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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 8:50:49 GMT -5
What To Do (And NOT Do) When The Mark Of The Beast Is Implemented
When Daniel knew that the document had been signed, he went to his house where he had windows in his upper chamber open toward Jerusalem. He got down on his knees three times a day and prayed and gave thanks before his God, as he had done previously. (Daniel 6:10)
If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills (or 'is to be killed') with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. (Revelation 13:10)
"Do not resist the one who is evil. But if anyone slaps you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well." (Matthew 5:39,40)
"Whoever loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me. And whoever does not take his cross and follow Me is not worthy of Me." (Matthew 10:37,38)
He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in His mouth. When He was reviled, He did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but continued entrusting Himself to Him who judges justly. (1 Peter 2:22,23)
Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? As it is written,
"For Your sake we are being killed all the day long;
we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.
For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 8:36-39)
(Love God, and preserve your eternal life by remaining in Jesus. Do NOT try to preserve your physical life---either by taking the mark or by taking up the sword.)
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2018 9:14:18 GMT -5
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22:36
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 10:38:06 GMT -5
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22:36
Continuing,
For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end. (Luke 22:37 KJV)
"For I tell you that this Scripture must be fulfilled in Me: 'And He was numbered with the transgressors.' For what is written about Me has its fulfillment. (Luke 22:37 ESV)
The Lord clearly explained that the purpose of the sword was to fulfill the things that were written about Him in the Scriptures, as He had to fulfill all of those things that were written about Him in the Law and the Prophets. And when the disciples told Him that they had two swords, He replied that 'it was enough' (Luke 22:38), that is, enough to fulfill the Scripture.
And see what the Lord's response was when one of His disciples actually wielded the sword in His defense:
And when those who were around Him saw what would follow, they said, "Lord, shall we strike with the sword?" And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear. But Jesus said, "No more of this!" And He touched his ear and healed him. (Luke 22:49-51)
Then they came up and laid hands on Jesus and seized Him. And behold, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his ear. Then Jesus said to him, "Put your sword back into its place. For all who take the sword will perish by the sword." (Matthew 26:52)
Then Simeon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant and cut off his right ear. (The servant's name was Malchus.) So Jesus said to Peter, "Put your sword back into its sheath; shall I not drink the cup that the Father has given Me?" (John 18:10,11)
"If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would have been fighting, that I might not be delivered over to the Jews. But My kingdom is not of from the world." (John 18:36)
Nowhere in the New Testament, from the gospels to the Revelation, did Jesus ever teach, command or approve of His disciples using physical force to defend Him or themselves (or to keep anything they had).
Nowhere in the New Testament did any of His apostles or followers---including Peter, after the Lord rebuked him for doing so---teach or demonstrate that kind of behavior either. They all went to their deaths or to persecution in the same way that Jesus Christ Himself did, because they understood the teachings of the faith.
Nowhere in the New Testament is Christians using force in self defense, or engaging in physical combat, either approved or taught, but rather the very opposite. Prayer is our weapon and our defense, not force. We do not wrestle against flesh and blood, and the weapons of our warfare are not the weapons of the flesh but of the Spirit. Christians who do use force in self defense, or who go to war, are out of God's will, due to their own misunderstanding of the teachings of the New Testament, and not understanding what God's will for His people is under the New Covenant.
(If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword (or 'is to be killed with the sword'), with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints. (REVELATION 13:10))
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2018 10:51:47 GMT -5
Jesus didn't want the disciples fighting for him because he was willingly going to the cross, not because they were sinning in defending him. What had to be fulfilled that required them to have a sword? Nothing I am aware of. The only purpose in having a sword is self defense. I would kill in self defense or to protect my family and friends.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 11:22:10 GMT -5
Jesus didn't want the disciples fighting for him because he was willingly going to the cross, not because they were sinning in defending him. What had to be fulfilled that required them to have a sword? Nothing I am aware of. The only purpose in having a sword is self defense. I would kill in self defense or to protect my family and friends.
