Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Feb 10, 2019 9:47:10 GMT -5
one of the reasons Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed was not taking care of the poor. the scripture i provided shows this. everyone wants to say it was just because of homosexuality. this is something the church needs to consider and heed carefully.
i like what you have said a lot. i have been homeless and seen every sunday people going to church all dressed up. going out to eat after. no one even asked me if i was thirsty, or cold, or hungry. not even asking me if i wanted to go to church. i was probably not fit to even sit in their cars. no one even noticed me, but God.
Maybe people aren't getting help because they don't ask for it? We had a guy come into our church who couldn't pay his utility bill, and someone in the church paid it for him. That is because he asked. Nobody took credit for it, but it was taken care of. If nobody noticed you, why didn't you get their attention? Why didn't you walk into their church? I wouldn't have turned a homeless man away had they come into my church. Some of these criticisms seem unfair to me. Now I realize there are churches where you would have been turned away or seen as undesirable. I have no doubt of that, but I feel confident that wouldn't have been true everywhere.
i do not have time to devote to responding properly right now... i will however respond later. |
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 10, 2019 10:37:31 GMT -5
Everyone has brought out some valid points on caring for the poor, based on their particular experience and observations where they live, etc......but I think there's no doubt the church as a whole is falling short of the vision that we should have:
2Co 8:13-15
For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:
But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:
As it is written, He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 10, 2019 11:01:04 GMT -5
There’s no doubt that the majority of churches fail to execute in the area of charity, for one reason or another. I’ve never seen public assistance programs as an excuse for Christian individuals to fail in their duty.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 11:07:28 GMT -5
I can see both sides of the alms thing. The problem isn’t always hard hearts. People can be intimidated to walk up to a stranger and invite them to lunch. At the last church we attended, we made multiple attempts to go to lunch with some of the people, and there was always an excuse. Other times when we have been out with someone and we tried to be a blessing, they argued out of pride. It’s a nice idea to imagine spontaneously inviting a person to lunch, but it rarely works out well. As far as storehouses in churches, I’m sure there are some good pastors out there, but my experience has been overall that most pastors simply don’t have the ability to manage things. They are preachers above all else, and actual ministry leadership is lacking. To make matters worse the pastor usually has a regular job during the week. Deacons/elders are usually the three or four richest men in the church, who have full-time careers and do not make themselves available. All of these people have good intentions, but the system is set up for failure. I’ve seen cliques in churches where they won’t befriend you no matter how many times you ask. Yes, it happens a lot more often in a lot more churches than we’d like to admit. I’ve also seen poor people struggle and refuse help. Inter-personal alms is a difficult endeavor. This is why people would rather donate to a soup kitchen or homeless shelter that’s already established.
The Thanksgiving meal program worked great, and my wife came up with that idea. I need to give credit where credit is due on that. She also got the word out to needy people. But one problem we had with the food pantry idea was that you need people to man it, and our storage area was in the church basement where the kitchen and classroom were. This led to mice coming in and getting into the food and creating a mess. I had to clean that all up and get an exterminator. I learned that it would be better to support the local food bank or something like that than do it myself. It is trial and error. This would have worked much better had I been the full time Pastor and had the ability to keep office hours where people could come in for assistance, but we do what we are able.
As far as going out to eat, many of us did on Sunday after church. I worked a 60 hour job all week, had to prepare my messages, and I was teaching adult Sunday School too, and I didn't feel bad about going out to eat after church. I wasn't exactly rich either. We still had a mortgage back then, and I wasn't making that much money in that particular job. I was paid by the hour. I couldn't have gone up to people in the street and bought them dinner on a regular basis. Still, as small a our church was, I believed in alms, which I still do, and feel this is something that needs to be restored, so we worked to incorporate that into the ministry. I would again if I had a physical church and had the time, but running our own food pantry and clothing ministry would have to be limited unless we had full time ministers. If you are not able to do that, you can choose to give to charities. They help the needy all the time. What is the difference in the local church doing it, and a food pantry down the road, or supporting a homeless shelter?
