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Post by John on Jan 17, 2019 9:56:36 GMT -5
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, but the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together is compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love." Ephesians 4:11-16
The ministry gifts listed here are all divine callings from God. He gifts people to perform these duties. It is very possible, and even profitable, for a single church to have people who possess all of these gifts in their congregation, working together. I want to briefly give an overview of what each office means, based on my personal studies.
APOSTLE: A missionary that goes about evangelizing and establishing churches and gives oversight to them. The word apostle means a messenger, he that is sent, and ambassador of the gospel, a commissioner of Christ.
PROPHET: A foreteller and inspired speaker. It is someone who receives anointed messages from God addressing specific needs in the church. It can be that God impresses on the prophet's heart a specific message from scripture he is to deliver, based on something God knows they need to hear. Another way a prophet is used is to give a word for word message from God. In that instance, the prophet is not injecting any personal opinions, but is speaking only the precise things God has told him to say.
EVANGELIST: A preacher of the gospel, the good news. Their heart is to reach the lost with the message of salvation through faith in Christ. Their main message is to the unsaved.
PASTOR: A Pastor is a shepherd. They look after the flock of sheep in their congregation. They are there to protect them from false teachers and give them sound messages from scripture. If a sheep goes astray, they do their best to seek to restore them.
TEACHER: An instructor, a doctor or master. They instruct in Biblical doctrine, and all doctrine means is what is taught. When you hear someone speak of the need for sound doctrine, they just mean that the teaching should be Bible based.
All of these offices are of great importance, and a single church can have members that have a single one of these gifts, members that have more than one gift, and there can be times where they may have more than one person who is a Pastor, Evangelist, Apostle, Prophet or Teacher. A church should allow everyone to have opportunities to share their gifts, as we work together in service for the Lord.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 17, 2019 10:35:45 GMT -5
To add to the office of teacher... Some teachers are equipped to cover a variety of doctrinal topics. Other teachers may have a call to specialize in a type of counsel or personal coaching.
The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children — Titus 2:3-4
Some teaching is theological while other teaching is practical. Both have value. We need theological underpinnings for our convictions, and then we need practical coaching to live by them. An ideal fellowship has teaching for both.
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Post by John on Jan 17, 2019 12:07:14 GMT -5
To add to the office of teacher... Some teachers are equipped to cover a variety of doctrinal topics. Other teachers may have a call to specialize in a type of counsel or personal coaching. The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children — Titus 2:3-4Some teaching is theological while other teaching is practical. Both have value. We need theological underpinnings for our convictions, and then we need practical coaching to live by them. An ideal fellowship has teaching for both. I completely agree! Just like in medicine, you have general practitioners, and then you have specialists, the same thing applies to teachers. I have always tried to look at the Bible from the standpoint of practical things we need to know to live a life pleasing to God, rather than concerning myself with expertise in details about temple worship, Bible prophecy, historical dates, genealogies, etc. There are people that spend their time in those kind of things, and I will readily admit I am no expert in them, and if that is what you want to know about, go to them. Just look at the things someone like Sister spends her time examining. I have not taken much time in those areas, because it isn't what I feel called to do. I do not try to argue against much of anything she says, because I admit that I don't know enough about those things to say if she is right or wrong, in most instances. That doesn't mean what she teaches is of no value. It means that she knows more about those things than I do. Everyone has their place.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 17, 2019 12:18:37 GMT -5
To add more to the list:
"And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Are all workers of miracles?
Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?" - 1 Corinthians 12:28-30
"But earnestly desire the best gifts..." - 1 Corinthians 12:31
"Let all that you do be done with love." - 1 Corinthians 16:14
I believe it shows that not all will develop all the gifts - while that is possible (if you can believe and seek enough).
But I believe each one has their own calling from God, and God will prepare them to do it (by giving them faith, knowledge, and supernatural ability).
"...Take heed to the ministry which you have received in the Lord, that you may fulfill it." - Colossians 4:17
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by Giller on Jan 20, 2019 1:08:48 GMT -5
I think in the area of a teacher, we have to be careful in the way we define it. For there is the word teacher, and then there is the word rabbi. Here are Greek definitions of these two words: (Strong's concordance, word teacher)
(G1320 διδάσκαλος didaskalos did-as'-kal-os From G1321; an instructor (generally or specifically): - doctor, master, teacher. Total KJV occurrences: 58) | (Strong's concordance, word rabbi)
(G4461 ῥαββί rhabbi hrab-bee' Of Hebrew origin [H7227] with pronominal suffix; my master, that is, Rabbi, as an official title of honor: - Master, Rabbi. Total KJV occurrences: 17) |
Now which one of these definitions truly describes both? Well I find that the word of God self describes itself, and the bible says to compare the word with the word. Here are scriptures: Rom 2:20-21 (20) An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law. (21) Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
| Joh 1:38 (38) Then Jesus turned, and saw them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? They said unto him, Rabbi, (which is to say, being interpreted, Master,) where dwellest thou?
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Now people were called teachers in the bible, and here are examples of this: Act 13:1 (1) Now there were in the church that was at Antioch certain prophets and teachers; as Barnabas, and Simeon that was called Niger, and Lucius of Cyrene, and Manaen, which had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. 2Ti 1:11 (11) Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. Paul called himself a teacher. But as for one being called a rabbi, this is what the bible says: Mat 23:7-8 (7) And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. (8) But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. A teacher is one that instructs in the word of God, but a rabbi is a master teacher, you could say a doctor of divinity, or an expert teacher. God does not want us to call ourselves expert teachers, master teachers etc, for there was only one man that was a true expert teacher or rabbi, and that was Jesus which was fully man and fully God. And who is our expert teacher? Joh 14:26 (26) But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. The Holy Ghost is our expert teacher, and we can know nothing without him. So the true office of a teacher is not an elevated office, nor was it meant to be, but it is a calling given by God to someone, which this someone must enter into this office by the way of humility.
