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Post by watchful on Jun 24, 2022 11:06:08 GMT -5
All I know is the same thing that keeps us faithful to the end is the same thing that saved us in the beginning. JESUS and His sheer mercy to the undeserving. Let us keep our confidence in HIM because the devil would try to pry our eyes off Him and onto ourselves, to cause us to fall from grace. Normally when I am having a disagreement with someone, I understand what the disagreement is about. You said that we should give the whole council of the Word of God, and I did not disagree with you. I just said that we all have our part, and God uses us in different ways. We should not be disagreeing, because the Word is the Word, but we may emphasize different parts of the Bible.
At times I feel like I am talking to an OSAS believe when I am talking to you, where at other times, you say the exact opposite. If you think that Frienduff or I am in some kind of error, it would be helpful to know what it is so we can try to figure things out. If not, as I said, you are a member here, and have the ability to discuss things like Peter walking on the water or anything in the Bible. We are all believers in the inerrancy of scripture. I cannot read minds, so if there is an issue, say what it is.
Well, that's the whole problem that I'm concerned about brother....grace and mercy almost seem to be forbidden topics around here. If talking about grace and mercy automatically slots someone in a camp of error then that's concerning, since grace and mercy are the basis of the gospel. Without it we have no gospel at all. I'll do my best to lay this out, the Lord helping: The bible says in Galations 5:3 that if we seek to be justified by the law we have fallen from grace.Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith That is such a beautiful scripture to me....the righteousness which is of God by faith, not our own righteousness. One's own righteousness is of the law.......self.......it falls short even if you're not sinning....our righteousness is as filthy rags. I discovered the hard way that the same thing that saved us in the first place is the same thing that keeps us, and also can deliver us from sin if we have stumbled in some way. Which is faith in Jesus and His sheer mercy. Not faith in ourselves to keep ourselves or deliver ourselves from sin. But belief in His promise like Abraham who believed that God was able to perform that which He promised.....our salvation. It is His righteousness that has been imputed to us. Out of sheer undeserved mercy for our helpless estate, not because we can ever deserve it ourselves. Therefore our eyes need to be focused on Jesus, not on ourselves. It is that faith in Him and His mercy that we are to walk in, and it is FROM that faith and spirit that HIS righteousness flows, to whatever measure we have received, not from a spirit of intimidation and fear where our eyes are on ourselves and our own effort.....but by walking in His forgiveness and mercy and grace, which is so opposite to man's ways. Man thinks we need to be driven by craven fear and beaten and threatened into submission, but unfortunately that is counterproductive.....it has the opposite effect we would want...it causes us to take our eyes off Jesus's mercy and onto ourselves which means we have fallen from grace and are back in bondage with sin having dominion in a very real way. Jesus is the lifter of our head, not the beater-down of it. Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. By staying in His grace and mercy (or returning to it) sin no longer has dominion over us. And the opposite is true....that's the problem I fell into obsessing about the decor in my house, could never get it good enough, and guilt tripping myself into bondage and the harder I struggled the tighter the chains got. And what a reflection of how I see myself, never perfect enough! I also discovered the truth of where it says when our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things. When I'm down on myself as I'm often prone to do, I know what to do now....and it works....I take my eyes off myself and put them back on Jesus....I read scriptures that remind me of His mercy, His greatness, His power, and the beauty and loveliness of His nature. He is greater than my heart, that's for sure. Voila, my head is lifted, I am lifted up and encouraged, no longer thinking about myself and all my shortcomings and flaws but thinking about Jesus and His righteousness....and from that more righteousness flows than from flogging myself. Just going to mention this about mercy. As we are to serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the letter because the letter kills. Here's just one example of a way that might apply to the commandments and sayings of Jesus. The letter of Jesus' teaching is that if a man puts away his wife and marries another he has committed adultery. I was presented one time with a dilemma of how one would advise or counsel someone who had divorced and remarried and later realized his sin in doing that......what to do about it now after having already remarried and especially in case of having children with the new wife. Should he divorce the new wife and leave the family or what should he do? Well, according to the letter of the law (Jesus' words) he should, after all he is in an adulterous marriage. But the Lord finally answered my inquiry with a single emphatic word (which He sometimes spearheads His answers to me with a single word)....that word was MERCY. In a flash I saw what He was saying. I hope others can see and understand as well.
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Post by John on Jun 24, 2022 15:04:25 GMT -5
Normally when I am having a disagreement with someone, I understand what the disagreement is about. You said that we should give the whole council of the Word of God, and I did not disagree with you. I just said that we all have our part, and God uses us in different ways. We should not be disagreeing, because the Word is the Word, but we may emphasize different parts of the Bible.
