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Post by John on Dec 22, 2018 16:32:46 GMT -5
There have been debates over Israel, Zionism, and replacement theology, where it is said the church as replaced Israel. Many hold to the notion that God has cast Israel away and they were replaced by the Christian church, which has led to a lot of attacks on the nation of Israel and claims it is not legitimate. Some have come to hate people whose ancestors are Jewish, and they blame them for killing the Lord. Then there are those who believe that God deals with the Jews differently than he does Christians who have gentile ancestors. They go so far as to say that some books in the Bible apply to those with Jewish ancestors and others to those who have gentile ancestors. None of this is true. Here is the truth of the matter. There is but one Israel and one Christian church. Lets look at what it says in Romans chapter 11.
For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some be broken off, and thou being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakes of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Romans 11:16-18
The people of Israel were God's chosen people, and at one time, the only followers of the true and living God. Israel is represented here as an olive tree. When Jesus came into this world, he was the one God sent to redeem all who would place their trust in him, but sadly, the majority of the Jews rejected him. Not all did, but most. The individuals are the branches. When any of those Jews rejected Jesus, the only way to the Father, they were "broken off." They ceased to be part of this olive tree, and ceased to be Israel. As a result of the majority of the Jews rejecting Christ, the gospel was brought to the gentile nations, and those individuals that came to the Lord were grafted into that tree. The branches that had Jewish ancestors and believed are natural branches in this tree (Israel), and the branches that were grafted in this tree (Israel) with gentile ancestors, are adopted branches. They are all part of the same tree. They are all Israel. There are not two churches, there is one. There are not two group of Christians, there is one. Israel was not replaced. Members of Israel were cut off because of unbelief, and new members became part of Israel because of belief. Israel is the church. The church did not replace Israel. The church became Israel.
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity: but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. Romans 11:19-22
To the gentiles Christians, they are told that natural branches were broken off because of unbelief and they were grafted in, but not to be highminded. Instead, fear. The Jews were God's chosen people, and yet, he spared not those who didn't believe. If he broke them off because of unbelief, the Christians that were grafted in will be broken off from that tree if they do not "continue in his goodness." Yes, it is possible to be saved, and later cut off if you do not continue following Christ. Yes, if you stop believing, you can be broken off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? Romans 11:23,24
This is saying that if people whose ancestors were Jewish, and they were broken off because of unbelief, if they come to believe in Jesus, and accept him as their Lord and Savior, God will graft them back into the good olive tree. What all of this means is that there is one spiritual Israel, made up of believers who are Jews and Gentiles. There is one body of Christ, made up of believers who are Jews and Gentiles. They are not under different covenants. They are not judged differently. Under the old covenant, a gentile could become part of Israel by believing in Jehovah, and following the law of Moses. Today, a gentile can become part of Israel by accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 22, 2018 20:08:49 GMT -5
There are not two group of Christians, there is one. Israel was not replaced.
Yes, I agree.
"but the Jerusalem above is free, which is the mother of us all." - Galatians 4:26
"having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace..." - Ephesians 2:15
Christians are those who believe in Jesus and have His Spirit in them.
"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh..." - Philippians 3:3
"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love." - 1 Corinthians 7:19
"Owe no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law." - Romans 13:8
Yes, those who believe in Jesus and have His Spirit.
"In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise..." - Ephesians 1:13
"...Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." - Romans 8:9
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Post by frienduff on Dec 22, 2018 21:48:11 GMT -5
And how much clearer too . For paul even said they are not ALL isael who are of natural Israel . ONLY those who believe IN JESUS are of Israel . And others not of this fold of jewish sheep , I must bring , the gentile believers and they shall be ONE FOLD . ONE SHEPARD over them . God told Abraham this too . The promise to the FATHERS WAS JESUS . IF folks don't like that , they aint gonna make it . Natural Israel has it capital , JERSUALEM . but the natural is not of the promise . HEAVENLY ISRAEL has ITS HEAVENLY JERSUSALEM . And both jews and gentiles who believe are ON in CHRIST , in that city . Which for now is above and by SPIRIT is within us as well . I catch a man preaching the flesh of any group , REST assured that will be a REBUKED MAN . for the flesh of man profits him nothing . YE MUST beborn again . NOw leap up and praise the LORD.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 0:06:05 GMT -5
Still, the State of Israel, and those non-Messianic Jews there, are still God's chosen people.
