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Post by John on Dec 30, 2018 20:39:19 GMT -5
The looking in the mirror part I was especially talking about if one is a male or female. When it comes to salvation, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Jesus didn't come to just save the Jews. He didn't just come to save the gentiles. He didn't just come to save the men. He didn't just come to save the women. Anyone that believes can come to Christ and find forgiveness for their sins and be saved.
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Post by Giller on Dec 30, 2018 23:01:00 GMT -5
The looking in the mirror part I was especially talking about if one is a male or female. When it comes to salvation, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Jesus didn't come to just save the Jews. He didn't just come to save the gentiles. He didn't just come to save the men. He didn't just come to save the women. Anyone that believes can come to Christ and find forgiveness for their sins and be saved.
Amen to that, totally agree, we are all on equal ground, anyone can get saved, no special status.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 9:21:42 GMT -5
The Jews are God's prodigal sons.......still loved for the sake of their faithful ancestors, the patriarchs and OT saints and prophets.......BUT they are still enemies for the gospel sake. By all means show love and kindness to the Jews, and of course do not be arrogant or bigotted against them in any way......but we are not to be unequally yoked with them since they are still unbelievers. Unfortunately the Hebrew roots movement is causing many Christians to be unequally yoked (forming an alliance with them that is not by God's spirit - Is 30:1) with the Jews in a humanistic way. When I got caught up in all that the Lord thankfully rebuked me. The only times He has ever rebuked me has been when it came to my approach to the Jews. I had to lay it on the altar, all that I had believed and all that I had been doing to try and win them to the Lord.....asking the Lord to sift it all, and He has been gracious and faithful to help me get sorted out. It wasn't an easy hook to get out of my heart and it took quite a long time to begin rightly dividing things.
Hebrew roots changes nothing but nothing about the gospel. That blindness in part has only happened until the fullness of the Gentiles...changes nothing whatsoever about the fact that Jewish souls need the gospel NOW lest they perish in their sins long before then. And the gospel that they need is the very same, unaltered gospel that Jesus preached TO THEM, which we also are saved through.
What is worse is that being unequally yoked with the unbelieving Jews/Israel......is of the same ecumenical spirit that unites (yokes) all religions and faiths together.....it is part of the devil's strategy to beguile and seduce Christians to the Antichrist interfaith delusion.
If any have any confusion about these things, they need to truly bring it to the Lord and ask and seek Him concerning it, and He will be faithful to answer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 9:41:35 GMT -5
There have been debates over Israel, Zionism, and replacement theology, where it is said the church as replaced Israel. Many hold to the notion that God has cast Israel away and they were replaced by the Christian church, which has led to a lot of attacks on the nation of Israel and claims it is not legitimate. Some have come to hate people whose ancestors are Jewish, and they blame them for killing the Lord. Then there are those who believe that God deals with the Jews differently than he does Christians who have gentile ancestors. They go so far as to say that some books in the Bible apply to those with Jewish ancestors and others to those who have gentile ancestors. None of this is true. Here is the truth of the matter. There is but one Israel and one Christian church. Lets look at what it says in Romans chapter 11.
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Romans 11:16-18
The people of Israel were God's chosen people, and at one time, the only followers of the true and living God. Israel is represented here as an olive tree. When Jesus came into this world, he was the one God sent to redeem all who would place their trust in him, but sadly, the majority of the Jews rejected him. Not all did, but most. The individuals are the branches. When any of those Jews rejected Jesus, the only way to the Father, they were "broken off." They ceased to be part of this olive tree, and ceased to be Israel. As a result of the majority of the Jews rejecting Christ, the gospel was brought to the gentile nations, and those individuals that came to the Lord were grafted into that tree. The branches that had Jewish ancestors and believed are natural branches in this tree (Israel), and the branches that were grafted in this tree (Israel) with gentile ancestors, are adopted branches. They are all part of the same tree. They are all Israel. There are not two churches, there is one. There are not two group of Christians, there is one. Israel was not replaced. Members of Israel were cut off because of unbelief, and new members became part of Israel because of belief. Israel is the church. The church did not replace Israel. The church became Israel.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity: but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Romans 11:19-22
To the gentiles Christians, they are told that natural branches were broken off because of unbelief and they were grafted in, but not to be highminded. Instead, fear. The Jews were God's chosen people, and yet, he spared not those who didn't believe. If he broke them off because of unbelief, the Christians that were grafted in will be broken off from that tree if they do not "continue in his goodness." Yes, it is possible to be saved, and later cut off if you do not continue following Christ. Yes, if you stop believing, you can be broken off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:23,24
This is saying that if people whose ancestors were Jewish, and they were broken off because of unbelief, if they come to believe in Jesus, and accept him as their Lord and Savior, God will graft them back into the good olive tree. What all of this means is that there is one spiritual Israel, made up of believers who are Jews and Gentiles. There is one body of Christ, made up of believers who are Jews and Gentiles. They are not under different covenants. They are not judged differently. Under the old covenant, a gentile could become part of Israel by believing in Jehovah, and following the law of Moses. Today, a gentile can become part of Israel by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Amen. It seems as though Paul was addressing and correcting a wrong belief and attitude that the Jews had become disqualified for the gospel since they had rejected Jesus....he was letting them know that unbelieving Jews may indeed be saved and grafted into their own tree (salvation is of the Jews) and reminding them that he himself was a Jew who was saved through the gospel. That Jews could now receive mercy from those Gentiles who had obtained mercy by the Jews being blinded.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 9:54:00 GMT -5
