
Mem's pictograph is waters. So one could say Proverbs 15:4a can read: "a healing tongue, by the flowing waters from the Holy Spirit, is a tree of life". רפא is "relax" so if we relax in the Spirit, we will be healed. (רפא also means abate, cease, consume, draw (toward evening), fail, (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go, down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak(-en))
John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water." "sound" here is again מַרפֵּא whereas "envy" is like cancer to the bones. Many doctors says that more often than not, arthritis is cause from bitterness. They also say that it's not what we're eating, but what's eating us: anger, bitterness, unforgiveness, worry for tomorrow, to the point we worry when everything's great!
You could say that a peaceful, tranquil heart is life to the body! A relaxed mind is life to the body.
The word "be careful" is the same as "anxious", to "worry".
Fear leads to hate...fear births hatred. If you fear God beyond His due respect and awe it's the wrong kind of fear. If you wrongfully fear your boss, or mother-in-law, you will learn to hate them! In this verse "power" in Greek is dunamis which is the miraculous power - the power that flowed out of Jesus and healed them all and is the word Jesus used when He said who has "touched me: for I perceive dunamis is gone out of me" (Luke 8:46)! Dunamis is where we get the word dynamite! Love is agape - not just affectionate love, but benevolent understanding love. The love that is I Corinthians 13 love. Finally the word for "sound mind" is sophronismos which is translated in all kinds of ways, but the real meaning is "even keeled," "balanced". One version says that it is "safe and sound in mind and emotions; in proper control of one's faculties of thoughts and emotions." Or as some say "no stress" and at peace.
"Stir up" is to re-kindle and the "gift" is charisma - which is the gift FROM the Holy Spirit, not the gift (doma) OF the Holy Spirit. The gifts of the Spirit (healing, miracles, prophecies, etc) are charisma! So what charisma is Paul telling Timothy to re-kindle? So let's see what happened when Paul laid his hands on Timothy:
Tongues - the only gift we can call by our will.
Satan is already defeated, so if he comes, don't "try" and defeat him, he's already defeated. It's one thing pray FOR victory, it's another to pray FROM victory. It's one thing to fight FOR victory, it's another thing to fight FROM victory. One is from a point of view from defeat the other from rest. It's one thing to TRY to get healed, it's another to know you are healed, experiencing the symptoms of lies. You are the healed in Christ. Our place is a given, a place of rest in Christ.
Speaking in tongues is one way the Spirit prays through us for things our flesh would only get in the way.
It is also the means by which the Spirit communicates to someone you’re speaking to that neither of you speak a common language.
Paul gives us guidelines for speaking in tongues but far too many that use it use it incorrectly, to make a show and bring attention to themselves instead of to Jesus. Paul says if tongues are used in public, they should be interpreted, otherwise, what good is it, except to communicate with God in your closet. As with a chaotic church service with people falling all over the place, or stoic church stifling the movement of the Holy Spirit, mob mentality tends to rule.
I absolutely LOVE a well known teacher! He’s an awesome teacher, but he doesn’t believe in the manifestations of the Spirit at all. I was like him until I experienced the Holy Spirit for myself. So who’s correct? We both are. See, all you have to do is look at creation and see the myriads of differences to understand that every human being is different. We’re even sealed as such by God in our fingerprints.
Smith Wigglesworth was a great man of God in the early 20th century and has documented risings of the dead, including his own wife. He healed tens of thousands and yet he could not heal his deaf daughter. God deals with us as differently as He does with creation. Even God’s choice to convey His message are from two diverse languages you can get on earth. Hebrew is a wonderfully creative language. Using root words, you can create your own word – much like we do in English using -gate to depict a scandal like Watergate, and people will understand you. Greek is a very structured language with a lot of rules, saying what it means and means what it says.
We claim to follow Christ, but most of the quotes we make from the Scriptures are from Paul. Paul was a radical. Paul only had the Hebrew Scriptures and yet we quote him more than anyone else, even Jesus. God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Yet just as different creation is throughout the world, so is His dealings with us. What Paul said in his day cause him to end up in jail as well as all those that repeated his words. We have a promise from Joel that in the last days God would pour out His Spirit on ALL flesh.
