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Post by frienduff on Feb 19, 2021 10:21:35 GMT -5
It was noted , that a few prisoners had said that Betsy often talked about Heaven as though she had already seen it . YEAH . Her heart was set above . SHE KNEW where HOME REALLY IS .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 19, 2021 10:25:16 GMT -5
Sister, I wouldn't call Paul any of those things because I'm sure he didn't do anything from a spirit of meanness, just as I'm sure he wasn't threatening violence against anyone. Yes there are those we are not to fellowship with under certain circumstances (I mentioned that in my previous post here recently). But Jesus IS trying to tell us something here and we need the mind of Christ to understand how authority in the world and spiritual authority differ: Mat 20:24-28 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Also Mark 10 and Luke 22) 2Ti 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. I was reacting to your statement that Christians can't hold each other accountable. I reject the idea that it's somehow not spiritual to obey people in authority. Or that friends/peers can't submit to bearing with each other for the sake of mutual edification. There's nothing spiritual about saying we have no one to answer to. Correct sister . we are to be our brethrens keeper . For it is HE who works among the entire Body , that works through each member . We are to look out for one another . And that means rebuking and correcting . For the SPIRIT of the LORD works amongst the lambs . We are one with HIM and HE with GOD . Remember JESUS own words . That they may be ONE even as WE are ONE . AND GOD chastens those HE does love . THUS by the SPIRIT we too would be on guard and looking out for the lambs , for one another .
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Post by watchful on Feb 19, 2021 11:13:33 GMT -5
Sister, I wouldn't call Paul any of those things because I'm sure he didn't do anything from a spirit of meanness, just as I'm sure he wasn't threatening violence against anyone. Yes there are those we are not to fellowship with under certain circumstances (I mentioned that in my previous post here recently). But Jesus IS trying to tell us something here and we need the mind of Christ to understand how authority in the world and spiritual authority differ: Mat 20:24-28 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. (Also Mark 10 and Luke 22) 2Ti 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. I was reacting to your statement that Christians can't hold each other accountable. I reject the idea that it's somehow not spiritual to obey people in authority. Or that friends/peers can't submit to bearing with each other for the sake of mutual edification. There's nothing spiritual about saying we have no one to answer to. Seems to be a misunderstanding about what I'm getting at sister.....I'm talking about the difference between flesh and spirit. The flesh profits nothing. There is a difference between fleshly authority and spiritual authority. Exercising fleshly authority over others in the church leads to cultishness and an antichrist situation...as per the Catholic institution and most church formats. Even to the point where the control and domination exercised by those in authority can be demonic...witchcraft and mind control. The priests bear rule by THEIR means and the people love to have it so. I hope we agree that the body of Christ should be a spiritual body and not a fleshly one. Well, guess I will just leave that scripture I posted in my previous post for anyone to ponder if they wish. This is a nice little one as well: 2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 19, 2021 11:42:26 GMT -5
I was reacting to your statement that Christians can't hold each other accountable. I reject the idea that it's somehow not spiritual to obey people in authority. Or that friends/peers can't submit to bearing with each other for the sake of mutual edification. There's nothing spiritual about saying we have no one to answer to. Seems to be a misunderstanding about what I'm getting at sister.....I'm talking about the difference between flesh and spirit. The flesh profits nothing. There is a difference between fleshly authority and spiritual authority. Exercising fleshly authority over others in the church leads to cultishness and an antichrist situation...as per the Catholic institution and most church formats. Even to the point where the control and domination exercised by those in authority can be demonic...witchcraft and mind control. The priests bear rule by THEIR means and the people love to have it so. I hope we agree that the body of Christ should be a spiritual body and not a fleshly one. Well, guess I will just leave that scripture I posted in my previous post for anyone to ponder if they wish. This is a nice little one as well: 2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. I'm not trying to needle you. I really think I don't understand what you're getting at. Let's start from brass tacks and work our way up. A dad tells his son to do his homework before bed. The Bible says to honor our parents and be subject them to them in the home. Is it a fleshly work that profits nothing for the son to obey his dad? If that was the case, why does the New Testament compel children to obey their parents in practical ways? As I see it, obedience and accountability in human relations force us to seek the Lord concerning those qualities, and they play a part in helping us learn to obey God. Rebellious people in the "flesh" usually rebel against God in the end. We all agree that spiritual power and authority are the end goal. But rebellious self-absorbed people do not go from 0 to 60. I've actually been in prayer meetings with people where the Lord spoke prophetically to give them a word, they politely listened, and it went in one ear and out the other. Surprise surprise, these people tend to be headstrong in the flesh.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 19, 2021 12:02:55 GMT -5
