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Post by John on Jun 4, 2018 19:43:37 GMT -5
ALL TOTAL CHRISTIANITY THE TRUTH OF OSAS John 10: 27-30 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Romans 8:30 “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” John 3:16 For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Begotten Son, That whosoever believeth in Him Shall not perish but hath everlasting life. These are just a few verses that prove that once we are truly saved we are always saved forever. I could go on and on about posting scripture in this Article, but I won’t I will say this Even Paul believed in Once Saved Always Saved. He knew that he was saved by grace through faith alone. Many People believe that one can choose not to believe and be lost again. I struggled with that issue for a long time. Just because someone does not believe in OSAS does not mean they are not saved. Just incorrect but still saved if they have truly believed. They next question would be, “if that is the case why can’t we just get ourselves saved and then go on sinning? The answer to that is simple, we will never stop sinning until we are given a new body in the rapture or when Jesus comes back the second time. As Paul pointed out this is not a license to sin. But sadly as long as the true believer is living in his old body his old body will sin. 1 John: 1:8 states that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But verse 9 is good news for the believer because it states. If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I believe that verse is for an already born again believer. It is an encouragement to us true believers. Anyone that lives in sin and is not miserable i.e. convicted by the Holy Spirit is not saved. This does not include past sins which we have already confessed. The Devil is the accuser of the brethren and will say, “How can you believe God will forgive you when you committed that horrible sin. In the true believer sin causes death of fellowship with God. In my humble opinion there is nothing worse than a believer that has gone astray. Even worse than unbelievers. Now saying this we must love our enemies, forgive those who offend us. Forgiveness is for us, not just the target of our forgiveness. In closing I will say I am not saying those who are true believers and yet do not believe in OSAS is not saved. That is so not true. I am saying they are wrong. I cannot believe after all the terrible things I have done as His child; He still loves me and forgives me. If I get angry with my sons and say you are not my son anymore that would not be true that man would still be my son. The same way if my sons would say; You are not my dad anymore. I would still be their dad. This is the same as our relationship with God. Once we are saved truly saved, we are always saved. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us or let us go. As Paul tells us, we are changed, with a new man put on, we are compelled NOT to sin although we may still sin it it no longer our focus in this fallen world. We are focused on Christ and His Righteousness to help us and guide us to live as best we can in this fallen world until He returns. He is My Lord and My Savior, He has saved me from all my sins, past present and future. That is why He is my God. I do not believe in OSAS, and I do not see any of those scriptures as proving it to be true. Some of them are speaking of the fact God, in his foreknowledge, and because he is our creator, knew who would ultimately be saved, and those people will be saved no matter what. It has nothing to do with the fact someone prayed a sinner's prayer and believed in Jesus. James says the devils believe and tremble. I am KJV only, and in my Bible, John 3:16 does not say those who believe shall not perish, but that they should not perish.
The scripture in Hebrews is saying that if someone who has been saved walks away and stays away long enough, the spirit will no longer convict them and it will be impossible for them to be saved. It actually shows OSAS is a lie.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 4, 2018 20:26:47 GMT -5
John I agree to you, there is no reason to go and tell believers they cannot stop believing.
It can be very destructive to those who are new in the faith and are battling against evil, flesh, sin, self, etc.
And we are called to encourage in the process while they are knowing the Lord."He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad." - Matthew 12:30 And yes, just because we are stronger in the faith does not mean we cannot fall.
"Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear." - Romans 11:20
But those who are new needs our support to stay in the faith and trusting in Him to overcome evil. And exhortation is beneficial to all of us as well.
"but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin." - Hebrews 3:13And when they are well established in the faith, God will reveal to them... "Therefore let us, as many as are mature, have this mind; and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal even this to you." - Philippians 3:15"The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God..." - Romans 8:16God bless you all in Jesus' name!
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Post by justinadams on Jun 5, 2018 4:52:07 GMT -5
I often wonder if any of us can think and reason anymore? The last tenet of TULIP says it is impossible for those predestined to loose salvation. How dumb. Because the other tenets of tulip make one unsure and prone to works just to prove it all. Disingenuous in the extreme. Calvin was a really nasty piece of work anyway and just like the RCC, he made sure many thousands suffered unto death if they did not believe in his ideas and bow to his 'wisdom'. The predestination thing is fraught with half-meanings at the best of times. The fact that God's foreknowing equals His predestining those events is so very flawed anyway. It is a misreading of the scriptures anyway.