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Post by Giller on Jan 21, 2019 0:29:42 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says:
Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 21, 2019 6:53:44 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for. No, I believe you have misunderstood what was said there. The body as a whole is for the edifying of the body of Christ.
It is said there also: ...for the work of the ministry...
There are people equipped with seeking the lost sheep, and evangelists are definitely one of the people that goes seeking for lost sheep in the world.
But it is not limited to evangelists, the whole body of Christ each one has their responsibilities of caring and witnessing for the lost (thus increasing members of the body).
"...The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore
pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest." - Luke 10:2
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Post by Giller on Jan 21, 2019 10:09:52 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for. No, I believe you have misunderstood what was said there. The body as a whole is for the edifying of the body of Christ.
It is said there also: ...for the work of the ministry...
There are people equipped with seeking the lost sheep, and evangelists are definitely one of the people that goes seeking for lost sheep in the world.
But it is not limited to evangelists, the whole body of Christ each one has their responsibilities of caring and witnessing for the lost (thus increasing members of the body).
"...The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore
pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest." - Luke 10:2I do not really think I did misunderstood, and I did not say there were not used in that capacity, but one big purpose is for actually perfecting the saints as it actually says that. They stir up the body to go out to evangelize. I personally do not care what the traditional view is, I just care about what the bible says about it, and concerning perfecting the saints, Pastors, and all the rest are in the same list as evangelists for perfecting the saints. But I do see them being used to evangelize the lost as well, and we are all in reality to be used to witness to people. And all of these, pastors, evangelists etc, prepares the body for the work of the ministry, and the context of this, is referring to the 5 fold ministry being given to us, so to perfect the body of Christ, prepare them for the work of the ministry , and they are there to edify us. And other scriptures show us, that the whole body is to edify each other.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 10:32:05 GMT -5
Giller do you see an evangelist as more of a SME who mentors/motivates the church on effective witnessing?
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Post by Giller on Jan 21, 2019 10:39:55 GMT -5
Giller do you see an evangelist as more of a SME who mentors/motivates the church on effective witnessing? I am not sure what the word SME stands for, but ya they stir up the body to evangelize, and I guess you can use the word motivate, but not as a motivational speaker, but through the Spirit if you know what I mean. And yes they are also used to evangelize as Phillip the evangelist was used towards the Eunuch. And I will repeat that scripture again: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: It says for the work of the ministry singular, and not ministries plural, which is Christ's ministry, which we are all to enter in in some form, within our own part.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 21, 2019 10:43:55 GMT -5
I do not really think I did misunderstood, and I did not say there were not used in that capacity, but one big purpose is for actually perfecting the saints as it actually says that. They stir up the body to go out to evangelize. I personally do not care what the traditional view is, I just care about what the bible says about it, and concerning perfecting the saints, Pastors, and all the rest are in the same list as evangelists for perfecting the saints. But I do see them being used to evangelize the lost as well, and we are all in reality to be used to witness to people. And all of these, pastors, evangelists etc, prepares the body for the work of the ministry, and the context of this, is referring to the 5 fold ministry being given to us, so to perfect the body of Christ, prepare them for the work of the ministry , and they are there to edify us. And other scriptures show us, that the whole body is to edify each other. I am just explaining my views. I could be mistaken as well, things may vary a lot.
It seems that we all have things to do inside the church and outside the church.
Others will do more things inside the church (which would mainly involve edifying those who are in), and others will do things more outside of the church (including bringing back the lost).
Blessings!
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jan 21, 2019 10:47:23 GMT -5
A SME is a subject matter expert.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 11:21:17 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for. These gifts as a whole are given to accomplish these things. They work together for that purpose. You downplayed "for the work of the ministry." The primary function of an evangelist is to win the lost, but sadly, most today don't do that. They spend their time trying to stir up the saved congregation, so their real calling is neglected.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2019 11:25:31 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for. No, I believe you have misunderstood what was said there. The body as a whole is for the edifying of the body of Christ.
It is said there also: ...for the work of the ministry...
There are people equipped with seeking the lost sheep, and evangelists are definitely one of the people that goes seeking for lost sheep in the world.
But it is not limited to evangelists, the whole body of Christ each one has their responsibilities of caring and witnessing for the lost (thus increasing members of the body).
"...The harvest truly is great, but the laborers are few; therefore
pray the Lord of the harvest to send out laborers into His harvest." - Luke 10:2 I agree with what you said here. I think this is absolutely right.
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Post by Giller on Jan 21, 2019 11:49:55 GMT -5
Concerning the office of an evangelist, yes they may be used in some fashion towards evangelizing the unsaved, but this is what the bible says: Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: If the bible says that evangelists are given for the perfecting of the saints, then that is what they are for. These gifts as a whole are given to accomplish these things. They work together for that purpose. You downplayed "for the work of the ministry." The primary function of an evangelist is to win the lost, but sadly, most today don't do that. They spend their time trying to stir up the saved congregation, so their real calling is neglected.
I would have to disagree, but anyhow I do believe that evangelists can be, and do get used in the capacity you said, but as the word says they are there to perfect the saints, if it says so, it says so, they preach the gospel. But I do agree with your statement on what Apostles , prophets and pastors (with exception of some of the titles) are called for.
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