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Post by Giller on Dec 23, 2018 19:03:09 GMT -5
Thus far, I find the strongest evidence presented as concerns some possible angelic language, I find is what was mentioned concerning Paul and him going to the third heaven. 2Co 12:2-4 (2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Here are two Greek definitions of the word unspeakable: (Strong's concordance)
(G731 ἄῤῥητος arrhētos ar'-hray-tos From G1 (as a negative particle) and the same as G4490; unsaid, that is, (by implication) inexpressible: - unspeakable. Total KJV occurrences: 1)
| (Thayer's concordance)
(G731 ἄῤῥητος arrhētos Thayer Definition: 1) unsaid, unspoken 2) unspeakable (on account of its sacredness) Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and the same as G4490) |
Now no doubt it was talking about words that were spoken, it mentions unspeakable words. This really does sound like angelic words, no doubt the ones speaking these words were able to speak them, but for Paul (which most believe that it was Paul talking about himself) it seems that these words were unspeakable to him. To me in this case it really does sound like an angelic language being spoken in heaven (third heaven). But for some reason it was unspeakable words to Paul, was it unspeakable to Paul because he could not speak this seems to be angelic language? Or was it unspeakable to Paul because of it's sacredness, which it says it was not lawful for him to speak, and I am wondering did Paul understand what was spoken?
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 22:53:42 GMT -5
What you are saying Abdicate, sounds similar to things Kenneth Hagen used to teach. Are you familiar with him? It sounds like you are subscribing to a type of positive reinforcement rather than name it and claim it. Is that a good description?
As far as tongues go, I am not sure I understand if you believe the Spirit will sometimes speak through us in an angelic language or he won't?
I don't usually follow pages because I'm usually just dismissed. I caught your comment because of PG4Him 's request for more information, otherwise, I would have missed your comment. So please use reply or cite my name.
I've heard of Kenneth Hagen, but to be honest I don't listen to anyone very long so I can't say I know what he teaches or believes. I get him mixed up with Kenneth Copland whom I know I do not like. I don't know what you mean by positive reinforcement. Might you be referring to what Paul says:
As for the Spirit's work, certainly He can use us physically to do His work. After all, that's what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 12:10; one speaks another interprets. If there is no one to interpret, then the first should be silent. Speaking utterances from the Spirit is more of a personal edification, to effect change in our own lives without the influences of the flesh interfering with out words. If we speak His utterances in public and there is no interpreter, how will anyone be edified, is what Paul is saying. All things must be done for the glory of God else it is of the flesh and vanity, 1 Corinthians 10:31. Remember, there's no formula here, it's all about Jesus and His glory.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 23:47:08 GMT -5
This is where you lost me last time. How did that word go from heal to relax? Ah, sorry about that. I forgot to include my thoughts on disease. That is "dis-ease" as in not being relaxed. Much of our issues today are a result of stress, and stress causes us dysfunction and eventually disease. מרפא (marpe) has a double meaning; health and disease. In fact, its first use is found in 2 Chronicles 21:18 when its used as disease. In fact the second time it's used is also disease. But the third time is found in Proverbs 4:22 when instruction is health (marpe) to the flesh. So to be in health and not in dis-ease, be at ease and rest in God and take health through relaxing in Him. Does that help? Sorry for the confusion. My mind gets way ahead of my fingers. I'll leave you with this about the word מרפא and its letter meanings in order left-to-right: from, man, speaks, authority. Doesn't that sound like:
Healing is in the words we speak with authority. It also reminds me of Paul's words,
Because we believe and confess, things happen. It's not a coincident that the word for healing is the same word for disease and it's letter meanings matches Proverbs. We speak life or death, and we shall eat the fruit of those words to health or disease. I hope this helps.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 24, 2018 9:02:39 GMT -5
I've been meditating, and one of the things I ponder is first use of a word in the word of God. In the case of מרפא, it's first two uses are disease, and the third time is health. Here they are: I was thinking about how we are born into sin, and incurable disease without a remedy except for Jesus who on the third day rose to set us at ease through Him. Everything in the word of God, sometimes even the order of use of a word, points to Jesus.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 24, 2018 9:19:26 GMT -5
Kenneth Hagin was a famous preacher back in the 1960s-70s. Abdicate ‘s teaching is indeed similar. That’s not a bad thing; it’s just an observation. Generally speaking, I’m in agreement. The attitudes and emotions we express through our words are very real. We can give our home an atmosphere of strife or an atmosphere of peace. We can speak in alignment with the enemy or alignment with God. Many people, even good Christians, have no idea how much of the enemy’s narrative they say out loud because the enemy is feeding them thoughts. What’s really dangerous is when they start praying in fear based on a narrative that came directly from the gates of hell. However, no one can resist the hand of God when He wills a certain outcome. I’ve been in situations where I knew death was the directive from God’s throne, and no matter how hard I preached or confessed otherwise, death was meant to be.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 24, 2018 9:31:28 GMT -5
In keeping with this thread about tongues, here are some things about the word tongue.