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Post by John on Dec 23, 2018 0:14:09 GMT -5
Still, the State of Israel, and those non-Messianic Jews there, are still God's chosen people. Yes. They are the natural branches. I support the nation of Israel's right to exist, and not only in that small area they currently occupy, but in all the area that God promised to Abraham.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 23, 2018 9:32:00 GMT -5
As I see it, the branch we are grafted into is the Jewish religion/heritage embodied by the state of Israel. Not each individual Jew is saved. There’s no particular benefit to physically being born Jewish, but there’s great benefit to finding Jesus within the Jewish framework. Christians can easily overlook how much of our teaching was built on OT concepts. A Jew can’t get to God without Jesus, and we can’t get to Jesus without seeing His plan in Judasim.
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. — Romans 1:16
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 23, 2018 11:31:34 GMT -5
Being chosen doesn't make you saved. We all must go to God with a changed mindset towards Him. God will always protect Israel, the land and the people with a remnant. When the world rejects Israel and Ezekiel 38-39 happens, God will come to their rescue even if they rejected His Son. We know also that they'll be saved when they ask the Messiah about His marks, Zechariah 13, and they will call upon His Name.
The Jews are promised blessings on earth, which they do, outside of persecution. Here's an example:
As to anyone's salvation: A lot of beliefs by Christians are based on replacement theology, even if it's veiled. In the end, salvation is the same before and after the crucifixion - by trusting in God, calling upon Him.
There is a great revival going on among the Jewish Orthodox community. Jesus is appearing to them Himself because they'd never listen to Christians. Many of the prominent rabbis are now Christians and there is a lot of evidence that Benjamin Netanyahu is also a Christian. Research Rabbi Kaduri's parting message. Here's a video: Ariel Sharon died 11 January 2014.
Here is a video on the Name of the Son of God:
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Post by Giller on Dec 29, 2018 10:34:58 GMT -5
On one hand there is the nation of Israel, but of course only they who believe shall be saved, but on the other hand it says this:
Rom 2:25-29 (25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
When we become born again, whether Jew or Gentile, we all become circumcised in heart.
And of course the bible also says this:
Gal 3:27-29 (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
It is not that one ceases to be male or female or a Jew physically for other scriptures show that, and also looking in the mirror will show that, but in Christ it is not based upon being male or female , Jew or Greek, none of these give you special status, for we are all one in Christ, and if you be in Christ whether Jew or Gentile, then ye are Abraham's seed, and Jews inwardly or spiritually.
That is right there is only one church, and not two churches.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 29, 2018 17:31:00 GMT -5
And though Rome tries to claim she is that one church . FLEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE HER . She is of total darkness .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 29, 2018 17:32:39 GMT -5
Just another quick reminder . JESUS IS LORD , let all who name the name of Christ depart from inquity , AND PRAISE THE HOLY LORD . We know what time it is , LORD PRAISING TIME .
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 29, 2018 22:10:09 GMT -5
On one hand there is the nation of Israel, but of course only they who believe shall be saved, but on the other hand it says this: Rom 2:25-29 (25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. When we become born again, whether Jew or Gentile, we all become circumcised in heart. And of course the bible also says this: Gal 3:27-29 (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It is not that one ceases to be male or female or a Jew physically for other scriptures show that, and also looking in the mirror will show that, but in Christ it is not based upon being male or female , Jew or Greek, none of these give you special status, for we are all one in Christ, and if you be in Christ whether Jew or Gentile, then ye are Abraham's seed, and Jews inwardly or spiritually. That is right there is only one church, and not two churches.
I didn't say there are two churches. I'm not sure where this is coming from. I'm talking about the nation of Israel that God Himself will save from the kings of the North as a promise to Abraham in Ezekiel 38-39 and despite all the pogroms against them, God has still preserved them. The need in the proof of God's existence is proven in seeing a living Jew. They will see Jesus and ask Him where He got His scars and He'll tell them, the house of my brothers, and they'll believe. There are believers all over the planet that do not know His name. God searches the heart, not the denomination or nationality. Jews are blinded by Moses' teaching, but they must still live by faith just as we do. They hold to their traditions just as many Christians do despite the evidence - like a Sunday Resurrection when it happened on the Sabbath. Don't think for a moment that one showing religion saves them. God ponders their heart. If you give tithes regularly with a sense of pride, then you have your reward. God ponders the heart. There are far better Christians in the world than a lot of so-called "Christians" aka building attendees. Like it or not, God's chosen people are still the Jews. Paul warned those who believed otherwise.