I will say this, the churches need to know more about the Bible and what it teaches about alms. Nobody teaches on this today, and that is another reason why more in the church don't give to charity. They are taught to tithe, and that is for keeping the lights on and upkeep of the church building, plus salaries if there are any. They aren't taught about alms. It is a long forgotten practice, and like other things, something we need to work on.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Feb 10, 2019 11:10:08 GMT -5
I’ve been a long-term member of churches in multiple states from east coast to west coast to the midwest. I’ve joined churches in big cities and small country towns. I’ve been to poor churches and rich churches. If I counted the number of churches I’ve visited/joined through the years it would easily be over a hundred. Regardless of where I was or what socio-economic group I was in, the same symptoms were always there, just appearing in different ways.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 11:10:54 GMT -5
There’s no doubt that the majority of churches fail to execute in the area of charity, for one reason or another. I’ve never seen public assistance programs as an excuse for Christian individuals to fail in their duty.
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 11:14:53 GMT -5
I’ve been a long-term member of churches in multiple states from east coast to west coast to the midwest. I’ve joined churches in big cities and small country towns. I’ve been to poor churches and rich churches. If I counted the number of churches I’ve visited/joined through the years it would easily be over a hundred. Regardless of where I was or what socio-economic group I was in, the same symptoms were always there, just appearing in different ways.
Often times, that is because we copy what others do. We see how others operate their churches, and do likewise. When we are part of a church, we trust in the Pastor to tell us the truth, and he is often times repeating what he learned in Seminary, and didn't take the time to really learn the Bible. The cure is to go back to the Bible, look at how the churches were run back then, and follow that pattern, rather than the models we have today. What did the church offices look like then? How were the poor provided for at that time? Forget everything we see today and return to the Bible and start over.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 10, 2019 12:22:02 GMT -5
Pastors need to address this, and encourage people to read the Bible and not rely only on what is taught in church.
"Therefore He says:
“Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light." - Ephesians 5:14
It is the basics of the Christian life: Loving others.
"But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need,
and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" - 1 John 3:17
But the person will say: I am poor already, how will I help?!
If you are poor and still are eating and drinking then you can help, not with huge amounts, but if you really want you help you can do something (read more here).
Do your part, do what is within your reach. Make a difference, help the poor, honor God.
"For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying,
‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’" - Deuteronomy 15:11
Remove things you do not need from your life, that service you have subscribed and pay each month but never use...
...quit that and use that money to do something good. God will be well pleased.
"For the Lord your God will bless you just as He promised you;
you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow..." - Deuteronomy 15:6
"But this I say:
He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly,
and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully." - 2 Corinthians 9:6
"...let each one give as he purposes in his heart,
not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7
Blessings in Jesus' name! |
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 12:46:46 GMT -5
Pastors need to address this, and encourage people to read the Bible and not rely only on what is taught in church.
"Therefore He says:
“Awake, you who sleep,
Arise from the dead,
And Christ will give you light." - Ephesians 5:14
It is the basics of the Christian life: Loving others.
"But whoever has this world's goods, and sees his brother in need,
and shuts up his heart from him, how does the love of God abide in him?" - 1 John 3:17
But the person will say: I am poor already, how will I help?!
If you are poor and still are eating and drinking then you can help, not with huge amounts, but if you really want you help you can do something (read more here).
Do your part, do what is within your reach. Make a difference, help the poor, honor God.
"For the poor will never cease from the land; therefore I command you, saying,
‘You shall open your hand wide to your brother, to your poor and your needy, in your land.’" - Deuteronomy 15:11
Remove things you do not need from your life, that service you have subscribed and pay each month but never use...
...quit that and use that money to do something good. God will be well pleased.
"For the Lord your God will bless you just as He promised you;
you shall lend to many nations, but you shall not borrow..." - Deuteronomy 15:6
"But this I say:
He who sows sparingly will also reap sparingly,
and he who sows bountifully will also reap bountifully." - 2 Corinthians 9:6
"...let each one give as he purposes in his heart,
not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver." - 2 Corinthians 9:7
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by 2fw8212a on Feb 10, 2019 12:57:30 GMT -5
Every church should have some kind of program in place to help those in need, but as crazy as it may seem to you and others, everyone doesn't know the Bible and what Jesus taught. There are Pastors with little Bible knowledge. Some denominations even send sermon outlines for their Pastors to preach from. The starting place is knowing the Bible and using it as your foundation.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
All Pastors must be gifted. This is a must.