Still, the State of Israel, and those non-Messianic Jews there, are still God's chosen people. We just need to rightly divide their status according to scripture........the Lord has rejected them from being a people before Him, as was prophesied.....another way of saying that they really un-chose themselves through their rejection of Christ. So He took the kingdom away from Israel and gave it to a nation bearing the fruits, just as Jesus said would happen. Nevertheless the scriptures also say that God will "yet again choose" them......individually they can be re-chosen (elect) through the gospel now, and also in the end when they look on Him who they pierced and He takes the blinders off them. Until that time, they are unfortunately first going to go under the strong delusion along with all who received not a love of the truth. So we are to love them and not regard them with a bad attitude.......but do not by any means put Israel on a pedestal and follow them. They are still lost and apostate.....they need what we have in Christ, not the other way around.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 10:10:59 GMT -5
Still, the State of Israel, and those non-Messianic Jews there, are still God's chosen people. Yes. They are the natural branches. I support the nation of Israel's right to exist, and not only in that small area they currently occupy, but in all the area that God promised to Abraham.
okay, now here we might be thinking a bit differently. I am thinking that Israel's existence as a nation is God's business so to speak, as He is ruling and reigning and judging and watching over His word to accomplish it etc, but it has nothing to do with our mandate as the church. Our mandate as the church is the gospel and nothing but the gospel. Israel needs the gospel much more than they need our political involvement. God will see that His will and word is accomplished as concerns worldly things. Of course we are to show charity and help those in need and suffering on an individual level, and pray for Israel's salvation and mercies.......but politics always gets the church stuck in the mire. Not to say that Israel isn't a huge marker and sign of the end times......it is certainly prophetic fulfillment......just saying that as the church we are to watch and pray by all means, but not get involved in geopolitical battles. And we have to remember that not all prophetic fulfillment means that everything is good....Israel still has a long way to go before seeing who her Messiah is. It certainly seems likely that she is going to receive the false messiah first, unfortunately, before that day comes. So we must be aware.
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Post by John on Dec 31, 2018 10:31:29 GMT -5
Yes. They are the natural branches. I support the nation of Israel's right to exist, and not only in that small area they currently occupy, but in all the area that God promised to Abraham.
okay, now here we might be thinking a bit differently. I am thinking that Israel's existence as a nation is God's business so to speak, as He is ruling and reigning and judging and watching over His word to accomplish it etc, but it has nothing to do with our mandate as the church. Our mandate as the church is the gospel and nothing but the gospel. Israel needs the gospel much more than they need our political involvement. God will see that His will and word is accomplished as concerns worldly things. Of course we are to show charity and help those in need and suffering on an individual level, and pray for Israel's salvation and mercies.......but politics always gets the church stuck in the mire. Not to say that Israel isn't a huge marker and sign of the end times......it is certainly prophetic fulfillment......just saying that as the church we are to watch and pray by all means, but not get involved in geopolitical battles. And we have to remember that not all prophetic fulfillment means that everything is good....Israel still has a long way to go before seeing who her Messiah is. It certainly seems likely that she is going to receive the false messiah first, unfortunately, before that day comes. So we must be aware. Perhaps we are not seeing this as different as it appears. When I responded to that post, I misread it to say Messianic Jews, not non-Messianic Jews. There are many Messianic Jews living in the land of Israel, even if they are the minority. That land belongs to them.
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Post by John on Dec 31, 2018 11:00:56 GMT -5
It belongs to God's elect, those who are Messianic Jews now, and those God has chosen to save during the great tribulation period.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 11:13:56 GMT -5
okay, now here we might be thinking a bit differently. I am thinking that Israel's existence as a nation is God's business so to speak, as He is ruling and reigning and judging and watching over His word to accomplish it etc, but it has nothing to do with our mandate as the church. Our mandate as the church is the gospel and nothing but the gospel. Israel needs the gospel much more than they need our political involvement. God will see that His will and word is accomplished as concerns worldly things. Of course we are to show charity and help those in need and suffering on an individual level, and pray for Israel's salvation and mercies.......but politics always gets the church stuck in the mire. Not to say that Israel isn't a huge marker and sign of the end times......it is certainly prophetic fulfillment......just saying that as the church we are to watch and pray by all means, but not get involved in geopolitical battles. And we have to remember that not all prophetic fulfillment means that everything is good....Israel still has a long way to go before seeing who her Messiah is. It certainly seems likely that she is going to receive the false messiah first, unfortunately, before that day comes. So we must be aware. Perhaps we are not seeing this as different as it appears. When I responded to that post, I misread it to say Messianic Jews, not non-Messianic Jews. There are many Messianic Jews living in the land of Israel, even if they are the minority. That land belongs to them.