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Post by Giller on Dec 29, 2018 22:56:58 GMT -5
On one hand there is the nation of Israel, but of course only they who believe shall be saved, but on the other hand it says this: Rom 2:25-29 (25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. When we become born again, whether Jew or Gentile, we all become circumcised in heart. And of course the bible also says this: Gal 3:27-29 (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It is not that one ceases to be male or female or a Jew physically for other scriptures show that, and also looking in the mirror will show that, but in Christ it is not based upon being male or female , Jew or Greek, none of these give you special status, for we are all one in Christ, and if you be in Christ whether Jew or Gentile, then ye are Abraham's seed, and Jews inwardly or spiritually. That is right there is only one church, and not two churches.
I didn't say there are two churches. I'm not sure where this is coming from. I'm talking about the nation of Israel that God Himself will save from the kings of the North as a promise to Abraham in Ezekiel 38-39 and despite all the pogroms against them, God has still preserved them. The need in the proof of God's existence is proven in seeing a living Jew. They will see Jesus and ask Him where He got His scars and He'll tell them, the house of my brothers, and they'll believe. There are believers all over the planet that do not know His name. God searches the heart, not the denomination or nationality. Jews are blinded by Moses' teaching, but they must still live by faith just as we do. They hold to their traditions just as many Christians do despite the evidence - like a Sunday Resurrection when it happened on the Sabbath. Don't think for a moment that one showing religion saves them. God ponders their heart. If you give tithes regularly with a sense of pride, then you have your reward. God ponders the heart. There are far better Christians in the world than a lot of so-called "Christians" aka building attendees. Like it or not, God's chosen people are still the Jews. Paul warned those who believed otherwise.
I never said that you said that there are two churches, and yes Israel is still God's chosen people.
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 30, 2018 0:29:10 GMT -5
I didn't say there are two churches. I'm not sure where this is coming from. I'm talking about the nation of Israel that God Himself will save from the kings of the North as a promise to Abraham in Ezekiel 38-39 and despite all the pogroms against them, God has still preserved them. The need in the proof of God's existence is proven in seeing a living Jew. They will see Jesus and ask Him where He got His scars and He'll tell them, the house of my brothers, and they'll believe. There are believers all over the planet that do not know His name. God searches the heart, not the denomination or nationality. Jews are blinded by Moses' teaching, but they must still live by faith just as we do. They hold to their traditions just as many Christians do despite the evidence - like a Sunday Resurrection when it happened on the Sabbath. Don't think for a moment that one showing religion saves them. God ponders their heart. If you give tithes regularly with a sense of pride, then you have your reward. God ponders the heart. There are far better Christians in the world than a lot of so-called "Christians" aka building attendees. Like it or not, God's chosen people are still the Jews. Paul warned those who believed otherwise.
I never said that you said that there are two churches, and yes Israel is still God's chosen people.
Part of a conversation is to use the reply button or tag them. Then the assumption you're replying to someone isn't, well, assumed.
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Post by John on Dec 30, 2018 20:30:18 GMT -5
On one hand there is the nation of Israel, but of course only they who believe shall be saved, but on the other hand it says this: Rom 2:25-29 (25) For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision. (26) Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision? (27) And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law? (28) For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: (29) But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. When we become born again, whether Jew or Gentile, we all become circumcised in heart. And of course the bible also says this: Gal 3:27-29 (27) For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (28) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (29) And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise. It is not that one ceases to be male or female or a Jew physically for other scriptures show that, and also looking in the mirror will show that, but in Christ it is not based upon being male or female , Jew or Greek, none of these give you special status, for we are all one in Christ, and if you be in Christ whether Jew or Gentile, then ye are Abraham's seed, and Jews inwardly or spiritually. That is right there is only one church, and not two churches. If a white couple were to adopt a child from Africa, that child won't suddenly be physically looking like his or her adoptive parents. If I was to adopt a child from China, that child would not suddenly look American. At the same time, when anyone adopts a child, they are legally their child, and just as much their child as any natural children they have. The same thing happens when a gentile gets saved. They become adopted into the same family as the believing Jews. There is but one church and one spiritual tree.
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Post by Giller on Dec 30, 2018 20:35:40 GMT -5
The looking in the mirror part I was especially talking about if one is a male or female.
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