|
Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2020 19:14:36 GMT -5
It clears up what you believe, but I never had any questions about where you stand. It will clear things up if Watchful will answer me. It will help a great deal. actuallly it sure will clear things up . but i thought , why not answer it too .
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 7, 2020 8:43:16 GMT -5
It clears up what you believe, but I never had any questions about where you stand. It will clear things up if Watchful will answer me. It will help a great deal. actuallly it sure will clear things up . but i thought , why not answer it too . If she does answer the questions I asked her, we will see how far apart we are, and then we can address the reasons we feel as we do. If we are already in agreement, and there is just a huge misunderstanding, then all the better, but we can not get anywhere until we know if we have the same foundation. Certainly, that is my reason for asking these questions, not to interrogate her like the Pharisees did Jesus to try to trip her up. I want her true feelings, not to take things she says out of context. I want to make sure we fully understand each other so there are no more questions.
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Sept 7, 2020 13:41:54 GMT -5
Goodness, you're jumping the gun here frienduff. I'm not hanging out with anybody but the Lord, following nobody but Him. And I know there is a difference between sincere questions and interrogation...of course. I wasn't trying to say that simply asking questions is interrogation, but there is a time when it is a form of interrogation in the same spirit as Rome, or the Pharisees, and that is when it is wrong, and I do not believe anyone is obligated to answer at such times. Not saying that it has to do with this thread, I don't remember seeing a problem during the discussion about Peter, that I can recall. Just was commenting that there is a right way and a wrong way to ask questions in general, especially when those in some form of leadership are doing it. I have asked you what questions need to be answered, you keep mentioning questions, but I don't understand....what questions have I left hanging on this thread? If you can point them out, or send them to me, I can try to answer in the next day or two most likely, I'm just too tired to think straight right now. Or are you talking about questions asked in the past maybe? Before I ask you some questions, there is something I want to say. I really believe that I understand where we differ. I also believe that I know why. I think that much of it has to do with growing up in the day and time we have, and being used to things being a certain way. If any of us were to suddenly be transported back to the church as it existed in the day of the Apostle Paul, there would be a massive culture shock. People today really do not want to return to how things used to be, and do not want to fully abide by the teachings in the epistles. It is easier to just write off some of the things to the culture, not God, but you must realize that this means the Bible has mistakes in it. It is not inerrant if you hold to that. Here are some things I want to ask you, and this is not an interrogation, but questions.
1. You speak of being led of the Spirit, rather than the letter of the law? Do you consider holding to the letter of New Testament teachings the same thing as being led of the letter of the law?
2. You speak of being led of the Spirit. Are there instances where the Spirit will lead you to do things that are the opposite of what is taught in the New Testament epistles?
3. If you see something written in the New Testament epistles, instructions on how we are to live, but you feel in your heart that these things are not right, because they are unfair or something like that, do you believe your feelings are what you should follow, or the Bible?
When I read your opinions, and not just yours, but some others who hold to similar ideas as you have, they tend to go by experience over the Bible. We measure everything, including experience, by the Bible. As such, here is my last question.
4. Do you agree with the following statement? "If the Bible says it is right, it is right. If the Bible says it is wrong, it is wrong. If our feelings are in disagreement with New Testament teachings, the problem lies with us, not the Bible." Why or why not?
Thank you watchful . I am taking you at your word that you are willing to answer straight forward questions, and that you just have not understood what people are questioning you about. If you will give me straight answers to these questions, I do believe we can make progress in understanding each other and seeing if it is possible to find common ground.