I was reacting to your statement that Christians can't hold each other accountable. I reject the idea that it's somehow not spiritual to obey people in authority. Or that friends/peers can't submit to bearing with each other for the sake of mutual edification. There's nothing spiritual about saying we have no one to answer to. Seems to be a misunderstanding about what I'm getting at sister.....I'm talking about the difference between flesh and spirit. The flesh profits nothing. There is a difference between fleshly authority and spiritual authority. Exercising fleshly authority over others in the church leads to cultishness and an antichrist situation...as per the Catholic institution and most church formats. Even to the point where the control and domination exercised by those in authority can be demonic...witchcraft and mind control. The priests bear rule by THEIR means and the people love to have it so. I hope we agree that the body of Christ should be a spiritual body and not a fleshly one. Well, guess I will just leave that scripture I posted in my previous post for anyone to ponder if they wish. This is a nice little one as well: 2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. Yeah i know what you mean too sister . you speak of those who LORD it over the flock , as though the flock is there to SERVE THEM . WHEN IN TRUTH any true leader of any church , IS THERE TO SERVE THE CHURCH . JUST as did our LORD . And to serve means to correct as well . for it is by love we are looking out for the flock . But yeah , i think you might have been misunderstood . You were talking about the fleshly side . AND woe WOE THERE by many who work by the flesh . AND YE shall know them by their actions . He who LORDS OVER the flock is he who serves THE FLESH . AND these can be spotted quite well . For they set themselves up as some great thing , NOT JESUS , Their empires show this as well . For they build and heap and heap and build up their own material castles . OUR LORD did not do this . HE lived no better than his flock . And if we think paul , peter or john , james or jude did , NO they did not . THEY were too busying looking out for the church and suffering for the preaching of the gospel , And not focusing on their empire , but the needs of the people FIRST and FOREMOST . MANY have LONG , LONG forgotten , OR NEVER KNEW this . OH but onward in the LORD let the lambs march .
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Post by frienduff on Feb 19, 2021 12:09:01 GMT -5
It is high time and time indeed that we start learning the biblical JESUS for ourselves . Be focused on learning the sound doctrine . And be looking out for one another and building one another up by the wholesome pure words , wonderous biblical truth . And if any does have a word let it be tested by all the others . We make our final stand now , or fall many will . We are engrossed in heavy deceptions all around us . The leaders of many have failed them and lulled them to sleep with lies . And worse many have loved to have it so . But we must be on gaurd and be our brethrens keeper . FOR IT IS the SPIRIT OF GOD at work amonst the lambs to edify the lambs . FORWARD MARCH cause the battle is gonna magnify massive in the days ahead . FOLLOW CHRIST , AKA it better be the BIBLICAL ONE or the end wont be good .
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Post by watchful on Feb 19, 2021 14:21:09 GMT -5
Seems to be a misunderstanding about what I'm getting at sister.....I'm talking about the difference between flesh and spirit. The flesh profits nothing. There is a difference between fleshly authority and spiritual authority. Exercising fleshly authority over others in the church leads to cultishness and an antichrist situation...as per the Catholic institution and most church formats. Even to the point where the control and domination exercised by those in authority can be demonic...witchcraft and mind control. The priests bear rule by THEIR means and the people love to have it so. I hope we agree that the body of Christ should be a spiritual body and not a fleshly one. Well, guess I will just leave that scripture I posted in my previous post for anyone to ponder if they wish. This is a nice little one as well: 2Co 1:24 Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand. I'm not trying to needle you. I really think I don't understand what you're getting at. Let's start from brass tacks and work our way up. A dad tells his son to do his homework before bed. The Bible says to honor our parents and be subject them to them in the home. Is it a fleshly work that profits nothing for the son to obey his dad? If that was the case, why does the New Testament compel children to obey their parents in practical ways? As I see it, obedience and accountability in human relations force us to seek the Lord concerning those qualities, and they play a part in helping us learn to obey God. Rebellious people in the "flesh" usually rebel against God in the end. We all agree that spiritual power and authority are the end goal. But rebellious self-absorbed people do not go from 0 to 60. I've actually been in prayer meetings with people where the Lord spoke prophetically to give them a word, they politely listened, and it went in one ear and out the other. Surprise surprise, these people tend to be headstrong in the flesh. I don't really know how to "explain" this very well.....there are things that need to be caught rather than taught, as the saying goes. All I can suggest is meditating on that passage of scripture (it's in three gospels..three witnesses of scripture) and asking the Lord what He means by it. Matthew 20, Mark 10, Luke 22.
