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Post by frienduff on Jan 8, 2020 14:07:19 GMT -5
Ps , cessationalism is false . never heed any such belief . But be on guard , we have many all over nar , charasmetic , prosperity and so forth , and they are false . The gifts are real , but our rejoicing should simply be that our names are wrote above . GOD will give to each member whatever gift HE does so give . Never make a ministery out of the gifts . MAKE a ministry On the WORDS of our LORD , ON HIM .
the rest will come and do when they are needed . Even the SPIRIT of PROPHECY ITSELF , IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST . MAKE HIS TESTIMONY and ALL that HE TUAGHT the entire focus . All else will come as needed . I have seen some gifts at work and by grace I myself have received a gift . But by grace alone , it was never to be seen of men , any time I was given a word of knowledge or whatever IT was always for the sake of the one I was speaking too , AND never did it honor me but rather GOD ALONE . For after the gift was used , the entire speech was JESUS FOCUSED and pure sound doctrine . GOD giveth , and HE KNOWS how to give . ITS not like I can turn something on and off , NOPE , it just comes when its needed . ITS NOT like a spirit of divination . A spirit of divination will always exalt the one under it the gifts that come from GOD will always build up the church and aide in evangelizing and exalt GOD ALONE . Let me explain it a bit better . WHENI was going to churches and visiting , I was never wooed and awed about the gifts , I SIMPLY HUNGERED FOR BIBLE TRUTH . YET the gifts are real . Most either teach cessationalism , or they make a minstiry out of the gifts . LET US SIMPLY EXPOUND on bible doctrine and the gifts will be given as they are needed .
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jan 8, 2020 15:57:18 GMT -5
Ps , cessationalism is false . never heed any such belief . But be on guard , we have many all over nar , charasmetic , prosperity and so forth , and they are false . The gifts are real , but our rejoicing should simply be that our names are wrote above . GOD will give to each member whatever gift HE does so give . Never make a ministery out of the gifts . MAKE a ministry On the WORDS of our LORD , ON HIM . the rest will come and do when they are needed . Even the SPIRIT of PROPHECY ITSELF , IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST . MAKE HIS TESTIMONY and ALL that HE TUAGHT the entire focus . All else will come as needed . I have seen some gifts at work and by grace I myself have received a gift . But by grace alone , it was never to be seen of men , any time I was given a word of knowledge or whatever IT was always for the sake of the one I was speaking too , AND never did it honor me but rather GOD ALONE . For after the gift was used , the entire speech was JESUS FOCUSED and pure sound doctrine . GOD giveth , and HE KNOWS how to give . ITS not like I can turn something on and off , NOPE , it just comes when its needed . ITS NOT like a spirit of divination . A spirit of divination will always exalt the one under it the gifts that come from GOD will always build up the church and aide in evangelizing and exalt GOD ALONE . Let me explain it a bit better . WHENI was going to churches and visiting , I was never wooed and awed about the gifts , I SIMPLY HUNGERED FOR BIBLE TRUTH . YET the gifts are real . Most either teach cessationalism , or they make a minstiry out of the gifts . LET US SIMPLY EXPOUND on bible doctrine and the gifts will be given as they are needed . It must be about Jesus, and not about self. People using the gifts to make a name for themselves is definitely a problem, and may be another reason God withdraws from some ministers and stops working through them.
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Post by Giller on Jan 9, 2020 10:16:25 GMT -5
Joh 14:12-16 (12) Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. (13) And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. (14) If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. (15) If ye love me, keep my commandments. (16) And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; And it seems of course there is a tye in, in regards to the greater works, with Jesus having to go unto his Father (ascension), and as a result of going to his Father, the comforter would be sent back. And of course it is the Holy Spirit who does these works of miracles, the born again experience and so forth. James , john , Stephen , peter , jude , paul , they all LOVE GOD . But not a one of them had Greater works in the sense that many today see the word greater . JESUS rose folks from the dead , so did some of those apostels JESUS healed , so did those apostels JESUS , HIS MINISTRY was to who . THE lost sheep of israel . But the apostels ministriy was to the entire world , to both jew and greek . A far larger , greater number . Many get caught up like we will do GREATER things , Yet beleivers do the SAME things . ITS Just we have a way larger audience now . its not just jews , ITS ALL that draws breath . I agree it is the same works, because healing is healing. No healing is greater than another healing. But now since Pentecost, the audience is the whole world, so these things can be done in a more vast way, because it is to a bigger audience. One thing I do know is that God does want his things to be manifest, more so than now, and God is good, and I thank God for you Frienduff.