H3956 לָשׁוֹן lashown (law-shone') n-m. לָשֹׁן lashon (law-shone') לְשֹׁנָה lshonah (lesh-o-naw') the tongue (of man or animals), used literally (as the instrument of licking, eating, or speech), and figuratively (speech, an ingot, a fork of flame, a cove of water). [from H3960] KJV: + babbler,bay, + evil speaker, language, talker, tongue, wedge. Root(s): H3960
H3960 לָשַׁן lashan (law-shan') v. 1. to wag the tongue. 2. (by implication) to slander, calumniate. KJV: accuse, slander.
- Original: לשׁנה לשׁן לשׁון - Transliteration: Lashown - Phonetic: law-shone' - Definition: 1. tongue a. tongue (of men) 1. tongue (literal) 2. tongue (organ of speech) b. language c. tongue (of animals) d. tongue (of fire) e. wedge, bay of sea (tongue-shaped)
The letter meanings are: לשׁון
ל staff, control, "from/to", learn
שׁ consume, destroy, teeth, supply ו tent peg, nail, connect, "and" ן seed, fish, life
As you can tell, there are many ways to connect the meaning of each letter to form a meaning, that's what Hebrew is. There isn't a perfect one-for-one translation. What does a tent peg do? It keeps the home stable. Something fastened or sure is established. Here's a thought:
control, destroy/supply, established, seed
Indeed, how many words are really seeds planted into our thinking through words people say. They can either be for a blessing (supply) or a curse (destroy). Another way to say this is:
learn, supply, connect, life
That is, learn to give life by connecting man with God, which is our ministry:
Now you can begin to understand why you read a verse 100 times and that 101 time you see something new! Indeed, the word of God is living!
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 24, 2018 9:33:15 GMT -5
Thus far, I find the strongest evidence presented as concerns some possible angelic language, I find is what was mentioned concerning Paul and him going to the third heaven. 2Co 12:2-4 (2) I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven. (3) And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) (4) How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. Here are two Greek definitions of the word unspeakable: (Strong's concordance)
(G731 ἄῤῥητος arrhētos ar'-hray-tos From G1 (as a negative particle) and the same as G4490; unsaid, that is, (by implication) inexpressible: - unspeakable. Total KJV occurrences: 1)
| (Thayer's concordance)
(G731 ἄῤῥητος arrhētos Thayer Definition: 1) unsaid, unspoken 2) unspeakable (on account of its sacredness) Part of Speech: adjective A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G1 (as a negative particle) and the same as G4490) |
Now no doubt it was talking about words that were spoken, it mentions unspeakable words. This really does sound like angelic words, no doubt the ones speaking these words were able to speak them, but for Paul (which most believe that it was Paul talking about himself) it seems that these words were unspeakable to him. To me in this case it really does sound like an angelic language being spoken in heaven (third heaven). But for some reason it was unspeakable words to Paul, was it unspeakable to Paul because he could not speak this seems to be angelic language? Or was it unspeakable to Paul because of it's sacredness, which it says it was not lawful for him to speak, and I am wondering did Paul understand what was spoken? This is what I mentioned in a previous comment: The only way for those words to be unspeakable would be for them to not be human. You could argue that he only meant not lawful as in he’d get in trouble if he said them. But he didn’t say fascinating words not lawful to utter, nor even foreign words not lawful to utter. He said they were downright unspeakable AND not lawful for him to speak if he tried. The Greek word at stake here literally just means “not speak” with no hint of it being because of sacredness. All attempts to spin it into “unspeakably sacred” are adding to the text. Then he says not lawful for man to speak, but it’s a different word. The first half says man cannot say the words, and the second half says men are not permitted to converse or proclaim in those words. It is both practical and legal. We cannot physically speak these words because we weren’t designed to be fluent in whatever they’re saying. For all we know, it could have been an encrypted language of warfare that we would expose if we spoke. To assume that this is a sacred worship language might be perfectly natural, but it’s still an assumption.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 24, 2018 9:59:02 GMT -5
For all we know, it could have been an encrypted language of warfare that we would expose if we spoke. To assume that this is a sacred worship language might be perfectly natural, but it’s still an assumption.