And as being gifted, they are to have autority and liberty to preach whatever the Holy Spirit leads them to preach.
Different churches in different places, with different people will have different needs.
The leading of the Holy Spirit is essential for a Pastor.
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me,
and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
This is how it (apparently) works in the church I go. The Pastor has liberty to preach the message he finds useful at that time.
Blessings! |
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Post by John on Feb 10, 2019 13:05:06 GMT -5
Every church should have some kind of program in place to help those in need, but as crazy as it may seem to you and others, everyone doesn't know the Bible and what Jesus taught. There are Pastors with little Bible knowledge. Some denominations even send sermon outlines for their Pastors to preach from. The starting place is knowing the Bible and using it as your foundation.
"Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." - 2 Corinthians 3:17
All Pastors must be gifted. This is a must.
And as being gifted, they are to have autority and liberty to preach whatever the Holy Spirit leads them to preach.
Different churches in different places, with different people will have different needs.
The leading of the Holy Spirit is essential for a Pastor.
"I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me,
and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing." - John 15:5
This is how it (apparently) works in the church I go. The Pastor has liberty to preach the message he finds useful at that time.
Blessings!They tried that in the denomination I was part of, but it didn't go over well. I agree with you that different churches have different needs.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 10, 2019 17:35:12 GMT -5
I been hollering for years that man is false . WEEP and HOWL , WEEP AND HOWL all who followed this man , you followed a false one and now its only
getting worse . WEEP and Howl.
Between ROME and the JEW kabbala , THE WHOLE WORLD is getting set up for the total deception.
Rabbi Haggi, Whatever ever , I don't call no man rabbi, and what a pharce this all is .
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Feb 10, 2019 19:31:25 GMT -5
one of the reasons Sodom and Gomorrah was destroyed was not taking care of the poor. the scripture i provided shows this. everyone wants to say it was just because of homosexuality. this is something the church needs to consider and heed carefully.
i like what you have said a lot. i have been homeless and seen every sunday people going to church all dressed up. going out to eat after. no one even asked me if i was thirsty, or cold, or hungry. not even asking me if i wanted to go to church. i was probably not fit to even sit in their cars. no one even noticed me, but God.
Maybe people aren't getting help because they don't ask for it? We had a guy come into our church who couldn't pay his utility bill, and someone in the church paid it for him. That is because he asked. Nobody took credit for it, but it was taken care of. If nobody noticed you, why didn't you get their attention? Why didn't you walk into their church? I wouldn't have turned a homeless man away had they come into my church. Some of these criticisms seem unfair to me. Now I realize there are churches where you would have been turned away or seen as undesirable. I have no doubt of that, but I feel confident that wouldn't have been true everywhere.
i have walked into churches. it was well known i was living in the woods in a tent, if i had one. or squatting in a condemned house. even cops knew, and i was homeless for a couple years as a minor. even when i told the cops they would look at each other, put me in the car and act like they heard nothing. word gets around in a small town. but all i ever got was thats horrible. i never panhandled, not even once. a good bit of people you see panhandling make more than you do Butero. they can afford to sleep in motels. and they dont care, its free money. i did try to get peoples attention... perhaps it was God bringing me to that low point in life where i would call out to Him. I will say that is a possibility.
all the churches in a community need to collaborate and build one storehouse/soupkitchen for the poor. and a thrift shop for clothes. donations feed it all. and not just money. toilet paper, everything. get involved in local radio stations for advertisement. even take old furniture for donations. there needs to be a building for homeless people to stay at if rules are followed. they help out and there can even be paid positions. volunteers. and even people doing community service ordered by court. sell donations cheap but also give out vouchers for food and clothes. each church should have one person on a board. lunch and dinner should be served daily. people who are more trustworthy that need lodging long term can be used to oversee certain tasks such as meals prepared served etc. if possible there needs to be counseling for people who need it. there needs to be prayer before meals. there needs to be bible studies and someone who can serve as a chaplin or preacher.
this kind of place is where you will find those who are downtrodden, problems, broken, etc. the churches job... ekklesia... not a building is not just to go to a building and hope folks show up so they can preach to them. people want to say its not about being fed going to church... what can you do for your church?
does God change? of course not, and yes that was a loaded question. we know God is the same yesterday today and forever. you know how i always speak on Deuteronomy round about chapter 30 concerning free will? well when i labored in the storehouse God showed me things concerning that passage... including...