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Post by Giller on Jan 9, 2020 10:50:14 GMT -5
Mar 16:17-18 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
God does want his signs to follow, God does want us to believe, and he directs and leads.
We should desire these things because they are part of Christ's ministry, but it is the Holy Ghost that makes these things manifest and not us.
Let us not be impulsive towards miracles, because many do get impulsive, and do not wait upon the Lord, and thus try to make things happen.
We want the genuine article to happen and not just miracles for the sake of miracles.
So let us desire these things, but also in doing so, let us have a big focus on just simply being sanctified and conformed to his image.
And God will bring us were we need to be, but in the mean time do not try and make things happen, because I believe that many of these so called miracle ministries are based on trying to make things happen, being impatient, and in a big way to glorify self.
See in the so called Christian world, you claim miracles, you get status, and acclaim, we should not seek such status and acclaim.
We worship God for who he is, and not for what he can do.
But yes I want to see all his ministry manifest in my midst.
So not desiring it, is not good either.
And I find this thread has been very edifying, and it has built me up, which we are covering many angles to this issue.
Thank God for all who have posted in this thread.
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Post by Giller on Jan 9, 2020 10:55:52 GMT -5
Oh and let us never forget to always learn how to work as a body, always in a greater way.
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Post by frienduff on Jan 9, 2020 16:10:55 GMT -5
Mar 16:17-18 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. God does want his signs to follow, God does want us to believe, and he directs and leads. We should desire these things because they are part of Christ's ministry, but it is the Holy Ghost that makes these things manifest and not us. Let us not be impulsive towards miracles, because many do get impulsive, and do not wait upon the Lord, and thus try to make things happen. We want the genuine article to happen and not just miracles for the sake of miracles. So let us desire these things, but also in doing so, let us have a big focus on just simply being sanctified and conformed to his image. And God will bring us were we need to be, but in the mean time do not try and make things happen, because I believe that many of these so called miracle ministries are based on trying to make things happen, being impatient, and in a big way to glorify self. See in the so called Christian world, you claim miracles, you get status, and acclaim, we should not seek such status and acclaim. We worship God for who he is, and not for what he can do. But yes I want to see all his ministry manifest in my midst. So not desiring it, is not good either. And I find this thread has been very edifying, and it has built me up, which we are covering many angles to this issue. Thank God for all who have posted in this thread. Giller , rejoice in the Lord . When we examine the whole of the gosples , and of the letters from the apostels , in your heart and mind , What do you see the main focus on . Be encouraged more than ever by the question . In all four gosples , and in every letter wrote by the or an apostel . What did the main focus seem to be on.
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Post by John on Jan 9, 2020 17:39:25 GMT -5
Ps , cessationalism is false . never heed any such belief . But be on guard , we have many all over nar , charasmetic , prosperity and so forth , and they are false . The gifts are real , but our rejoicing should simply be that our names are wrote above . GOD will give to each member whatever gift HE does so give . Never make a ministery out of the gifts . MAKE a ministry On the WORDS of our LORD , ON HIM . the rest will come and do when they are needed . Even the SPIRIT of PROPHECY ITSELF , IS THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST . MAKE HIS TESTIMONY and ALL that HE TUAGHT the entire focus . All else will come as needed . I have seen some gifts at work and by grace I myself have received a gift . But by grace alone , it was never to be seen of men , any time I was given a word of knowledge or whatever IT was always for the sake of the one I was speaking too , AND never did it honor me but rather GOD ALONE . For after the gift was used , the entire speech was JESUS FOCUSED and pure sound doctrine . GOD giveth , and HE KNOWS how to give . ITS not like I can turn something on and off , NOPE , it just comes when its needed . ITS NOT like a spirit of divination . A spirit of divination will always exalt the one under it the gifts that come from GOD will always build up the church and aide in evangelizing and exalt GOD ALONE . Let me explain it a bit better . WHENI was going to churches and visiting , I was never wooed and awed about the gifts , I SIMPLY HUNGERED FOR BIBLE TRUTH . YET the gifts are real . Most either teach cessationalism , or they make a minstiry out of the gifts . LET US SIMPLY EXPOUND on bible doctrine and the gifts will be given as they are needed . It must be about Jesus, and not about self. People using the gifts to make a name for themselves is definitely a problem, and may be another reason God withdraws from some ministers and stops working through them. That is true. God won't share his glory.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jan 10, 2020 8:05:34 GMT -5
It must be about Jesus, and not about self. People using the gifts to make a name for themselves is definitely a problem, and may be another reason God withdraws from some ministers and stops working through them. That is true. God won't share his glory.