Yes, God predestined the BEGINNINGS and the END. He made us as IMAGERS (verb) of Himself and His Character and His Attributes. Therefore the freedom He gave us He will not violate because this goes against His very nature. Yes, He decide to knock a guy off his horse and VISIT him with a task. This guy was a priest and needed to be force-fed some truth. At any time he could have turned his back on the Lord - but he did not when he learned the TRUTH. The Lord gave us an envelope in which to live - and yet within that He has not removed our capability to stop breathing His oxygen. To suggest that The Lord predestined some to death and some to life also goes against what we know of God's nature. Again, disingenuous reasoning has placed many a mill-stone on many a believers neck.
Just because the Lord has foreknowledge does NOT mean he predestines and micromanages every choice we make. He allows evil because to do otherwise means He would have to kill off all humanity. That is the only way He could prevent us being evil. So freedom reigns as He designed and thus evil is present.
The Lord has the capacity to 'forget' our sins. Forgetting is something we just cannot do. The Lord does limit Himself in many ways when dealing with humanity, and sometimes turns His back. The Tanach is filled with the Lord's pleadings and movements in His sometimes fruitless attempts to get His people to obey Him and do the right thing. Yahweh often changes His tactics and varies His approach. Nevertheless, He has ordained certain things and He will eventually bring them to pass one way or another. He is always open to trying a different tack. He is the penultimate chess player and eventually He will prevail in His designs WITHOUT violating His Image and His peoples' freedom.
Ya gotta Love God. Really!!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2018 8:09:19 GMT -5
I agree justin. Following the Lord and understanding scriptures is not an exact science...and this is by His design, in the wisdom of God that is higher than ours. Because we have more to learn than just how to do the right things outwardly...the whole purpose is to be conformed to His image inwardly as well, which is an intricate process of His workmanship along the walk faith, even making use of our mistakes along the way.....which He doesn't stone/condemn us for, thanks be to Jesus. He is the God who hideth himself so that we would seek Him. And we are fallible creatures trying to follow the only one who is infallible, and so we learn to walk humbly and softly before our God and fellow man. When faith is being turned into an exact science and walking by sight, something is askew. Look at the Pharisees for example.....and it sure seems like Calvin would have been at home with them, at least in some ways.
And amen to loving God....the more we learn and know of Him by not only the word but by experiencing His goodness, kindness and mercy in our lives......the more we love Him, because He is worthy. We only can love Him because He first loved us.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 5, 2018 8:49:28 GMT -5
I agree justin. Following the Lord and understanding scriptures is not an exact science...and this is by His design, in the wisdom of God that is higher than ours. Because we have more to learn than just how to do the right things outwardly...the whole purpose is to be conformed to His image inwardly as well, which is an intricate process of His workmanship along the walk faith, even making use of our mistakes along the way.....which He doesn't stone/condemn us for, thanks be to Jesus. He is the God who hideth himself so that we would seek Him. And we are fallible creatures trying to follow the only one who is infallible, and so we learn to walk humbly and softly before our God and fellow man. When faith is being turned into an exact science and walking by sight, something is askew. Look at the Pharisees for example.....and it sure seems like Calvin would have been at home with them, at least in some ways. And amen to loving God....the more we learn and know of Him by not only the word but by experiencing His goodness, kindness and mercy in our lives......the more we love Him, because He is worthy. We only can love Him because He first loved us. Sister you loved . Let us keep learning the pure holy pattern JESUS first taught and the apostels would later teach and instruct . Knowing That JESUS alone can keep us from falling . And in no way is it His desire that we perish . And knowing this let us learn from HIM , the one WHO is able to do just that , KEEP us from falling . Let us have mercy , let us be grave and compassionate . In all things we do or say , let it HONOR the ONE who has saved us and keeps us by Grace . Who teaches us to deny the vile wickedness of the flesh , by the power of HIS resurrected Spirit . The new life which honors the SON and gives all Glory to the Father . As many in all ages have said , BE YE HOLY for HE IS HOLY . Let us obey HIM, for He desires obedience and will give us all that we need IN HIM to walk pleasing in HIS SIGHT . Oh, be fired up for the LORD peoples . Let all praise the LORD . We simply need to keep it simple . Alll we truly need to know , IS that JESUS paid the price of our sins and that by faith in Him , the new life we have both the desire and ability to do so. All we need to do is just remind one another and stir one another up by those reminders . When it comes to elect, all I need to know is THE ONLY way to be ELECT is provided IN CHRIST . When it comes to predestination , all I need to know is that was predetermined THAT JESUS alone would be the savoir . All I need to know is our being saved is soley by grace . And all I need to know is OBEY HIS grace which teaches us how to walk . Its real simple . Their is no need for me to try and figure all the other stuff out . WHY not rather , JUST LIVE for HIM , by HIM and exhort others to do the same . In the end what really mattered , was THAT WE KNEW CHRIST , were truly OF HIM and that we followed Him faithfully unto the end . We are saved soley by grace, kept by faith , kept by this grace , we simply must obey HIM. What a non complicated walk . IF WE as children simply trust and obey the one who saved us , HAPPY are we no matter what comes against us , we will overcome IF our FAITH , HOPE , and TRUST is IN THE LORD . May the Love of GOD , shed on our hearts by the Holy Ghost only increase . And that love is so different than what the world sees love as . Love the truth , love the brethren , PUT JESUS above all things and simply walk by faith . PRAISE the LORD peoples . Raise those hands and praise the LORD >