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ohhello
Senior Member
Global Moderator
Let us rejoice in the Lord Jesus!
Posts: 6,304
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Post by ohhello on Feb 19, 2021 14:30:51 GMT -5
I want us all to ponder on something . A lady named corrie ten boom and her sister betsy were in prison for helping hide jews . While in prison betsy got very sick . Before she died she told corrie that by that years end they were both going to be set free from that prison . Betsy soon died in prison . Corrie was later released and right before that years end . Now some might argue and say that only corrie was set free from the prison , but i tell us all , THEY both were . AND betsy was set free with such a freedom that not even corrie would recieve till many years later . You see , BETSY was set free from that prison , even from her own body the moment SHE WENT to be with the LORD . YEAH . FEAST on that . To be absent from the body is to be present with the LORD . Wonderful reminder. One day all the lambs will forever be with Jesus. We will be completely free, in the Lord. At home with Him. Forever.
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Post by watchful on Feb 19, 2021 14:41:38 GMT -5
It is high time and time indeed that we start learning the biblical JESUS for ourselves . Be focused on learning the sound doctrine . And be looking out for one another and building one another up by the wholesome pure words , wonderous biblical truth . And if any does have a word let it be tested by all the others . We make our final stand now , or fall many will . We are engrossed in heavy deceptions all around us . The leaders of many have failed them and lulled them to sleep with lies . And worse many have loved to have it so . But we must be on gaurd and be our brethrens keeper . FOR IT IS the SPIRIT OF GOD at work amonst the lambs to edify the lambs . FORWARD MARCH cause the battle is gonna magnify massive in the days ahead . FOLLOW CHRIST , AKA it better be the BIBLICAL ONE or the end wont be good . What I've been trying to share regarding authority in the church, I believe IS sound biblical doctrine, and very important doctrine, so as long as nobody is feeling like it's something to be dismissed lightly, then amen. We've had some conversations before about how problems don't usually start out as being big or obvious, but as a little leaven that eventually can grow into a monster loaf. The issue of church authority is important, since that has to do with leadership, which affects the many souls under them. This is something that distinguishes between how the false Babylon church functions as opposed to the true body of Christ, so I consider it's vital to get hold of and have it written on our hearts.
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Post by John on Feb 23, 2021 17:33:46 GMT -5
There is this anti-denominational argument going around, and those who support denominations will sometimes point to Paul's authority over a group of churches, while others question if he really had real authority over them. I agree that this is nothing anyone should be arguing over, and me and Giller are not arguing at all. If someone has a question about anything in the Bible, if they are sincere, and not just trying to be funny or sarcastic, I am happy to discuss it with them.
As far as the "covering" thing goes, when you have someone you are accountable to for your conduct, to me, that is a type of covering. In denominational churches, the headquarters acts as a covering for the churches in their organization. That is where all of this comes in, and over the years, I have heard people argue this point. Do not forget that the RCC claims Peter was the first Pope, and if someone is going to make that ridiculous claim, I do not see this question as any more absurd. People try to use the Bible for all kind of things and they will pervert the scriptures to do it.
Well God is good, and I am glad at least we were able to discuss it, but concerning the covering thing, can you prove it by scripture that a man can be covered by another man, because in the end we have to go by what the scriptures say. We need to examine at times what we defend, and understand what we are defending at times, and compare with scriptures. Now the bible does say this: 1Pe 5:5 (5) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. There is a type of subjection towards leaders, and towards one another, but I see nothing about a church being someone's covering and so on, just want to be honest with what the word of God says, and I like it when people show biblical proof of things, then you know it fits with the mind of Christ. That is my concern. I am not aware of any scriptures that tell us that we must have a covering, in the sense of denominations and things like that, but neither do I think we are forbidden to set things like that up. I do think that the denominational systems are build on the idea of overseers that are in charge of more than one congregation, and it seems to me that the Apostle Paul was over a group of churches. For me, I am not pro-denomination or anti-denomination. I can see benefits and problems in those kind of systems. On the good side, they do promote accountability and there is an established doctrine. On the negative side, like with any type of government, over time, they often become corrupt. Also, the established doctrine will have errors that are continually repeated.