At times I feel like I am talking to an OSAS believe when I am talking to you, where at other times, you say the exact opposite. If you think that Frienduff or I am in some kind of error, it would be helpful to know what it is so we can try to figure things out. If not, as I said, you are a member here, and have the ability to discuss things like Peter walking on the water or anything in the Bible. We are all believers in the inerrancy of scripture. I cannot read minds, so if there is an issue, say what it is.
Well, that's the whole problem that I'm concerned about brother....grace and mercy almost seem to be forbidden topics around here. If talking about grace and mercy automatically slots someone in a camp of error then that's concerning, since grace and mercy are the basis of the gospel. Without it we have no gospel at all. I'll do my best to lay this out, the Lord helping: The bible says in Galations 5:3 that if we seek to be justified by the law we have fallen from grace.Phl 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith That is such a beautiful scripture to me....the righteousness which is of God by faith, not our own righteousness. One's own righteousness is of the law.......self.......it falls short even if you're not sinning....our righteousness is as filthy rags. I discovered the hard way that the same thing that saved us in the first place is the same thing that keeps us, and also can deliver us from sin if we have stumbled in some way. Which is faith in Jesus and His sheer mercy. Not faith in ourselves to keep ourselves or deliver ourselves from sin. But belief in His promise like Abraham who believed that God was able to perform that which He promised.....our salvation. It is His righteousness that has been imputed to us. Out of sheer undeserved mercy for our helpless estate, not because we can ever deserve it ourselves. Therefore our eyes need to be focused on Jesus, not on ourselves. It is that faith in Him and His mercy that we are to walk in, and it is FROM that faith and spirit that HIS righteousness flows, to whatever measure we have received, not from a spirit of intimidation and fear where our eyes are on ourselves and our own effort.....but by walking in His forgiveness and mercy and grace, which is so opposite to man's ways. Man thinks we need to be driven by craven fear and beaten and threatened into submission, but unfortunately that is counterproductive.....it has the opposite effect we would want...it causes us to take our eyes off Jesus's mercy and onto ourselves which means we have fallen from grace and are back in bondage with sin having dominion in a very real way. Jesus is the lifter of our head, not the beater-down of it. Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. By staying in His grace and mercy (or returning to it) sin no longer has dominion over us. And the opposite is true....that's the problem I fell into obsessing about the decor in my house, could never get it good enough, and guilt tripping myself into bondage and the harder I struggled the tighter the chains got. And what a reflection of how I see myself, never perfect enough! I also discovered the truth of where it says when our hearts condemn us, God is greater than our hearts and knows all things. When I'm down on myself as I'm often prone to do, I know what to do now....and it works....I take my eyes off myself and put them back on Jesus....I read scriptures that remind me of His mercy, His greatness, His power, and the beauty and loveliness of His nature. He is greater than my heart, that's for sure. Voila, my head is lifted, I am lifted up and encouraged, no longer thinking about myself and all my shortcomings and flaws but thinking about Jesus and His righteousness....and from that more righteousness flows than from flogging myself. Just going to mention this about mercy. As we are to serve in the new way of the spirit, not the old way of the letter because the letter kills. Here's just one example of a way that might apply to the commandments and sayings of Jesus. The letter of Jesus' teaching is that if a man puts away his wife and marries another he has committed adultery. I was presented one time with a dilemma of how one would advise or counsel someone who had divorced and remarried and later realized his sin in doing that......what to do about it now after having already remarried and especially in case of having children with the new wife. Should he divorce the new wife and leave the family or what should he do? Well, according to the letter of the law (Jesus' words) he should, after all he is in an adulterous marriage. But the Lord finally answered my inquiry with a single emphatic word (which He sometimes spearheads His answers to me with a single word)....that word was MERCY. In a flash I saw what He was saying. I hope others can see and understand as well. And yet the scripture in Philippians 2:12 tells us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." That can seem like it contradicts Romans 8:15, until one realizes that if you leave out verse 14, it is not in context. This is conditional. "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father." This goes along with another conditional promise from Galatians 5:18, that "if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law." If we are not being led of the Spirit, the law remains as a schoolmaster to show us right from wrong. We cannot save ourselves without faith in Jesus because old sins and things done in error would remain to separate us from God. The letter killing refers to those seeking to save themselves by following the law without trusting in Jesus.
As for your divorce example, the letter of the law does not say divorce and re-marriage is prohibited. Jesus is the one that taught us that. If I am in a situation of counseling a person that is divorced and re-married, I would counsel them to repent of adultery and commit to their marriage, but if they are not already in that position but are divorced, my counsel is to reconcile or remain single. Different people have different views on this, but this is about what Jesus taught, not "the letter." Here is what the letter that killeth says in Deuteronomy 24:1,2
"WHEN a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her; then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife."