The Lord explained that it was to fulfill the Scripture about Him being numbered with the transgressors (Isaiah 53:12), as the previously posted Scriptures state. It was NOT for the purpose of self defense, as I explained and showed in my previous post. That is simply a misunderstanding of the Scriptures that some Christians have and which they use to support their belief that Christians should defend themselves with force, which is not a New Testament teaching. But recall the former days when, after you were enlightened, you endured a hard struggle with sufferings, sometimes being publicly exposed to reproach and affliction, and sometimes being partners with those so treated. For you had compassion on those in prison, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. (Hebrews 10:32-34) These Christians correctly understood the teachings of the faith. We can defend ourselves and our loved ones by prayer, and God will act according to His will, which we should accept. It is not necessarily His will for us to live, or for us to keep what we think we should keep (including loved ones). If it is, He will protect those things. If it is not, He won't. But using force or violence to keep ourselves or others alive or to defend them from harm is not in agreement with the teachings of the New Testament, and Christians who believe that it is are simply mistaken. A man who prays for God to protect him and his family, if that is His will, trusting in His sovereignty over all circumstances and believing that everything He causes or allows in a Christian's life is for his or her eternal good (if that Christian loves Him), and being fully submitted to the will of God, no matter what it involves, does not love his family any less than a man who defends them with a gun. He just loves God more than he loves his own life or his family, and his concern is doing the will of God above all, which is exactly as it should be. "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be My disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after Me cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26,27)
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2018 11:36:03 GMT -5
Jesus would have been numbered with the transgressors even if they had no swords. You have not shown why they needed swords to fulfil that prophesy. Anyway, for those who see it as wrong to defend themselves, don't do it.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 12:34:52 GMT -5
Jesus would have been numbered with the transgressors even if they had no swords. You have not shown why they needed swords to fulfil that prophesy. Anyway, for those who see it as wrong to defend themselves, don't do it.
It probably had to do with the swords making the disciples seem to be malefactors or troublemakers of some kind in the eyes of those who would arrest the Lord. But it's quite obvious from the Scriptures that I listed in my original response that the purpose of the swords was not for self-defense, but rather to fulfill Scripture, which is why Jesus rebuked Peter for using one of them to defend Him and told him to put it back in its sheath, with a warning about taking up the sword, besides the Lord telling the disciples that having two swords was "enough" to serve the purpose for which they were intended, which was obviously not self defense. (The Scriptures provided in my original response make this very clear.) You can do whatever you want to do, but I've told you the truth about this, and the entire New Testament supports what I have said (as it does NOT support the teaching of self-defense or violence of any kind on the part of a Christian, for any reason), so you can't say you weren't warned. Follow the teachings and the example of Jesus Christ and of His apostles, not the teachings of men, to be in the will of God. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:19) (And two of those "commandments" are Matthew 5:39,40 and Matthew 5:44.)
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2018 12:48:22 GMT -5
It is obvious to me they were for self defense. There was no other reason for them to have swords. You warned me, and I don't agree with you, so I don't receive it. Each individual must decide who is correct, but I will kill anyone trying to harm me or my family with no concern I would be doing anything wrong. Jesus said purchase a sword, even if you must sell something to do it.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 12:57:51 GMT -5
It is obvious to me they were for self defense. There was no other reason for them to have swords. You warned me, and I don't agree with you, so I don't receive it. Each individual must decide who is correct, but I will kill anyone trying to harm me or my family with no concern I would be doing anything wrong. Jesus said purchase a sword, even if you must sell something to do it.