Hi John….okay brother, here’s how I understand of serving in the new way of the Spirit as opposed to the old way of the letter/Law . I’m not at all sure my understanding is complete and I still find this so hard to explain in my own words, it’s like explaining the difference between flesh and spirit, it’s just something hard for me to define and explain. In a nutshell the flesh and carnal mind is of us, our old man, and the Spirit is of the Lord, of Christ. I hope the following will help express where I’m coming from on this. 2Co 3:5-6 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, (by His Spirit) who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.Rom 7:5-6 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, (!) did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter. Rom 7:8-9 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence (!). For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. 1Co 15:56-57 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. (by His Spirit…the new and living way) We know that a ministration of the letter/Law is a ministration of spiritual death, as the scripture says. Because it binds a person in their sin instead of setting them free from it. It puts a person under the dominion of sin…..because it is weak through the flesh and carnal mind….Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (since “through the Law is the knowledge of sin”). But the new way of the Spirit is the Tree of Life and is a ministration of life and grace which sets us free from the Law/letter of sin and death….it has power to set a person free from their sin, from the dominion/bondage of it. Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. So in ministering the gospel and words and commands of Jesus, I believe it needs to be ministered in the new way of the Spirit, not in an old way of the letter (flesh and carnal mind). And I believe that means to minister it without condemnation….and that that is how the Holy Spirit ministers it to the hearer. The Holy Spirit will convict the hearer if need be, but conviction is not the same thing as condemnation. Conviction is through the Holy Spirit and is like being confronted and waking up to an awareness of your sin in such a way as to cause you to repent, whereas condemnation is of the flesh/carnal mind with no power, and comes with a sense of being cast off and separated from God…it doesn’t have power to bring about repentance, but has the opposite effect, strengthening the bondage. In my own life I have experienced how the condemnation of the letter of the Law locks us into bondage instead of setting us free of sin…..in one instance when I made a deliberate decision to stop condemning myself and beating myself up with the letter of the Law, and trying to get free by own self-effort, but instead returned to the grace and forgiveness of the Lord, believing that I was not condemned even though I was not yet set free, and surrendered the battle to Him, taking my eyes off myself and my sin, and keeping them on the Lord and His salvation, He set me free so easily by His Spirit. (That’s why it says, “the battle is the Lord’s”.) Well I think that’s the best I can do with this and hope it answers your first question. Question 2.....no I don't believe the Holy Spirit leads us contrary to the word of God. Question 3.....no we are not live by our feelings but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. We have feelings, but we do not live by them. Question 4.....I believe that God's word is full of truth that transcends the carnal mind. Remember how the scripture says the carnal mind cannot perceive the things of the Spirit. We need the Holy Spirit to give us understanding of much of what is in the Bible. Some things are simple and obvious and some things are 'hard to be understood' and we need the Holy Spirit to open those things to our understanding. And even looking at a simple example that we would have thought was obvious....where the Law says thou shall not commit adultery.....but Jesus said if we even lust after someone we are committing adultery in our heart. How did Jesus know that, when the letter of the word only says thou shall not commit adultery...He knew it by the Holy Spirit. I believe God may communicate with us through something we are feeling/sensing....He may give us a check in our spirit about something, or a discernment that something is not right, or not complete, etc. And then we need to heed that unction and seek Him for more understanding of what He is trying to alert us to.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 7, 2020 14:02:52 GMT -5
Thank you Watchful. That was helpful, and does give me a better idea of where you are coming from. Based on the way you answered my 4th question, I do have a couple more that I think should put this behind us.
1. Do you believe that anything written by Paul was not from God?
2. Do you believe that there are unfair biases in the New Testament towards women, because women were seen as little more than chattel at the time, and those biases caused New Testament scriptures to contain teachings not of God, but of men?
Thank you again for your sincere answers in that other post. I am trying to put all the questions I have had and others have had to rest.
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Sept 7, 2020 14:28:58 GMT -5
Thank you Watchful. That was helpful, and does give me a better idea of where you are coming from. Based on the way you answered my 4th question, I do have a couple more that I think should put this behind us.
1. Do you believe that anything written by Paul was not from God?
2. Do you believe that there are unfair biases in the New Testament towards women, because women were seen as little more than chattel at the time, and those biases caused New Testament scriptures to contain teachings not of God, but of men?
Thank you again for your sincere answers in that other post. I am trying to put all the questions I have had and others have had to rest.