Deu 28:8 The LORD shall command the blessing upon thee in thy storehouses, and in all that thou settest thine hand unto; and he shall bless thee in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deu 28:9 The LORD shall establish thee an holy people unto himself, as he hath sworn unto thee, if thou shalt keep the commandments of the LORD thy God, and walk in his ways.
Deu 28:10 And all people of the earth shall see that thou art called by the name of the LORD; and they shall be afraid of thee.
Deu 28:11 And the LORD shall make thee plenteous in goods, in the fruit of thy body, and in the fruit of thy cattle, and in the fruit of thy ground, in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers to give thee.
Deu 28:12 The LORD shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
look that word up concerning treasure in verse 12...H214
אוֹצָר
'ôtsâr
o-tsaw'
From H686; a depository: - armory, cellar, garner, store(-house), treasure (-house) (-y).
Total KJV occurrences: 79
Luk 6:38 Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.
Pro 19:17 He that hath pity upon the poor lendeth unto the LORD; and that which he hath given will he pay him again.
Ecc 11:1 Cast thy bread upon the waters: for thou shalt find it after many days.
Ecc 11:2 Give a portion to seven, and also to eight; for thou knowest not what evil shall be upon the earth.
Ecc 11:3 If the clouds be full of rain, they empty themselves upon the earth: and if the tree fall toward the south, or toward the north, in the place where the tree falleth, there it shall be.
Ecc 11:4 He that observeth the wind shall not sow; and he that regardeth the clouds shall not reap.
Ecc 11:5 As thou knowest not what is the way of the spirit, nor how the bones do grow in the womb of her that is with child: even so thou knowest not the works of God who maketh all.
Ecc 11:6 In the morning sow thy seed, and in the evening withhold not thine hand: for thou knowest not whether shall prosper, either this or that, or whether they both shall be alike good.
every single day when you walk out your front door... you are entering the mission field. and in the verse from Deuteronomy God is saying if we obey He will command we be blessed in the storehouse... and even later that God will open His storehouse... in Job it talks about storehouses of snow and hail... but in Deuteronomy God promises the rain. the former rain was for seeds to sprout... the latter rain was to "poof" up the grains they grew. this passage implies there is a storehouse of man. that it exists. to obey a storehouse must exist, but they are few. but as i said previously, many say... we just are not set up for that. i have spoken of God speaking thru my mouth scripture, the gospel and then prayer and hundreds got saved. this was all one person at a time. a good bit of this was at the storehouse i worked in... and yet, the head guy there told me the same thing but about preaching the word or having a chapel... we are not set up for that. I am so tired of hearing those words... i can only imagine how God feels... because those words were to Him as well. whether they realize it or not.
there is much the church could be doing today and is not. but who am i? i am just a no body who used to eat out of dumpsters. no one wants to listen to me. everyone else has their degrees and went to seminary. i dont come with a letter. i just speak whats on my heart because of God. and i hear... we arent set up for that.... but God sent me... God used me there. but maybe preachers cant be had there because there is no tithe for them? I prayed God, i want my reward on the other side of eternity... not one dime, and He sent me there. the church is failing in lots of aspects today. and its because people want to go their own way.
I am not trying to speak on whats fair, but whats the right thing to do as the church. the laborers are few.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Feb 10, 2019 19:47:05 GMT -5
and i want to clarify one thing... i am not preaching prosperity doctrine. but God showed me when i was in the storehouse it is very important to Him and if we obey and are blessed in the storehouse... God will open up His storehouse to us... NOT for us to put in our pockets... but for us to do His work. I cant tell you how many times i needed potatoes to make a stew for the people to eat. no potatoes. 15 minutes before my shift started... there was potatoes. one time the whole entire kitchen countertops were covered in potatoes. no space to work even. a farmer had more than he could sell.
I have seen it over and over and i tell you... you cant out give God.
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Feb 10, 2019 19:49:51 GMT -5
There’s no doubt that the majority of churches fail to execute in the area of charity, for one reason or another. I’ve never seen public assistance programs as an excuse for Christian individuals to fail in their duty. todays sermon was on Corinthians 13. |
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