It makes sense that among those preachers that still have healing ministries, if they are taking the glory for themselves, the Spirit would depart from them. That is something I had not considered as a reason why miracles are decreasing. It also makes sense that this would lead to ministers like that, whose following depends on miracles, manufacturing fake healings.
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Post by John on Jan 11, 2020 17:39:42 GMT -5
That is true. God won't share his glory.
It makes sense that among those preachers that still have healing ministries, if they are taking the glory for themselves, the Spirit would depart from them. That is something I had not considered as a reason why miracles are decreasing. It also makes sense that this would lead to ministers like that, whose following depends on miracles, manufacturing fake healings. This has been a very good thread. You all have given me a lot of things to consider as to why we are not seeing the power of God manifested as it was with the early church.
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Post by Giller on Jan 12, 2020 2:10:57 GMT -5
Mar 16:17-18 (17) And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; (18) They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover. God does want his signs to follow, God does want us to believe, and he directs and leads. We should desire these things because they are part of Christ's ministry, but it is the Holy Ghost that makes these things manifest and not us. Let us not be impulsive towards miracles, because many do get impulsive, and do not wait upon the Lord, and thus try to make things happen. We want the genuine article to happen and not just miracles for the sake of miracles. So let us desire these things, but also in doing so, let us have a big focus on just simply being sanctified and conformed to his image. And God will bring us were we need to be, but in the mean time do not try and make things happen, because I believe that many of these so called miracle ministries are based on trying to make things happen, being impatient, and in a big way to glorify self. See in the so called Christian world, you claim miracles, you get status, and acclaim, we should not seek such status and acclaim. We worship God for who he is, and not for what he can do. But yes I want to see all his ministry manifest in my midst. So not desiring it, is not good either. And I find this thread has been very edifying, and it has built me up, which we are covering many angles to this issue. Thank God for all who have posted in this thread. Giller , rejoice in the Lord . When we examine the whole of the gosples , and of the letters from the apostels , in your heart and mind , What do you see the main focus on . Be encouraged more than ever by the question . In all four gosples , and in every letter wrote by the or an apostel . What did the main focus seem to be on. I am not 100% sure of the exact answer you are looking for, but what we see in the gospels and the epistles is it points us to the gospel of Jesus Christ. And a big focus is on the cross of Christ. It talks about taking up our cross daily and following him, and once born again, our old man has died, and we have risen in newness of life, and now we have a new man, we have the Holy Spirit, and Christ within, and of course you can say the 3 in 1. It is about living a sanctified life unto God, being set apart, walking in this new life that we now have. It is about walking in holiness, and rejecting the ways of this world and the old man, and our past lives. It is about preaching the gospel to every creature, and through the anointed preaching of the word, and the sharing of the gospel, signs in one form or another will tend to follow, whether it be people being set free of their bondage, people getting saved, people being drawn to the Lord, or it can be healing etc. God is a good God.
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Post by Giller on Jan 12, 2020 3:26:43 GMT -5
Luk 10:17-20 (17) And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. (18) And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (19) Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you. (20) Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
Now why were these 70 rejoicing?
Is it because it is wrong for us to rejoice concerning a work that God has done? Or was it for another reason that Jesus said this unto them?
Well the reason they were rejoicing, is in the fact that the spirits were subject unto them, they were looking at themselves, oh look at me, I have power to cast out devils and so on, they were not rejoicing in the Lord for what he had done, but rather they were focusing on self, in how much power they had over the spirits, which is wrong to do, that is why Jesus said not to rejoice in this, but rather rejoice that your names are written in heaven.