There are a couple of instances (if memory serves) where Paul said he was speaking as a man, and so that was not of the Spirit necessarily, but then again I don't think he was wrong in what he was saying "as a man" either. But all the rest were things he was unctioned to write to the churches, so all the rest was of God. No I don't believe there are cultural biases against women in the New Testament. I consider it a dangerous and slippery slope to start doubting the truth of the scriptures. But it's hugely important to minister the word in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the flesh and carnal mind. The way of the Spirit is a way of liberty and life and fosters growth, whereas the other way is bondage and death.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 7, 2020 14:32:54 GMT -5
Thank you Watchful. That was helpful, and does give me a better idea of where you are coming from. Based on the way you answered my 4th question, I do have a couple more that I think should put this behind us.
1. Do you believe that anything written by Paul was not from God?
2. Do you believe that there are unfair biases in the New Testament towards women, because women were seen as little more than chattel at the time, and those biases caused New Testament scriptures to contain teachings not of God, but of men?
Thank you again for your sincere answers in that other post. I am trying to put all the questions I have had and others have had to rest.
There are a couple of instances (if memory serves) where Paul said he was speaking as a man, and so that was not of the Spirit necessarily, but then again I don't think he was wrong in what he was saying "as a man" either. But all the rest were things he was unctioned to write to the churches, so all the rest was of God. No I don't believe there are cultural biases against women in the New Testament. I consider it a dangerous and slippery slope to start doubting the truth of the scriptures. But it's hugely important to minister the word in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the flesh and carnal mind. The way of the Spirit is a way of liberty and life and fosters growth, whereas the other way is bondage and death. Thank you Watchful. I think I understand you much better now.
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Sept 7, 2020 14:45:04 GMT -5
There are a couple of instances (if memory serves) where Paul said he was speaking as a man, and so that was not of the Spirit necessarily, but then again I don't think he was wrong in what he was saying "as a man" either. But all the rest were things he was unctioned to write to the churches, so all the rest was of God. No I don't believe there are cultural biases against women in the New Testament. I consider it a dangerous and slippery slope to start doubting the truth of the scriptures. But it's hugely important to minister the word in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the flesh and carnal mind. The way of the Spirit is a way of liberty and life and fosters growth, whereas the other way is bondage and death. Thank you Watchful. I think I understand you much better now.
Oh good, I'm glad that was of help.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Sept 7, 2020 15:49:24 GMT -5
Thank you Watchful. That was helpful, and does give me a better idea of where you are coming from. Based on the way you answered my 4th question, I do have a couple more that I think should put this behind us.
1. Do you believe that anything written by Paul was not from God?
2. Do you believe that there are unfair biases in the New Testament towards women, because women were seen as little more than chattel at the time, and those biases caused New Testament scriptures to contain teachings not of God, but of men?
Thank you again for your sincere answers in that other post. I am trying to put all the questions I have had and others have had to rest.
There are a couple of instances (if memory serves) where Paul said he was speaking as a man, and so that was not of the Spirit necessarily, but then again I don't think he was wrong in what he was saying "as a man" either. But all the rest were things he was unctioned to write to the churches, so all the rest was of God. No I don't believe there are cultural biases against women in the New Testament. I consider it a dangerous and slippery slope to start doubting the truth of the scriptures. But it's hugely important to minister the word in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the flesh and carnal mind. The way of the Spirit is a way of liberty and life and fosters growth, whereas the other way is bondage and death. Yes the way paul delivered it and JESUS and all other apostels delivered the word . IS the same way we should . Its why its of dire importance we stay refreshed in those writings . DID you know sister , that though often when i am led to deliver any kinds of warnings , its often seen as the wrong appraoch . BUT how on earth can it be the wrong approach . Let us study how JESUS spoke and how he approached all , his attitude towards sin , YET his mercy towards those who repented . I even seem to notice that as the lady who was stoned , whom JESUS saved from being stoned by simply preaching truth , even HE told her . NOR do i condmen you , BUT YOU GO and SIN NO MORE . WE must keep the pattern that they set . YES Indeed . As you well know a false image of GOD has been presented by masses . But let us remember what both JESUS did and said and what those apostles would later write . HOW DID they view unrepentant sin . HOW Did they view sin . Exactly .