In the case of the Apostle Paul, he clearly seemed to be an overseer of those churches. I suppose that the question I need to ask you is, what is a covering to you? Is an overseer a covering? In a home, the husband is overseer of his family, and a type of covering. In businesses, those in charge are overseers and provide a type of covering. The buck stops with the one in charge. What is a covering to you, and if you think that Paul was not providing a type of covering to those churches, what was his role?
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Post by John on Feb 23, 2021 17:41:52 GMT -5
I’m learning that we need to be careful because we have all learned concepts that aren’t really in the bible, but are constructs of our curious and busy natural mind, and I am guilty as charged. For example, it finally dawned on me that the concept of free will isn’t actually a term or concept found in the bible, and that’s why arguing about that is kind of a wild goose chase….it leads us off track. We need to bring all our thoughts captive to the word of God and not go beyond what is written. The concept of being accountable to someone isn’t actually in the bible either, as relating to the church body. This is not easy to get hold of, but the Lord is not asking anyone to hold anyone else accountable to them, since the bible says leadership in the church is not to exercise authority upon others like the heathen do. In other words authority in the church is spiritual, not carnal like one has a boss at work or a higher rank in the military who gives you orders. The church is not to be a carnal organization like that….like the example of the RCC and papacy was brought up. We are to be a spiritual Body…..submissive of leadership, as unto the Lord in obedience to HIM. Our accountability is to the Lord. It is not for church leadership to intimidate or manipulate or force people into that….on the contrary, who would be great among you must be servant of all. God’s ways are not man’s ways, not the ways of flesh and this world. Here is something the bible says about covering though: Isa 30:1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering, but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin (Happens that I have meditated a lot on that and surrounding scriptures a lot in recent years, so that’s why I’m familiar with it.) So Jesus is our covering, and by His Spirit. Whatever covering there is needs to be in spirit, not a carnal fleshly thing. But I believe there is more to this, except I don’t’ have the words for it yet. In marriage a man covers his wife with his garment, and this is a picture of Christ and the church. It speaks of protection and hiddeness since she is under his authority and since he has authority he is responsible for her welfare. We have the wrong idea of spiritual authority sometimes, or maybe we only look at one side of it. It’s not about subjugating and ordering people around, it’s something deeper that is for their good. He who receives a righteous man receives a righteous man’s reward, and he who receives a prophet in my name receives a prophet’s reward, comes to mind with this. Anyway, that part is still a work in progress for me, but hope the rest might be helpful with this topic. Now we must come back full circle to the question I asked earlier. Did the Apostle Paul have real authority over those churches he wrote to? Were they under any obligation to listen to what he said? If they refused, were there consequences? If the Apostle Paul had real authority, and he told the churches something wrong, if they messed up in following him, the buck stopped with him, so he was a type of covering. If they did not have to listen to him, but only did this out of respect, then he clearly was not a covering to them, or he was not when they failed to obey him.
In the home, a husband is responsible for things his wife does. If she runs up bills, he is responsible to pay them. Fair or not fair, that is how the laws work where I live. I know a man whose wife bought a home on her own, and he is responsible for the bill. To me, the husband is a covering for his wife. Biblically, the husband is the head of the wife, and she is supposed to obey him, but if she does obey him, and what he said was wrong, he is responsible. He is a type of covering. This brings us back to the same question I asked Giller. What is a covering to you? What does the word covering mean in the sense of human authorities?