So be it, brother. But what Jesus said about buying a sword, for the purpose I already explained, was to His disciples at that time and for that purpose, and not to Christians in general for the purpose of self-defense. I don't have anything more to say about this subject.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jun 20, 2018 13:22:36 GMT -5
John tlsitd Abby-Joy Well, some thoughts on self defense:
"For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain." - Philippians 1:21
"Or do you think that I cannot now pray to My Father, and He will provide Me with more than twelve legions of angels?" - Matthew 26:53
"Unless the Lord builds the house, They labor in vain who build it; Unless the Lord guards the city, The watchman stays awake in vain." - Psalm 127:1
"Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will." - Matthew 10:29
"Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows." - Matthew 10:31
"Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord." - Romans 12:19
"who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously;" - 1 Peter 2:23
"And who is he who will harm you if you become followers of what is good? But even if you should suffer for righteousness' sake, you are blessed. “And do not be afraid of their threats, nor be troubled.”" - 1 Peter 3:13-14
"For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will find it." - Matthew 16:25
In who are we trusting?!
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Post by John on Jun 20, 2018 13:37:56 GMT -5
It is obvious to me they were for self defense. There was no other reason for them to have swords. You warned me, and I don't agree with you, so I don't receive it. Each individual must decide who is correct, but I will kill anyone trying to harm me or my family with no concern I would be doing anything wrong. Jesus said purchase a sword, even if you must sell something to do it.
So be it, brother. But what Jesus said about buying a sword, for the purpose I already explained, was to His disciples at that time and for that purpose, and not to Christians in general for the purpose of self-defense. I don't have anything more to say about this subject. Sister Lights, the only reason I am posting this is just so you will understand how I look at that verse. It is not to argue or have the last word or anything like that. I take it that now that Jesus was about to go to the cross, conditions on the ground have changed. He tells them not only to buy a sword, but to have a purse and scrip. I do not see this as only applying to them at that time, but to anyone in need of those things. There is only one purpose for a sword. It makes no sense to think they had swords for props to make it look good when the officials showed up to take Jesus.
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Post by tlsitd on Jun 20, 2018 15:30:02 GMT -5
So be it, brother. But what Jesus said about buying a sword, for the purpose I already explained, was to His disciples at that time and for that purpose, and not to Christians in general for the purpose of self-defense. I don't have anything more to say about this subject. Sister Lights, the only reason I am posting this is just so you will understand how I look at that verse. It is not to argue or have the last word or anything like that. I take it that now that Jesus was about to go to the cross, conditions on the ground have changed. He tells them not only to buy a sword, but to have a purse and scrip. I do not see this as only applying to them at that time, but to anyone in need of those things. There is only one purpose for a sword. It makes no sense to think they had swords for props to make it look good when the officials showed up to take Jesus.
The purpose of the other items had to do with what Jesus mentioned in the previous verse: When I sent you without purse, and scrip (or 'bag') and shoes (or 'sandals'), lacked ye anything? And they said, Nothing. (Luke 22:35) This was probably to show the disciples that His reason for telling them to take those items---specifically "a purse" and "a bag"---now, when they had previously not needed them, was not because God was not able to provide for them, as He had been, which the disciples acknowleged, but because those things were necessary for the occasion, most likely for the same reason as the swords---to give the Jews a reason to accuse them of some kind of wrongdoing---stealing perhaps, or preaching for money.
Notice that "sword" was not included among the items the Lord mentioned (purse, bag, sandals). He didn't say, "And when I sent you out without a sword, did anyone harm you?" If it had ever been His will for them to carry a sword for self-defense He would have contradicted His own teaching about not resisting evil and turning the other cheek. They had two swords, among eleven disciples, and the Lord said that that was enough for the purpose, even though He had said that anyone who didn't have a sword should sell his cloak to buy one. If He had wanted them to have swords for self defense, all of the disciples should have gone out and bought one. The swords were only to fulfill Scripture, as the Lord explained, as it was necessary for Him to do. This was not an instruction to His disciples to begin carrying swords to defend themselves from that time forth, which it is quite obvious from the subsequent events and the teachings of the New Testament and the examples of the apostles themselves in Acts that He did not mean or intend by what He said to His disciples on that specific occasion, for a specific purpose.