This started at Pentecost:
But who said it ended? If it’s recorded in the Word of God then is can happen again. John warns us that the world could not contain all that there is to be written just about Jesus’ life on earth, how can we dismiss what’s written of in the Word of God as being phoney baloney in the lives of people today? Enoch was raptured, was it only meant for him? Before Elijah, one could easily preach as such! But no, it’s not just for Enoch because Elijah was raptured. Jesus was raptured. Paul’s friend, John, Daniel, and Philip were raptured, albeit temporarily. So if someone talks about being translated, who are we to dismiss it as not possible just because we ourselves haven’t experienced it. Elijah saw the Lord’s army but his servant didn’t – until he prayed for him to see. So when someone says they see angles and you don’t, that doesn’t make them better than you and it doesn’t make you worse than them.
So if people have entertained angels unaware, some have entertained knowingly! In whatever you do, do it for the glory of the Lord. We are “sons of God” yet that title was reserved for the angles of the OT. Yet, that isn’t the end of us! There waits something else for us!
An amazing fact. But be content. If you’re happy with milk, enjoy the milk, get a milky mustache, and give thanks to God. If you want more, there’s more, take it. God loves you. Delight in Him and He’ll give you the desires of your heart, because your desire will be Him and He’ll come to you!
Just some ramblings I hope help.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 23, 2018 10:03:54 GMT -5
Interesting thoughts, Abdicate. Let’s go through them to see if I understand what you are saying. — Angels. Yes, an angel is a messenger of God. However I’m pretty sure it must be a divine/supernatural messenger. The saints called angels in Revelation were already inhabiting heaven. Scripture gives us no clear example of a regular human called an angel. A mortal man who is a messenger of God is called a prophet. — Four types of tongues. Help me understand how an utterance of the Spirit is not the language of God. — Are you teaching name-and-claim-it as a form of prophecy? Do you believe this counts as a form of tongues? — The thing about the water completely lost me. You’ll have to expand on that.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 13:16:43 GMT -5
Yes, in my mind as I was typing, I meant believers gone home, like Elijah and Moses on the mount, are messengers. It's why I wrote the distinction between created in heaven and created on earth. I'm not sure what you mean, the utterance of the Spirit is a language of God. I make the distinction because when God speaks creation happens. When the Spirit uses us to utter His words, events are created rather than creation. Everything in the universe has a vibration, a frequency, because God spoke everything into existence.
I hate that label! I do not subscribe to it in any way. The blessings of God are clearly spelled out in the word of God. But God is NOT a genie to be summoned. The whole name-and-claim-it is a work of the devil to further confuse and suppress the truth. What better way to hide the truth than to mix truth with lies, like 120 English bibles. There is a fine line between receiving knowledge by God (prophecy) and knowing what's going to happen through declaration (prophecy). Jesus said:
God gave authority to the church to effect change on earth. This is NOT "I want a red Ferrari" authority, but "Save England from Hitler" authority. If we have authority, then is prayer a form of begging God to act? By begging, we are trying to persuade God to do something He's reluctant to do or what. Prayer is calling upon the authority given to us to effect change, James 5:16. That's what Hebrews 11:1 is all about. And the miracles of Jesus to those who asked were not based on His abilities, but on their faith - their strong conviction to the truth.
Look at the events of Elijah's utterance to stop the rain. He made a declaration (38 English words):
But when it was time to let the rain come, he made a declaration, but his heart was not in it and it required more effort, seven times as much (154 English words):
See how James describes the two "prayers":
The first prayer, to stop the rain, was made in earnest (i.e. with real desire), while the second prayer was just a prayer - the maneuverings were not recognized as part of the prayer.
My apologies. Let me try again.
Hebrew is thematic, in that a letter or a word can have multiple meanings. Every Hebrew letter has its own meaning. Alef means "sacrifice, authority, one, thousand", Beit means "house, tent, 'in'" etc.
The word "wholesome" in Proverbs 15:4 is מרפא (marpe) which literally means "healing" or "cure". Remove the mem (מ) (meaning "from" or "of") and you get רפא (rafa) which means "to cure" or "to heal" or "to make whole" or "restore". This is the meaning of the name Raphael (רפאל) "God Heals" (רפא אל)
Mem's (מ) pictograph meaning is waters. So one could say Proverbs 15:4a can read: "a healing tongue, by the flowing waters from the Holy Spirit, is a tree of life". רפא is "relax" so if we relax in the Spirit, we will be healed. In other words, what you say affects our lives. Words spoken have their own power like an arrow when shot. This is the same reason why God spoke everything into existence. Proverbs is saying that a tongue has power.