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 8, 2020 5:15:31 GMT -5
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angles. Luke 9:23-26 I had mentioned that I did not want to close out this thread just yet because I did not feel that I was done here. That is because we spent all of our time on denying the Lord, the very first post, and little on this second post, also containing the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. He tells us that if we are ashamed of Him and His words, He will be ashamed of us when he shall come in His own glory, and in the Father's, and of the holy angels. What exactly does that mean in practical terms? Imagine this.
You are in the presence of God having to give account for your life, and Jesus refuses to come forward to defend you. Why? Because He is ashamed of you. You are now standing there with nobody to vouge for you that you are saved, and you are defenseless. If we do not want that to happen, we must never be ashamed of Jesus Christ or His teachings.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Sept 8, 2020 6:31:21 GMT -5
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angles. Luke 9:23-26 I had mentioned that I did not want to close out this thread just yet because I did not feel that I was done here. That is because we spent all of our time on denying the Lord, the very first post, and little on this second post, also containing the words of the Lord Jesus Christ. He tells us that if we are ashamed of Him and His words, He will be ashamed of us when he shall come in His own glory, and in the Father's, and of the holy angels. What exactly does that mean in practical terms? Imagine this.
You are in the presence of God having to give account for your life, and Jesus refuses to come forward to defend you. Why? Because He is ashamed of you. You are now standing there with nobody to vouge for you that you are saved, and you are defenseless. If we do not want that to happen, we must never be ashamed of Jesus Christ or His teachings.
Yes indeed . Instead let all cling to the LORD and His every word . For all His sayings are as meat unto the soul and works good towards all who do love Him . To love Him IS to obey Him . And if we see any that does err we must be fast to restore such a one . Always correcting them , for their own good and for the good of all the brethren . For a lil leaven can leaven the group fast . As we see in acts . Even barnabas and others had been taken in the dissumulation. Leave error in a church and only more error shall beget it . Error begets only more error . So we must be diligent to always speak sound doctrine and to follow the pattern of OUR LORD and the apostles in all manner of things .
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Sept 8, 2020 6:47:35 GMT -5
There are a couple of instances (if memory serves) where Paul said he was speaking as a man, and so that was not of the Spirit necessarily, but then again I don't think he was wrong in what he was saying "as a man" either. But all the rest were things he was unctioned to write to the churches, so all the rest was of God. No I don't believe there are cultural biases against women in the New Testament. I consider it a dangerous and slippery slope to start doubting the truth of the scriptures. But it's hugely important to minister the word in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the flesh and carnal mind. The way of the Spirit is a way of liberty and life and fosters growth, whereas the other way is bondage and death. Yes the way paul delivered it and JESUS and all other apostels delivered the word . IS the same way we should . Its why its of dire importance we stay refreshed in those writings . DID you know sister , that though often when i am led to deliver any kinds of warnings , its often seen as the wrong appraoch . BUT how on earth can it be the wrong approach . Let us study how JESUS spoke and how he approached all , his attitude towards sin , YET his mercy towards those who repented . I even seem to notice that as the lady who was stoned , whom JESUS saved from being stoned by simply preaching truth , even HE told her . NOR do i condmen you , BUT YOU GO and SIN NO MORE . WE must keep the pattern that they set . YES Indeed . As you well know a false image of GOD has been presented by masses . But let us remember what both JESUS did and said and what those apostles would later write . HOW DID they view unrepentant sin . HOW Did they view sin . Exactly . Amen brother, we want to keep the same pattern and approach, for sure, and I would never say or think otherwise. I love the way the word of God is pure Spirit without any mixture of flesh, and how Jesus did not condemn the sinner but granted them mercy, setting them free. His word may make us feel convicted, or it may just make us feel washed, but I have never have felt condemned by the scriptures. He condemns sin in us but He does not condemn we ourselves. The blood of Jesus stands between the child of God and His wrath/judgment/condemnation. Now that doesn't mean we are to use our liberty as a license to sin, it does not mean we can be careless or reckless with our freedom from wrath, God forbid, because that would be trampling His blood underfoot.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 8, 2020 10:34:43 GMT -5