Amen! Indeed the devil does not know all. In warfare, you have have spies listening in on conversations to gather information. The devil doesn't read minds, he reads us and listens to us, to find our weaknesses. When we confess evil, he'll make an attempt to fulfill that confession.
A strong conviction is built up through speaking the word of God. We are hearers too of our own voices. If we speak corruption, we hear corruption, and thereby accept corruption. How so?
Again, what we say influences not only others, but our own selves. When we're in pain, don't confess it, but rebuke it. Use the shield of strong conviction against the darts of the enemy. Another way to phrase Proverbs is what you believe in your heart is what you are. If you believe you're a loser, you'll become one because subconsciously you'll act in ways that are destructive because you already believe it to be true. Every coach understands this principle and few Christians do. I learned it in the Air Force. I was a very good weapons shooter because my dad and I learned to site rifles for our neighbors as a weekend project. When I went to the shooting range, I didn't do so good the first time because I "psyched myself out." In other words, the devil said, "I can do that!" and I accepted it, albeit in a fraction of a second. We only got two chances. The Technical Instructor (TI) told me to "see all the holes in the target area, visualize it, believe it." I did, and I got a perfect score and a medal for it. I realized then how much of our actions are influenced by our thoughts and beliefs, and the warfare in our minds.
Then Romans 7 warfare made perfect sense to me.
It literally starts in your head, and ends in your heart. (The whole head to heart process is a wonderful study.)
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 24, 2018 10:12:05 GMT -5
It literally starts in your head, and ends in your heart. (The whole head to heart process is a wonderful study.) Getting it from your mind to your heart is indeed the biggest battle. As a man thinks in his heart, not in his cognition. One thing I’ve learned is that people know what they are told but they believe what they feel. When those two sides are at odds, we end up with what psychologists call cognitive dissonance. A fact we are willing to acknowledge does not reconclile with a convction that drives our behavior. As Jennifer LeClaire once said, your mind is the battlefield but your heart is the prize.
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 24, 2018 10:26:22 GMT -5
and I am wondering did Paul understand what was spoken? He doesn’t say one way or another. We know that praying in tongues is not understandable without translation, so there are indeed times when we’re exposed to words we can’t understand. Yet we also know that translation is possible. So this particular event could have gone either way. Also keep in mind, when the angels came to speak to humans (or humans overheard them talk among themselves) we tend to assume these discussions must have all happened in the human’s native language, but it’s another assumption. Just as dreams, visions, and prophecies usually require interpretation, it would only make sense that conversations in spirit would as well. Yes there are times when angels speak to us in our native language, but they don’t speak English in front of us 24/7.
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 24, 2018 10:36:35 GMT -5
Let’s match this up with what Jesus said about parables. He taught in parables because they were like an encrypted language.
And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. — Matthew 13:10-13
There are many ways to devlop a code language. We humans do it all the time. It may be common words used in uncommon ways (as with parables) or it may be the invention of new words
Why do we do this? Sometimes for security. Sometimes to enjoy a private joke. Sometimes to cultivate brotherhood among a group by sharing private slang. Sometimes because we’re discussing things that have no English vocabulary yet. Whenever you use words as a barrier to hide what you’re saying, you’re dabbling in foreign language territory.
This is why Jesus constantly said “those who have an ear will hear.” Anyone who is tuned in will recognize what’s being said. This happens all over the Bible.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 24, 2018 11:38:20 GMT -5
Let’s match this up with what Jesus said about parables. He taught in parables because they were like an encrypted language. And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given. For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. — Matthew 13:10-13There are many ways to devlop a code language. We humans do it all the time. It may be common words used in uncommon ways (as with parables) or it may be the invention of new words Why do we do this? Sometimes for security. Sometimes to enjoy a private joke. Sometimes to cultivate brotherhood among a group by sharing private slang. Sometimes because we’re discussing things that have no English vocabulary yet. Whenever you use words as a barrier to hide what you’re saying, you’re dabbling in foreign language territory. This is why Jesus constantly said “those who have an ear will hear.” Anyone who is tuned in will recognize what’s being said. This happens all over the Bible.
My wife is from Spain and when we were in Portugal, I discovered that Portuguese is a form of Spanish Pig-Latin so the population could speak "unmentionables" (e.g. pigs) in front of the Moors and it grew into a language. In fact, there are over 11 words in Spanish to describe a pig for this very reason. Jesus said,
When I read that, I think of the events of Elijah that led to him hearing God's "still small voice." Tradition, pride, arrogance, and the flesh block that voice from being heard.