We need to remember that everything that Jesus and the apostles brought through the gospel applies equally to believing Jews as to believing Gentiles. We all are to have our eyes and thoughts above rather than on earthly things. Believing Jews can live in the land but should not be enamoured with it or willing to kill to keep it....all followers of Christ are to love our enemies. So I believe all believers should just leave it to God who ends up with what...and since it is all temporal anyhow. But for His purposes in the meantime, He is going to fulfill all of His word and doesn't need our help to do so, as such. We just get to watch and be amazed at the Lord.....and also awake and aware of the subtle wiles of the devil....who is pulling out all the stops to deceive and distract us from our mission and to draw and entice our hearts away from what really matters. To the best of the understanding that I have thus far, the Israeli government like any governing authority has a mandate to act lawfully in the best interests of their nation and citizens....Gentile and Jewish believers can pray for the Israeli government leaders.....but as soldiers in another kind of war neither Jew nor Gentile believer should get involved in civil affairs if we want to please our commanding officer, Jesus/Yeshua. All these scriptures apply equally to both Jewish and Gentile believers. And we have the example of Jesus who was on earth at a time when Israel was under Roman rule and oppression.....and He did not concern Himself with it one iota....all He did was to keep on preaching the gospel of another kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. He even had to flee the people who were trying to make Him king of earthly Israel, in order to remain in obedience to the Father.
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Post by John on Dec 31, 2018 11:30:42 GMT -5
Perhaps we are not seeing this as different as it appears. When I responded to that post, I misread it to say Messianic Jews, not non-Messianic Jews. There are many Messianic Jews living in the land of Israel, even if they are the minority. That land belongs to them.
We need to remember that everything that Jesus and the apostles brought through the gospel applies equally to believing Jews as to believing Gentiles. We all are to have our eyes and thoughts above rather than on earthly things. Believing Jews can live in the land but should not be enamoured with it or willing to kill to keep it....all followers of Christ are to love our enemies. So I believe all believers should just leave it to God who ends up with what...and since it is all temporal anyhow. But for His purposes in the meantime, He is going to fulfill all of His word and doesn't need our help to do so, as such. We just get to watch and be amazed at the Lord.....and also awake and aware of the subtle wiles of the devil....who is pulling out all the stops to deceive and distract us from our mission and to draw and entice our hearts away from what really matters. To the best of the understanding that I have thus far, the Israeli government like any governing authority has a mandate to act lawfully in the best interests of their nation and citizens....Gentile and Jewish believers can pray for the Israeli government leaders.....but as soldiers in another kind of war neither Jew nor Gentile believer should get involved in civil affairs if we want to please our commanding officer, Jesus/Yeshua. All these scriptures apply equally to both Jewish and Gentile believers. And we have the example of Jesus who was on earth at a time when Israel was under Roman rule and oppression.....and He did not concern Himself with it one iota....all He did was to keep on preaching the gospel of another kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. He even had to flee the people who were trying to make Him king of earthly Israel, in order to remain in obedience to the Father. That is really a different issue, more along the lines of what is expected of Israeli citizens. Are they expected to serve in the military? I don't know the answer to that question.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 31, 2018 13:26:41 GMT -5
That is really a different issue, more along the lines of what is expected of Israeli citizens. Are they expected to serve in the military? I don't know the answer to that question.