That is the letter, and it can kill as it does not take into account what Jesus said.
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Post by watchful on Jun 24, 2022 17:20:08 GMT -5
The curse of the Law is what kills and causes one to fall from grace....the condemnation behind it. But Jesus became a curse for us, freeing us from the curse of the Law by His mercy. Only we are not to use our freedom as an occasion to sin. There are plenty of Laws and commands....they are good when used properly, ie, in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the letter. That one about divorce in the OT Law was a concession because their hearts were hard...all laws are not concessions but "the letter of the law kills" applies to all of the laws.
But just like judges in a court of law have leeway to exercise their own judgment, taking into account all the circumstances, and the letter of the law is not always applied....so there are times when we need to ask the Lord for His wisdom and His judgment as to how to handle different circumstances, and I'm glad I did in that case, it really taught me something about His mercy. It's so vitally important that we not neglect mercy, I can't say it strongly enough.
The strength of sin is the Law:
Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
Whoo-eeee, I was living through those scriptures and proving them all true....and lived through Romans 8 setting me free from the law of sin and death...no condemnation...realizing I was not condemned but under mercy set me free from sin having dominion...no more bondage. It was all demonstrated in my life in that situation and I was reading in those scriptures as I was going through it. What had saved me in the first place was now the same thing that was delivering me from that trap. Faith in Jesus and His MERCY!
Romans 8 also talks about the carnal mind being enmity with God and not being able to obey......the letter of the law brings carnal knowledge of the sin and to be carnally minded is death.....it has no power to set you free, on the contrary it has power to bring you into bondage. My mind was condemning me and it was a difficult battle to return to having faith in Jesus' mercy and grace in that situation. That's why we shouldn't focus on sin per se, but have our minds fixed above on Jesus. Be in the spirit, not in the mind. He is greater than our sins and shortcomings, greater than our hearts when our hearts condemn us.
God had to remind me of this:
Rom 8:9
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Instead of trying in my own strength and flesh to fight the bondage.....all I had to do was give it over to God and forget about me and the problem....just fixed my eyes on Jesus again, having faith in Him, so that I unconsciously started to "do by nature the things contained in the Law"....ie, by the new nature of His Spirit in me.
It is a hard thing to explain, I hope this is understandable to you, I don't have time to look this over, so I'll just post it as is and hope for the best.
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Post by John on Jun 24, 2022 18:39:25 GMT -5
The curse of the Law is what kills and causes one to fall from grace....the condemnation behind it. But Jesus became a curse for us, freeing us from the curse of the Law by His mercy. Only we are not to use our freedom as an occasion to sin. There are plenty of Laws and commands....they are good when used properly, ie, in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the letter. That one about divorce in the OT Law was a concession because their hearts were hard...all laws are not concessions but "the letter of the law kills" applies to all of the laws. But just like judges in a court of law have leeway to exercise their own judgment, taking into account all the circumstances, and the letter of the law is not always applied....so there are times when we need to ask the Lord for His wisdom and His judgment as to how to handle different circumstances, and I'm glad I did in that case, it really taught me something about His mercy. It's so vitally important that we not neglect mercy, I can't say it strongly enough. The strength of sin is the Law: Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Whoo-eeee, I was living through those scriptures and proving them all true....and lived through Romans 8 setting me free from the law of sin and death...no condemnation...realizing I was not condemned but under mercy set me free from sin having dominion...no more bondage. It was all demonstrated in my life in that situation and I was reading in those scriptures as I was going through it. What had saved me in the first place was now the same thing that was delivering me from that trap. Faith in Jesus and His MERCY! Romans 8 also talks about the carnal mind being enmity with God and not being able to obey......the letter of the law brings carnal knowledge of the sin and to be carnally minded is death.....it has no power to set you free, on the contrary it has power to bring you into bondage. My mind was condemning me and it was a difficult battle to return to having faith in Jesus' mercy and grace in that situation. That's why we shouldn't focus on sin per se, but have our minds fixed above on Jesus. Be in the spirit, not in the mind. He is greater than our sins and shortcomings, greater than our hearts when our hearts condemn us. God had to remind me of this: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Instead of trying in my own strength and flesh to fight the bondage.....all I had to do was give it over to God and forget about me and the problem....just fixed my eyes on Jesus again, having faith in Him, so that I unconsciously started to "do by nature the things contained in the Law"....ie, by the new nature of His Spirit in me. It is a hard thing to explain, I hope this is understandable to you, I don't have time to look this over, so I'll just post it as is and hope for the best. There is a change from Romans 7 to Romans 8, where Paul goes from describing life under the law to life under the New Covenant. The condemnation is taken away when our sins are washed away. The key to being out from under the letter of the law is to walk in the Spirit. If you are Spirit led, you will not sin.