So, if we speak death, we'll receive death. If we speak life, we'll receive life.
Romans links the belief of the heart with the words uttered. These are not metaphors or allegories, they are very real, otherwise, what is prayer but a begging tool, which is void of faith and filled with lusts. The name-it-claim-it pride have it backwards making God a genie rather than living by a strong conviction of the truth of God in holiness.
James links prayer to righteous living. The name-it-claim-it pride tries to take the promises of the word of God, requiring us to be holy, and turning it into a formula, just like the salvation formulaic phrase of the 1960's "1, 2, 3, pray after me! NEXT!"
Finally, under the correct conditions of peace and freedom, right living Christians should be prosperous. These are promises. But as with all, there are required conditions, right living, strong conviction in God's promises, no persecution, and contentment with Godliness. Persecution negates those blessing of God on earth and transfers them to heaven. This is because of God's greatest human gift: choice. I've often thought on why the end times occur and it's our fault. We allow evil to thrive through our lack of understanding, perpetual babies, and worldly living. The Kingdom of God is by power, which mainstream religions now teach against so as to hide their falsehoods.
They do not have the power because they're the product of the 1960's salvation formula and in order to hide it, teach against the power of the kingdom. Ask the Jews of Israel if they believe in miracles and they'll tell you they don't believe in them, but live by them. Study the Six Day War and you'll see they won, by the grace of God, with just two WWII French cannons against three regular armies, and seven Expeditionary Forces. God does not bless the Jews because they believe, He blesses them because God made a promise to Abraham, His friend, to do so.
Jesus isn't a Christian, He's a Jew.
Anyhow, I hope I've clarified some things. I just ask you be careful with labels. A perversion is just a twisted truth surrounded by misunderstandings and lies. In the 70's, meditation was the big thing (as its comeback is today), but God said to meditate on His word day and night. One teaches to empty your mind, the true one tells you to fill your mind with God's word. But both teach to focus on the here and now, today, in this moment, not tomorrow or yesterday.
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Post by John on Dec 23, 2018 15:39:52 GMT -5
I am just wondering PG4Him and Butero, would you say that generally speaking, that there is an heavenly language that we speak in while in prayer tongues, that when spoken is not angelic tongues, but there are times that it is possible that in some cases that angelic tongues can be made manifested? I’d say yes. I would say yes as well.
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Post by John on Dec 23, 2018 16:23:30 GMT -5
What you are saying Abdicate, sounds similar to things Kenneth Hagen used to teach. Are you familiar with him? It sounds like you are subscribing to a type of positive reinforcement rather than name it and claim it. Is that a good description?
As far as tongues go, I am not sure I understand if you believe the Spirit will sometimes speak through us in an angelic language or he won't?
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 23, 2018 16:30:05 GMT -5
Thank you for explaining Abdicate . We are pretty much in agreement. I was hoping you meant a better teaching than N&C. I believe that we pray for discernment on what God wills in a situation, so prayer can also be an investigative practice, and then we take authority to do/speak based on what God reveals to us. Once His provision has been released to us, it’s our job to apprehend it in the natural. Faith is what helps us make spiritual answers manifest into physical. We’re never supposed to pray from a position of fear or panic. I’ve never seen God respond positively to those prayers. However, we are told to bring our petitions to God, and Jesus did say He provides what we ask for. As I see it, N&C doesn’t go wrong by claiming material gain, but by claiming things amiss, even well-intentioned spiritual things. If God doesn’t will for me to serve in a particular church, no amounting of claiming it can make it His will. Many times I’ve had the experience of negotiating with the Lord in prayer before He released His final answer. We bring our petition, we deliberate in a posture of respectful confidence, we perceive what final answer the Lord gives us, and we go forth to execute. I assume you’re in general agreement with this. I’m not correcting you, only trying to expand on the topic to be comprehensive for our readers. Scripture absolutely makes a connection between words and water. I did on a study on that once. Our words can be a crystal spring of smooth mineral water, or they can be a torrent of ravaging salt water. This is where you lost me last time. How did that word go from heal to relax?
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