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Post by Giller on Dec 24, 2018 22:02:46 GMT -5
This is what I mentioned in a previous comment: The only way for those words to be unspeakable would be for them to not be human. You could argue that he only meant not lawful as in he’d get in trouble if he said them. But he didn’t say fascinating words not lawful to utter, nor even foreign words not lawful to utter. He said they were downright unspeakable AND not lawful for him to speak if he tried. The Greek word at stake here literally just means “not speak” with no hint of it being because of sacredness. All attempts to spin it into “unspeakably sacred” are adding to the text. Then he says not lawful for man to speak, but it’s a different word. The first half says man cannot say the words, and the second half says men are not permitted to converse or proclaim in those words. It is both practical and legal. We cannot physically speak these words because we weren’t designed to be fluent in whatever they’re saying. For all we know, it could have been an encrypted language of warfare that we would expose if we spoke. To assume that this is a sacred worship language might be perfectly natural, but it’s still an assumption. So I must admit that in this case it does seem to refer to an angelic language because it mentions unspeakable words (as you mentioned). And I find this part that you said interesting: "...The first half says man cannot say the words, and the second half says men are not permitted to converse or proclaim in those words. It is both practical and legal. We cannot physically speak these words because we weren’t designed to be fluent in whatever they’re saying...."
And yes God can give the interpretation of things, as you mentioned in another post concerning speaking in tongues. But this I find is the only scripture that is clear that I know of, in showing forth an unspeakable language. When angels talked to men in the bible, I have never seen a mention of them talking in a language that man did not understand, and none that I am aware of, clearly states this, except the third heaven verses. And also in regards to speaking in tongues, there is no example of when someone speaks in tongues, that they ever spoke in an angelic language. All it mentions are these things: Act 2:4 (4) And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. 1Co 14:2 (2) For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. They can speak in other tongues which are known languages in the world, but not known to the person, or they can speak in an unknown tongue which no man understands period. But biblical wise, there is nothing specific via speaking in angelic tongues, when speaking in tongues. I am just trying to be honest with scripture. And you are probably totally right on your explanation of the third heaven verses, for I cannot find anything that you said which contradicts it. So now the question remains, if Paul could not speak in this angelic language, then can men actually speak in an angelic language? I know some will use the 1 Corinthians 13 scripture, of speaking in tongues of men and of angels, to point that men can, and I will get into that in a bit, which I will show a certain aspect to this. But if you put this verse to the side for now, is there another verse that shows that men can speak in the tongues of angels? Which in Paul's case, in the third heaven verse, it appears that Paul could not?
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Post by Giller on Dec 24, 2018 23:10:03 GMT -5
1Co 13:1-3 (1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
I think it is very important to know how things are said.
And Paul here was giving an exhortation to the church at Corinth.
We have to really think upon what kind of exhortations these were.
It seems that some think that when Paul says that you can do such and such, and have such and such, and have no love, that that means that the person has no love at all, but that is not the case.
Notice who Paul includes in the list, he includes himself in it, he says though I, bestow all my goods to the poor and have no love.
Can we honestly say that Paul did not walk in the love of God? Well of course not.
Not having any love is a present state statement, and not a whole life statement, otherwise Paul would have had no love at all, yet he includes himself in this list, for he says though I bestow all my goods (present tense), and have no love (present tense).
I just wanted to give context to this.
And of course also it does not mean that Paul at this present time was not walking in the love of God either, for it says though I do such and such, and have no love, which it is saying that if we do such and such, but there is no love with it, I am nothing, it profiteth me nothing etc.
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 9:18:10 GMT -5
Not having any love is a present state statement, and not a whole life statement, otherwise Paul would have had no love at all, yet he includes himself in this list, for he says though I bestow all my goods (present tense), and have no love (present tense). I just wanted to give context to this. And of course also it does not mean that Paul at this present time was not walking in the love of God either, for it says though I do such and such, and have no love, which it is saying that if we do such and such, but there is no love with it, I am nothing, it profiteth me nothing etc. I understand the distinction you’re making here. But let me add a wrinkle to the fabric. When you survey all the qualities of love that Paul goes on to list, it’s a much bigger scope than the operation of a gift. He does in fact describe a lifestyle of suffering long, bearing all things, etc. If prophecy will ultimately fail but love will not, then this love is bigger than prophecy. And anyway, I can’t imagine how you could produce this love during the operation of a gift if you were not already living it.
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