Yes the way paul delivered it and JESUS and all other apostels delivered the word . IS the same way we should . Its why its of dire importance we stay refreshed in those writings . DID you know sister , that though often when i am led to deliver any kinds of warnings , its often seen as the wrong appraoch . BUT how on earth can it be the wrong approach . Let us study how JESUS spoke and how he approached all , his attitude towards sin , YET his mercy towards those who repented . I even seem to notice that as the lady who was stoned , whom JESUS saved from being stoned by simply preaching truth , even HE told her . NOR do i condmen you , BUT YOU GO and SIN NO MORE . WE must keep the pattern that they set . YES Indeed . As you well know a false image of GOD has been presented by masses . But let us remember what both JESUS did and said and what those apostles would later write . HOW DID they view unrepentant sin . HOW Did they view sin . Exactly . Amen brother, we want to keep the same pattern and approach, for sure, and I would never say or think otherwise. I love the way the word of God is pure Spirit without any mixture of flesh, and how Jesus did not condemn the sinner but granted them mercy, setting them free. His word may make us feel convicted, or it may just make us feel washed, but I have never have felt condemned by the scriptures. He condemns sin in us but He does not condemn we ourselves. The blood of Jesus stands between the child of God and His wrath/judgment/condemnation. Now that doesn't mean we are to use our liberty as a license to sin, it does not mean we can be careless or reckless with our freedom from wrath, God forbid, because that would be trampling His blood underfoot. When I have been committing willful sins, I felt condemnation. It is not like the blood covering makes it impossible for God to see wrong doing in His children. He sees everything we say and do. Ananias and Sapphira committed a single sin, and that led to them being in this world one moment and in hell the next. This may not be how you mean it, but what you are saying sounds an awful lot like the kind of things I hear from OSAS believers. Maybe you can explain how what you are saying differs? Do you believe there is a point where a Christian can come into condemnation if they return back into committing willful sins?
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 8, 2020 10:37:13 GMT -5
Let us return back to this topic for a moment. We have been told by the Lord that if we deny Him or are ashamed of Him and his sayings, he will deny and be ashamed of us. A Christian most certainly can do that, which means they most certainly can come under condemnation. If they commit these sins, and do not repent, without the Lord standing in the gap for us, we will not make it to heaven. That is just the sad reality of it.
|
|
|
Post by bethany on Sept 8, 2020 10:54:08 GMT -5
Amen brother, we want to keep the same pattern and approach, for sure, and I would never say or think otherwise. I love the way the word of God is pure Spirit without any mixture of flesh, and how Jesus did not condemn the sinner but granted them mercy, setting them free. His word may make us feel convicted, or it may just make us feel washed, but I have never have felt condemned by the scriptures. He condemns sin in us but He does not condemn we ourselves. The blood of Jesus stands between the child of God and His wrath/judgment/condemnation. Now that doesn't mean we are to use our liberty as a license to sin, it does not mean we can be careless or reckless with our freedom from wrath, God forbid, because that would be trampling His blood underfoot. When I have been committing willful sins, I felt condemnation. It is not like the blood covering makes it impossible for God to see wrong doing in His children. He sees everything we say and do. Ananias and Sapphira committed a single sin, and that led to them being in this world one moment and in hell the next. This may not be how you mean it, but what you are saying sounds an awful lot like the kind of things I hear from OSAS believers. Maybe you can explain how what you are saying differs? Do you believe there is a point where a Christian can come into condemnation if they return back into committing willful sins?
I see things more like the situation with a loving parent and disobedience. Yes, I have disobeyed, I am wrong, my conscience is bothering me, I have to repent and deal with the consequences of the disobedience. But through it all, I know my parent loves me and is disciplining me for my own good, and is ready to forgive me afterwards.
|
|
|
Post by bethany on Sept 8, 2020 10:55:49 GMT -5
Let us return back to this topic for a moment. We have been told by the Lord that if we deny Him or are ashamed of Him and his sayings, he will deny and be ashamed of us. A Christian most certainly can do that, which means they most certainly can come under condemnation. If they commit these sins, and do not repent, without the Lord standing in the gap for us, we will not make it to heaven. That is just the sad reality of it.
Please define what you mean by condemnation.
|
|