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Post by John on Feb 23, 2021 17:49:12 GMT -5
I am looking into this " spiritual covering doctrine", and its roots. And here is a bit of information on it: (http://www.burningpointministries.com/spiritual-covering-and-authority)(...The Shepherding Movement
A powerful movement that redefined much of the charismatic movement came into being around 1970. It is known as the Shepherding Movement. This movement began when four anointed teachers came together in a 'covenant relationship.' These men were Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, and Charles Simpson. Later, in 1975, they were joined by Ern Baxter. Teachings such as spiritual coverings, submission, and covenant relationships became widespread because of this movement. Much of what was taught, was spread like seed into the minds and hearts of young believers growing up spiritually during that time period. It was then passed on to the next generation of believers without them even knowing it came from the Shepherding Movement. Many leaders in ministry today have taken doctrine into their hearts that came straight from the shepherding movement and they don't even realize it. The article's intent is not to discredit or dishonor the five teachers mentioned above. They each had powerful teaching ministries and were mightily used by God. I am sure that much good fruit came from their ministries. The intent of this article is to examine some of the errors and overemphasis in their teaching so at we will learn from their mistakes, and not follow down the same path. The Bible openly talks about the errors of those who went before us, for our own instruction. Spiritual Coverings
'Spiritual coverings' have become a huge doctrine in the body of Christ. Many times leaders do not even teach on this doctrine, it is simply mentioned as a matter-of-fact. Therefore many in the church grow up spiritually, accepting this doctrine as Biblical truth. But where is this doctrine taught in the Bible? Where do the apostles talk about this doctrine in the letters to the churches? When does Jesus teach it in the gospels? I don't know, because I have not found it....)
This is just an exert of this article, that seems to show the root of this spiritual covering doctrine, and I do not know much about the shepherding movement, or these preachers, and I do not know if I would agree with every point that they say in this full article, but they do mention interesting points.Here are some of them: (http://www.burningpointministries.com/spiritual-covering-and-authority)(...Charles Simpson wrote an article in 1972 in "New Wine" magazine titled 'Covering of the Lord.' It focused on the covering or protection provided by submitting oneself to God's delegated authority in the church (among other things). Don Basham stated in 'True and False Prophets' that "submission to spiritual authority provides the greatest spiritual protection anywhere available for Christian ministers and teachers." The movement taught that submission to a shepherd provided spiritual covering by being in right relationship to God's delegated authority in the church. This may sound really good, but where is this taught in the Bible? Surely apostolic doctrine would address such an important issue as this, so that there would not be any confusion in the church?...The first century apostolic church did not teach submission to man like the 21 century church in America teaches it. They taught submission to Christ. The first century church did not teach that leaders can provide a spiritual covering, because they understood that the Lord is the one who covers man. “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” (Psalms 91:1 NKJV).The word 'secret place' in the Hebrew means to cover, covering, hiding place, or protection. The Hebrew word for 'shadow' also means defense. So he who dwells under the covering of the Most High shall abide under the defense of the Almighty. The scripture does not tell us to dwell under the covering of man, but rather God.......Covering and Deception
The current church has made an argument that states, "Being under a man's spiritual covering will protect you from deception." Actually the opposite is true as we will see. In the context of deception being released through antichrist spirits, John states: “These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (I John 2:26-27 NKJV)
John states, by the Holy Spirit, that believers do not need another man to protect them from men who are trying to deceive. The believer does not need the protection or teaching of men to stay free from deception, because the anointing from God abides in the believer. The anointing teaches the believer all things concerning the truth and keeps the believer from the lies of men. However, when a believer is submitted to a man as their spiritual covering, deception can spread much easier. This is very evident in denominations. If the leaders of a denomination do not believe that Jesus currently heals people, then you will find that most believers sitting under their spiritual covering follow their belief system of deception. The same is true about the doctrine of God's judgment. I have witnessed whole movements in the charismatic church reject New Testament scriptures of God's judgment. Then as other leaders and believers come under the movement's covering, they follow suit into the same deceptive doctrine....) Now I personally believe that the bible has given us leaders, so to feed the flock, and they are to look out for the flock, but nowhere does it say they were given us for a spiritual covering, protection.
The Lord is our protection, so if we use man as our protection, and that leader eventually teaches false doctrine, then how good will their protection be? Not really good right?
And it is in a form of protection, that this doctrine seems to have come to being.
The very meaning of Pastor is a type of shepherd. Jesus Christ is "The Good Shepherd," but the Pastor of any church is a type of protector of the sheep in his church. To me, some things are just known. At the same time, Jesus Christ is above any human authority. If any human authority tells us to do things contrary to "The Good Shepherd," we must obey Christ and not men.
Back to the idea of a "shepherding movement," the word Pastor in the Bible is poimen in the Greek, and it means a shepherd. Knowing that a Pastor is a shepherd, why would it be wrong to oppose shepherding?