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Post by frienduff on Jun 5, 2018 8:57:50 GMT -5
ALL TOTAL CHRISTIANITY THE TRUTH OF OSAS John 10: 27-30 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish; neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one. Hebrews 6:4-6 4 For [it is] impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put [him] to an open shame. Romans 8:30 “And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” John 3:16 For God so loved the World, that He gave His only Begotten Son, That whosoever believeth in Him Shall not perish but hath everlasting life. These are just a few verses that prove that once we are truly saved we are always saved forever. I could go on and on about posting scripture in this Article, but I won’t I will say this Even Paul believed in Once Saved Always Saved. He knew that he was saved by grace through faith alone. Many People believe that one can choose not to believe and be lost again. I struggled with that issue for a long time. Just because someone does not believe in OSAS does not mean they are not saved. Just incorrect but still saved if they have truly believed. They next question would be, “if that is the case why can’t we just get ourselves saved and then go on sinning? The answer to that is simple, we will never stop sinning until we are given a new body in the rapture or when Jesus comes back the second time. As Paul pointed out this is not a license to sin. But sadly as long as the true believer is living in his old body his old body will sin. 1 John: 1:8 states that if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. But verse 9 is good news for the believer because it states. If we confess our sin He is faithful and just to forgive us, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I believe that verse is for an already born again believer. It is an encouragement to us true believers. Anyone that lives in sin and is not miserable i.e. convicted by the Holy Spirit is not saved. This does not include past sins which we have already confessed. The Devil is the accuser of the brethren and will say, “How can you believe God will forgive you when you committed that horrible sin. In the true believer sin causes death of fellowship with God. In my humble opinion there is nothing worse than a believer that has gone astray. Even worse than unbelievers. Now saying this we must love our enemies, forgive those who offend us. Forgiveness is for us, not just the target of our forgiveness. In closing I will say I am not saying those who are true believers and yet do not believe in OSAS is not saved. That is so not true. I am saying they are wrong. I cannot believe after all the terrible things I have done as His child; He still loves me and forgives me. If I get angry with my sons and say you are not my son anymore that would not be true that man would still be my son. The same way if my sons would say; You are not my dad anymore. I would still be their dad. This is the same as our relationship with God. Once we are saved truly saved, we are always saved. Jesus will never leave us or forsake us or let us go. As Paul tells us, we are changed, with a new man put on, we are compelled NOT to sin although we may still sin it it no longer our focus in this fallen world. We are focused on Christ and His Righteousness to help us and guide us to live as best we can in this fallen world until He returns. He is My Lord and My Savior, He has saved me from all my sins, past present and future. That is why He is my God. I do not believe in OSAS, and I do not see any of those scriptures as proving it to be true. Some of them are speaking of the fact God, in his foreknowledge, and because he is our creator, knew who would ultimately be saved, and those people will be saved no matter what. It has nothing to do with the fact someone prayed a sinner's prayer and believed in Jesus. James says the devils believe and tremble. I am KJV only, and in my Bible, John 3:16 does not say those who believe shall not perish, but that they should not perish.
The scripture in Hebrews is saying that if someone who has been saved walks away and stays away long enough, the spirit will no longer convict them and it will be impossible for them to be saved. It actually shows OSAS is a lie.
Butero , I understand clearly what you are saying . But I would reword one part of it . The part where you said it has nothing to do with the fact that someone prayed a sinners prayer and believed in JESUS . I would say It has EVERYTHING to do with believing IN JESUS , but if one don't continue in him , they will not and do not make it . Shiloh can turn things around . Like He did with what you had said . We need to make the emphasis STRONG on JESUS only saves and if we believe in HIM from the heart , ITS SEEN . Its seen by how we walk , by whom we obey , by whom we follow . You loved butero. As I said , I KNOW what you mean , I understand it fine . But some might take that out of text So instead we should make it deeply known IT is soley about FAITH in CHRIST and expose false faith and teach true faith . I am watching some try and pick things apart and they are doing it unto their own destruction . Let us focus on IT has everything to do with Faith in Christ and that we are saved soley by grace and to obey HIM.