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Post by watchful on Jun 25, 2022 7:26:28 GMT -5
The curse of the Law is what kills and causes one to fall from grace....the condemnation behind it. But Jesus became a curse for us, freeing us from the curse of the Law by His mercy. Only we are not to use our freedom as an occasion to sin. There are plenty of Laws and commands....they are good when used properly, ie, in the new way of the Spirit, not the old way of the letter. That one about divorce in the OT Law was a concession because their hearts were hard...all laws are not concessions but "the letter of the law kills" applies to all of the laws. But just like judges in a court of law have leeway to exercise their own judgment, taking into account all the circumstances, and the letter of the law is not always applied....so there are times when we need to ask the Lord for His wisdom and His judgment as to how to handle different circumstances, and I'm glad I did in that case, it really taught me something about His mercy. It's so vitally important that we not neglect mercy, I can't say it strongly enough. The strength of sin is the Law: Rom 7:8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Whoo-eeee, I was living through those scriptures and proving them all true....and lived through Romans 8 setting me free from the law of sin and death...no condemnation...realizing I was not condemned but under mercy set me free from sin having dominion...no more bondage. It was all demonstrated in my life in that situation and I was reading in those scriptures as I was going through it. What had saved me in the first place was now the same thing that was delivering me from that trap. Faith in Jesus and His MERCY! Romans 8 also talks about the carnal mind being enmity with God and not being able to obey......the letter of the law brings carnal knowledge of the sin and to be carnally minded is death.....it has no power to set you free, on the contrary it has power to bring you into bondage. My mind was condemning me and it was a difficult battle to return to having faith in Jesus' mercy and grace in that situation. That's why we shouldn't focus on sin per se, but have our minds fixed above on Jesus. Be in the spirit, not in the mind. He is greater than our sins and shortcomings, greater than our hearts when our hearts condemn us. God had to remind me of this: Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. Instead of trying in my own strength and flesh to fight the bondage.....all I had to do was give it over to God and forget about me and the problem....just fixed my eyes on Jesus again, having faith in Him, so that I unconsciously started to "do by nature the things contained in the Law"....ie, by the new nature of His Spirit in me. It is a hard thing to explain, I hope this is understandable to you, I don't have time to look this over, so I'll just post it as is and hope for the best. There is a change from Romans 7 to Romans 8, where Paul goes from describing life under the law to life under the New Covenant. The condemnation is taken away when our sins are washed away. The key to being out from under the letter of the law is to walk in the Spirit. If you are Spirit led, you will not sin. The thing is born again believers who have the Spirit CAN fall from grace and come under the fear and bondage of Law, and we CAN sin even though we have the Spirit. We may not be heeding the Spirit in some area, or a bondage can develop, or a bondage left over from before we were saved that we need to overcome. The lessons of Romans 7/8 are for all of us, not just for Jews coming out from under the Law. Certainly if sin begins in the mind, the answer can't be to think about it more, but it lies in thinking about it less, while thinking about Jesus and believing in His mercy more, who is greater than our sin and self condemnation.....making up one's mind to rest in Him and wait upon HIM to deal with the problem. Romans 1:16 says the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation (from sin) and 1 Peter 1:5 says we are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation (from sin). So what saves us in the beginning is the same thing that also keeps us and can also deliver us. Look to Jesus and have faith in His mercy, receive His mercy applied for the particular sin we're dealing with, and believe it. He came not to condemn but to save. This is so opposite to how man thinks....we think well I don't deserve His mercy, I'm a cad, or so-and-so doesn't deserve it....but meanwhile it is His mercy that saves us from sin, so it is mercy, not condemnation, that we need to help us stop sinning if there's an area we are having trouble with. Even the casting out of a hideous demon is a demonstration of His undeserved mercy, no less than just causing a bondage to evaporate. It's through the gospel by faith and by the Spirit we know what sin is, and which gives us the desire to want and seek Jesus' righteousness and to not sin...."sin not" is Christianity 101...that gets put in us from the beginning, written on our hearts.....though as new believers we benefit from instruction in the word, and then reminding now and then as we go along. So "sin not" isn't what we need to focus on then, it's there, it's part of things, the salt to season with, but not the main meal or main focus.... it's Jesus and His gospel we need to focus on more....His mercy and salvation, and grace and beauty and forgiveness and power and greatness, and He will keep us and we'll find we're just "naturally" keeping His laws by the new nature in us, without so much self conscious self effort, which is our own self righteousness. Let our conversation be FULL of GRACE and SEASONED with salt. There should be less seasoning in the pot than there is the food that nourishes and keeps us alive, one would think. We certainly need the seasoning but that isn't the main diet.
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