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Post by John on Feb 23, 2021 18:02:39 GMT -5
I'm sorry but I have to disagree with you here. Paul sure told the Corinthians he would come with a rod if they didn't straighten up. He ordered them to kick out a man living in sin. He told his churches to not even eat dinner with immoral people kicked out of church. He was down to the level of making marriage policies for the women in his churches. By today's standards, he would be called a domineering judgmental control freak, even in most holiness groups. And yet Paul managed to do those things from a spiritual level. He certainly never exploited people, fleeced them for cash, ran a church like a corporation, or treated people like cogs. I've watched too many people self-destruct because no one around them wanted to be "mean" about their sins. Paul's authority was genuine, but this is why I felt the need to ask the question. It changes how you view the whole idea of having a spiritual covering. It may be obvious to you that Paul had real authority, but not to some. There are people that think we are not accountable to anyone, and that is not true. God gave people real authority, and they do have the right to tell people what to do or not do. Still, you will find some that disagree with that. I do not think it is about milk verses meat as much as it is about lawlessness.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2021 9:21:35 GMT -5
I am looking into this " spiritual covering doctrine", and its roots. And here is a bit of information on it: (http://www.burningpointministries.com/spiritual-covering-and-authority)(...The Shepherding Movement
A powerful movement that redefined much of the charismatic movement came into being around 1970. It is known as the Shepherding Movement. This movement began when four anointed teachers came together in a 'covenant relationship.' These men were Don Basham, Bob Mumford, Derek Prince, and Charles Simpson. Later, in 1975, they were joined by Ern Baxter. Teachings such as spiritual coverings, submission, and covenant relationships became widespread because of this movement. Much of what was taught, was spread like seed into the minds and hearts of young believers growing up spiritually during that time period. It was then passed on to the next generation of believers without them even knowing it came from the Shepherding Movement. Many leaders in ministry today have taken doctrine into their hearts that came straight from the shepherding movement and they don't even realize it. The article's intent is not to discredit or dishonor the five teachers mentioned above. They each had powerful teaching ministries and were mightily used by God. I am sure that much good fruit came from their ministries. The intent of this article is to examine some of the errors and overemphasis in their teaching so at we will learn from their mistakes, and not follow down the same path. The Bible openly talks about the errors of those who went before us, for our own instruction. Spiritual Coverings
'Spiritual coverings' have become a huge doctrine in the body of Christ. Many times leaders do not even teach on this doctrine, it is simply mentioned as a matter-of-fact. Therefore many in the church grow up spiritually, accepting this doctrine as Biblical truth. But where is this doctrine taught in the Bible? Where do the apostles talk about this doctrine in the letters to the churches? When does Jesus teach it in the gospels? I don't know, because I have not found it....)
This is just an exert of this article, that seems to show the root of this spiritual covering doctrine, and I do not know much about the shepherding movement, or these preachers, and I do not know if I would agree with every point that they say in this full article, but they do mention interesting points.Here are some of them: (http://www.burningpointministries.com/spiritual-covering-and-authority)(...Charles Simpson wrote an article in 1972 in "New Wine" magazine titled 'Covering of the Lord.' It focused on the covering or protection provided by submitting oneself to God's delegated authority in the church (among other things). Don Basham stated in 'True and False Prophets' that "submission to spiritual authority provides the greatest spiritual protection anywhere available for Christian ministers and teachers." The movement taught that submission to a shepherd provided spiritual covering by being in right relationship to God's delegated authority in the church. This may sound really good, but where is this taught in the Bible? Surely apostolic doctrine would address such an important issue as this, so that there would not be any confusion in the church?...The first century apostolic church did not teach submission to man like the 21 century church in America teaches it. They taught submission to Christ. The first century church did not teach that leaders can provide a spiritual covering, because they understood that the Lord is the one who covers man. “He who dwells in the secret place of the Most High Shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.” (Psalms 91:1 NKJV).The word 'secret place' in the Hebrew means to cover, covering, hiding place, or protection. The Hebrew word for 'shadow' also means defense. So he who dwells under the covering of the Most High shall abide under the defense of the Almighty. The scripture does not tell us to dwell under the covering of man, but rather God.......Covering and Deception
The current church has made an argument that states, "Being under a man's spiritual covering will protect you from deception." Actually the opposite is true as we will see. In the context of deception being released through antichrist spirits, John states: “These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you. But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.” (I John 2:26-27 NKJV)
John states, by the Holy Spirit, that believers do not need another man to protect them from men who are trying to deceive. The believer does not need the protection or teaching of men to stay free from deception, because the anointing from God abides in the believer. The anointing teaches the believer all things concerning the truth and keeps the believer from the lies of men. However, when a believer is submitted to a man as their spiritual covering, deception can spread much easier. This is very evident in denominations. If the leaders of a denomination do not believe that Jesus currently heals people, then you will find that most believers sitting under their spiritual covering follow their belief system of deception. The same is true about the doctrine of God's judgment. I have witnessed whole movements in the charismatic church reject New Testament scriptures of God's judgment. Then as other leaders and believers come under the movement's covering, they follow suit into the same deceptive doctrine....) Now I personally believe that the bible has given us leaders, so to feed the flock, and they are to look out for the flock, but nowhere does it say they were given us for a spiritual covering, protection.