As I understand it, service is mandatory in some fashion or another. I have an Israeli friend and his kids served, one in the IDF and another in mission work in Ethiopia. The son, youngest, is still too young. I just texted him to verify. I'll let you know what he says.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 31, 2018 14:17:47 GMT -5
Yes, my friend said that at 18, boys serve 3 years (soon to become 2 years and 8 months) and for girls, 2 years, and it's mandatory service.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 31, 2018 14:54:41 GMT -5
We need to remember that everything that Jesus and the apostles brought through the gospel applies equally to believing Jews as to believing Gentiles. We all are to have our eyes and thoughts above rather than on earthly things. Believing Jews can live in the land but should not be enamoured with it or willing to kill to keep it....all followers of Christ are to love our enemies. So I believe all believers should just leave it to God who ends up with what...and since it is all temporal anyhow. But for His purposes in the meantime, He is going to fulfill all of His word and doesn't need our help to do so, as such. We just get to watch and be amazed at the Lord.....and also awake and aware of the subtle wiles of the devil....who is pulling out all the stops to deceive and distract us from our mission and to draw and entice our hearts away from what really matters. To the best of the understanding that I have thus far, the Israeli government like any governing authority has a mandate to act lawfully in the best interests of their nation and citizens....Gentile and Jewish believers can pray for the Israeli government leaders.....but as soldiers in another kind of war neither Jew nor Gentile believer should get involved in civil affairs if we want to please our commanding officer, Jesus/Yeshua. All these scriptures apply equally to both Jewish and Gentile believers. And we have the example of Jesus who was on earth at a time when Israel was under Roman rule and oppression.....and He did not concern Himself with it one iota....all He did was to keep on preaching the gospel of another kingdom, the kingdom of heaven. He even had to flee the people who were trying to make Him king of earthly Israel, in order to remain in obedience to the Father. That is really a different issue, more along the lines of what is expected of Israeli citizens. Are they expected to serve in the military? I don't know the answer to that question.
I was thinking more along the lines of the politics and taking sides in one's heart.....what is God's will for believing Jews, rather than what the government's will might be. Believing Jews are pilgrims passing through this life and have their citizenship in heaven just as much as believing Gentiles......just like Gentile believers they are to be in the world but not of it. All those truths apply to them every bit as much as to us goyim. And also keeping in mind that there is none righteous in a world of lost souls, neither Israel nor the Palestinians, and we are not to be respecters of persons. Having said that......the Jews/Israel certainly ARE loved for the sake of their forefathers and not forgotten by God.....but just that I believe we should not take that too far to the point of violating other truths. But yes....the whole issue of military service for believers is probably a can of worms for another thread.
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Post by John on Dec 31, 2018 15:24:08 GMT -5
That is really a different issue, more along the lines of what is expected of Israeli citizens. Are they expected to serve in the military? I don't know the answer to that question.
I was thinking more along the lines of the politics and taking sides in one's heart.....what is God's will for believing Jews, rather than what the government's will might be. Believing Jews are pilgrims passing through this life and have their citizenship in heaven just as much as believing Gentiles......just like Gentile believers they are to be in the world but not of it. All those truths apply to them every bit as much as to us goyim. And also keeping in mind that there is none righteous in a world of lost souls, neither Israel nor the Palestinians, and we are not to be respecters of persons. Having said that......the Jews/Israel certainly ARE loved for the sake of their forefathers and not forgotten by God.....but just that I believe we should not take that too far to the point of violating other truths. But yes....the whole issue of military service for believers is probably a can of worms for another thread. The land of Israel, which makes up a great deal more area than the nation occupies today, was given as an eternal inheritance to Abraham and his children through the child of promise Isaac. As such, I have to take Israel's side in the dispute over the land based on scripture. It has nothing to do with respecting persons. but believing what God said about that land.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 31, 2018 15:42:13 GMT -5
When it comes to salvation, the ground is level at the foot of the cross. Jesus didn't come to just save the Jews. He didn't just come to save the gentiles. He didn't just come to save the men. He didn't just come to save the women. Anyone that believes can come to Christ and find forgiveness for their sins and be saved.
Amen to that, totally agree, we are all on equal ground, anyone can get saved, no special status. AMEN , anyone whether jew or gentile who comes to Christ shall be saved . BUT ANYONE whether jew or gentile who rejects so great a salvation , GONNA BE Damned . Now that we know this , lets kick the john haggies and those who refuse to witness to jews , OUTTA THEIR SEATS and get the only name that saves , JESUS CHRIST HIS GOSPLE back at the FOREFRONT . Preach it as JESUS said . TO ALL nations as well as THE JEWS . EVERYTHING THAT BREATHES AIR . AMEN . NOW leap up giller . I wanna see hands raised and the LORD praised . OH RAISE those hands one and all and just praise the LORD . I leave us with the words FIRST OF JESUS then of a born again jew paul. YE shall die in your sins , FOR if you BELEIVE NOT that I AM HE , YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS . and now from a true born again jew named paul . He is a jew which is one whose circumcision is not of the letter but of the heart . Not all Israel is of Israel . The children of the flesh , ARE NOT the children of GOD . Seems paul knew jews as well as gentiles who believed not would be damned . and now from two true jews , barnabas and paul , SINCE YOU count yourselves UNWORTHY of EVERLASTING LIFE , lo we turn to the gentiles . UH , yeah . early church who also believed JESUS coming was nigh , SEEMED to always say , NO JESUS NO LIFE only the WRATH OF GOD . whether jew , or whether gentile. HOW BOUT we get back to the original live saving gospel . NOW leap up giller and praise the LORD .
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