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Post by Sister on Jun 5, 2018 9:54:31 GMT -5
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
I believe Jesus summed up the main reasons why some can lose their salvation in this parable alone;
Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Many will fall in the end times when persecution arises for the Word's sake. We go through our personal persecutions now, but they are minor compared to what is coming. When it depends on our life whether we live or die for the Word's sake, it will be a whole different scenario, and everyone is given a chance to walk their talk. They can keep their salvation or lose it, and there are many who don't even make it to this stage.
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Christ is speaking about facing a physical death here for his sake, and not a spiritual one where one repents on sin, giving up his old ways, but the kind of death he faced and went through. Many are very happy in their churches, with plenty of friends, are well liked, they have jobs, a roof over their heads, and all their needs supplied. Take all this away for the Word's sake, and many will fall like flies, because there is no root in them, the foundations are weak.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 5, 2018 12:10:58 GMT -5
2 Timothy 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. I believe Jesus summed up the main reasons why some can lose their salvation in this parable alone; Matthew 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Matthew 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Matthew 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Matthew 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Matthew 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Matthew 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
Many will fall in the end times when persecution arises for the Word's sake. We go through our personal persecutions now, but they are minor compared to what is coming. When it depends on our life whether we live or die for the Word's sake, it will be a whole different scenario, and everyone is given a chance to walk their talk. They can keep their salvation or lose it, and there are many who don't even make it to this stage.
Mark 8:35 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it.
Christ is speaking about facing a physical death here for his sake, and not a spiritual one where one repents on sin, giving up his old ways, but the kind of death he faced and went through. Many are very happy in their churches, with plenty of friends, are well liked, they have jobs, a roof over their heads, and all their needs supplied. Take all this away for the Word's sake, and many will fall like flies, because there is no root in them, the foundations are weak. It is all a matter of faith working through love.
The problem is that many are deceived and they think they know and love the Lord.
When in reality His Love (dwelling Holy Spirit) is not in them, and never was.
"Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him." - 1 John 2:15
Then what they have is a superficial faith in the Word, and without the Spirit of it.
If they do not know and love Him, it would be impossible for them to remain in Him as they are not in Him to begin with.
"If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned." - John 15:6
That is why I say: It takes faith to be born again.
"But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways." - James 1:6-8
"Or what king, going to make war against another king, does not sit down first and consider whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks conditions of peace." - Luke 14:31-32
Whoever is thinking on going back may have to rethink where their faith really is. Yes, these words may be tough to receive but it is the truth.
"Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father." - John 6:65
"I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." - Mark 1:8
What will happen in the great tribulation is a wake up call for those who are deceived. Those who are His will have their eyes opened and receive Him.
God bless you in Jesus' name!
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Post by John on Jun 5, 2018 15:07:03 GMT -5
I do not believe in OSAS, and I do not see any of those scriptures as proving it to be true. Some of them are speaking of the fact God, in his foreknowledge, and because he is our creator, knew who would ultimately be saved, and those people will be saved no matter what. It has nothing to do with the fact someone prayed a sinner's prayer and believed in Jesus. James says the devils believe and tremble. I am KJV only, and in my Bible, John 3:16 does not say those who believe shall not perish, but that they should not perish.
The scripture in Hebrews is saying that if someone who has been saved walks away and stays away long enough, the spirit will no longer convict them and it will be impossible for them to be saved. It actually shows OSAS is a lie.
Butero , I understand clearly what you are saying . But I would reword one part of it . The part where you said it has nothing to do with the fact that someone prayed a sinners prayer and believed in JESUS . I would say It has EVERYTHING to do with believing IN JESUS , but if one don't continue in him , they will not and do not make it . Shiloh can turn things around . Like He did with what you had said . We need to make the emphasis STRONG on JESUS only saves and if we believe in HIM from the heart , ITS SEEN . Its seen by how we walk , by whom we obey , by whom we follow . You loved butero. As I said , I KNOW what you mean , I understand it fine . But some might take that out of text So instead we should make it deeply known IT is soley about FAITH in CHRIST and expose false faith and teach true faith . I am watching some try and pick things apart and they are doing it unto their own destruction . Let us focus on IT has everything to do with Faith in Christ and that we are saved soley by grace and to obey HIM.
Thanks, and I know that you understand what I have been trying to say. I also agree that it is a complex subject. That is why there is so much division over it. If we want to make it as simple as possible, if we will just believe in Jesus, that he paid the price for our sins, and if we will accept him as our Lord and Savior, and then take up our cross and follow him faithfully till the end, we will be saved and remain saved. The only thing that can get us in trouble is if we turn away from following Christ and go back into sin.
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