It's not wise to build a doctrine around one verse of Scripture when the whole New Testament demonstrates and teaches something other than what people who use this one Scripture to support believe it means, and to disregard the abundance of Scriptural evidence that that understanding and interpretation of this Scripture is incorrect. If you want to disregard the rest of the New Testament, and even the subsequent events of that very account from which that particular Scripture comes, which prove that it does not teach what some Christians think it teaches---that's your choice. But it's a wrong understanding of it, as I've said.
Rather than dwelling on that one Scripture, why not read through the whole New Testament and see what support you can find for the self-defense interpretation, in the life and teachings of the Lord, or of any of His apostles, or in the references to and descriptions of the lives of the saints that are in Acts and the Epistles.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Jun 20, 2018 16:07:48 GMT -5
Being mobile right now, it's hard to write a long comment. But I do agree with brother John. John
Self defense is a different issue altogether but if I was present when a child or elderly were being harmed, and I had the means to stop them, I would do anything I could (avoiding taking a life) to stop them. Are you saying that God would want you to stand by and allow a child to be raped, beaten, tortured if you had the means to stop it? What about a scenario where a woman is married to an abusive man and he punishes her by making a rule..."Either you stay home from church, or she does." ("She" being her daughter.) And knowing that her child would be sexually abused if she didn't comply. Or what about if she knew the abuse was happening? Is she wrong in protecting her child? (This falls under "persecution" in my opinion.) Would it be wrong to step in if a woman sees her child being harmed? Since physical action is discouraged (in the opinion of some), what should be done?
Personally, I don't see a conflict with scripture in defending children, the oppressed, widows/elderly, etc.
Will be back later.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Jun 20, 2018 16:21:48 GMT -5
Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip; and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment and buy one. Luke 22:36
Exactly. We cannot completely disregard this verse being the words of Jesus instructing them to buy a sword. And as indicated by the other verses regarding Peter...Jesus said to put his sword "back in its place." The reason was that Jesus was about to be apprehended and fulfill the purpose of why He came. He did not tell Peter to get rid of the sword. He said to put it "in its place" meaning, there was a place for it and obviously, it wasn't for decoration. This was not the time to use it. In bringing all the scriptures TOGETHER, and not disregarding one... it stands to reason that there was a purpose for Jesus's instruction to buy a sword. Okay...I really need to get a few things done here....bbl...
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Jun 20, 2018 16:53:47 GMT -5
King david was a man of war... and a man after Gods heart. God did tell him he was not to build the temple because he had shed much blood, and so his son was to do it. But what was Davids standing with God? in Nehemiah they was in captivity and when they were released and came back they had to rebuild the wall. there was people trying to stop them and kill them. it says they worked with one hand, and had a weapon in another. What makes it wrong is intent of the heart. the term is used liers in wait. its referenced elsewhere in the bible as a lion waiting beside a path to devour. If you do not plot to kill and do malice you are not guilty of murder. but if in your heart you feel its wrong, then it is. God does not use/call us all to do the same stuff. I believe there is a purity in those who say defending yourself is wrong... a purity that unless God puts it in me i will never have. If you feel its wrong under any circumstance, and that what i have said is wrong then you should pray for those who share my point of view because those of us who say our heart is not condemned in doing so... its not likely we will change our mind based on a friendly debate of scripture. And i have prayed about this. My heart is clear to defend myself and my family. I even pray about what weapons to acquire and for proper training to use them. which I have. For the record, i do not want to harm anyone, and when God saved me my nature was changed right then on being malicious. I no longer wanted to harm anyone. The Book says to be at peace with everyone you can be at peace with. some people dont want peace. Honestly i fear answering God for allowing someone to harm my family more so than i do for the opposite. To me i would feel like a coward and be very ashamed if i sat back and did nothing. I do not know if i could live with that.
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