The Lord is our protection, so if we use man as our protection, and that leader eventually teaches false doctrine, then how good will their protection be? Not really good right?
And it is in a form of protection, that this doctrine seems to have come to being.
The very meaning of Pastor is a type of shepherd. Jesus Christ is "The Good Shepherd," but the Pastor of any church is a type of protector of the sheep in his church. To me, some things are just known. At the same time, Jesus Christ is above any human authority. If any human authority tells us to do things contrary to "The Good Shepherd," we must obey Christ and not men.
Back to the idea of a "shepherding movement," the word Pastor in the Bible is poimen in the Greek, and it means a shepherd. Knowing that a Pastor is a shepherd, why would it be wrong to oppose shepherding?
I was not opposing shepherding, was just showing the roots of were this spiritual covering doctrine comes from, and concerning the shepherding movement, I do not know much about it, which I already mentioned that.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2021 9:39:37 GMT -5
Well God is good, and I am glad at least we were able to discuss it, but concerning the covering thing, can you prove it by scripture that a man can be covered by another man, because in the end we have to go by what the scriptures say. We need to examine at times what we defend, and understand what we are defending at times, and compare with scriptures. Now the bible does say this: 1Pe 5:5 (5) Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble. There is a type of subjection towards leaders, and towards one another, but I see nothing about a church being someone's covering and so on, just want to be honest with what the word of God says, and I like it when people show biblical proof of things, then you know it fits with the mind of Christ. That is my concern. I am not aware of any scriptures that tell us that we must have a covering, in the sense of denominations and things like that, but neither do I think we are forbidden to set things like that up. I do think that the denominational systems are build on the idea of overseers that are in charge of more than one congregation, and it seems to me that the Apostle Paul was over a group of churches. For me, I am not pro-denomination or anti-denomination. I can see benefits and problems in those kind of systems. On the good side, they do promote accountability and there is an established doctrine. On the negative side, like with any type of government, over time, they often become corrupt. Also, the established doctrine will have errors that are continually repeated.
In the case of the Apostle Paul, he clearly seemed to be an overseer of those churches. I suppose that the question I need to ask you is, what is a covering to you? Is an overseer a covering? In a home, the husband is overseer of his family, and a type of covering. In businesses, those in charge are overseers and provide a type of covering. The buck stops with the one in charge. What is a covering to you, and if you think that Paul was not providing a type of covering to those churches, what was his role?
I believe that pastors, teachers were given for the perfecting of the saints, and that Apostles which means a sent one, are types of overseers, who go from church to church to oversee the flock. Yes they seek to protect the flock from error, but nowhere in the bible does it say that they are our covering, that we are covered by them, for the bible shows clearly who our covering is, and we have to believe our bible and not invent our own doctrine, or defend something that is not scriptural. And to claim there were denominations in the bible is false, yes there is order , yes there are offices in the church, but that does not automatically equal a denomination, we cannot add things to the book. Our ultimate protection comes from the book, and Paul said that if he preaches another gospel let him be a cursed. So he was not pointing people to him, so he can be their covering. Psa 91:1 (1) He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty. And just observe the roots of this doctrine, it does not sound like good roots, that is this specific doctrine. I would rather fear the Lord, than take a chance at twisting the word of God.
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