It was being grateful for the fact that their names were even there.
And this next verse shows us that it is not wrong to rejoice in the works of God's hands:
Psa 92:4-5 (4) For thou, LORD, hast made me glad through thy work: I will triumph in the works of thy hands. (5) O LORD, how great are thy works! and thy thoughts are very deep.
The works of God, includes many things, which healings is one of those works.
Act 8:5-8 (5) Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them. (6) And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did. (7) For unclean spirits, crying with loud voice, came out of many that were possessed with them: and many taken with palsies, and that were lame, were healed. (8) And there was great joy in that city.
Act 3:1-9 (1) Now Peter and John went up together into the temple at the hour of prayer, being the ninth hour. (2) And a certain man lame from his mother's womb was carried, whom they laid daily at the gate of the temple which is called Beautiful, to ask alms of them that entered into the temple; (3) Who seeing Peter and John about to go into the temple asked an alms. (4) And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us. (5) And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them. (6) Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. (7) And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ankle bones received strength. (8) And he leaping up stood, and walked, and entered with them into the temple, walking, and leaping, and praising God. (9) And all the people saw him walking and praising God:
Here this man that was lame and got healed, what was he doing? He was walking , and leaping, and praising God.
Who was he praising? He was praising God, and his focus was not on himself, but on God.
Now of course one of the greatest things we can rejoice for, is when God saves a soul, and we have to remember that all the glory belongs to him, rejoice in him, not in self.
And in a great manner, let us just simply rejoice in his salvation.
Look to him, not to self.
Be grateful, and reverence him, have the joy of the Lord, and not joy in the flesh.
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Dezi
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by Dezi on Jan 12, 2020 9:02:00 GMT -5
I have to admit here that I was raised in the Pentecostal church and the emphasis was on signs and wonders. After finding out that people like Benny Hinn and others that I followed was just a fake it has shaken my faith at times. I wonder what is real and what is not all the time. I have suffered so much, more than the human mind should ever have to... and never seeing anyone healed from this quickly has made me wonder about God's involvement with humans... like why do I not see instant healing from such torture of the mind? I know several people who have been begging God for healing of this Benzo related illness and nothing happens. It has weakened my faith in healing. I do love God and seek Him regardless of whether or not I am healed but I just don't understand it? Sorry, if my faith is so weak right now.
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Post by John on Jan 12, 2020 9:13:27 GMT -5
I have to admit here that I was raised in the Pentecostal church and the emphasis was on signs and wonders. After finding out that people like Benny Hinn and others that I followed was just a fake it has shaken my faith at times. I wonder what is real and what is not all the time. I have suffered so much, more than the human mind should ever have to... and never seeing anyone healed from this quickly has made me wonder about God's involvement with humans... like why do I not see instant healing from such torture of the mind? I know several people who have been begging God for healing of this Benzo related illness and nothing happens. It has weakened my faith in healing. I do love God and seek Him regardless of whether or not I am healed but I just don't understand it? Sorry, if my faith is so weak right now. I fully understand what you are saying. This is all I can tell you from personal experience and things I know that are in the Bible. I have at times prayed for healing from something and been almost instantly cured. At other times, I have prayed for long periods of time, and not been healed to this day. I have asked for deliverance from things where it was instantly answered, and at other times, it took years. In each and every case, I still know God was the one doing the healing and delivering.
The Bible shows us instant healings that took place, and instances where Paul spoke of leaving one brother at a place who was sick, almost unto death, and he was thanking God that he got better, and we see the Bible recommending that one person use a little wine for his stomach's sake and his oft times infirmities. God clearly has the power to do anything and instantly, but doesn't always act immediately. How come? I have found this thread beneficial, because people are exploring possible reasons. Some I had not considered.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 12, 2020 12:47:43 GMT -5
...why do I not see instant healing from such torture of the mind? “Because of your unbelief; for assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith as a mustard seed,
you will say to this mountain,
‘Move from here to there,’ and it will move; and nothing will be impossible for you.” - Matthew 17:20
Can you believe?
“If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.” - Mark 9:23
“Jesus said to her,
“Did I not say to you that if you would believe you would see the glory of God?”” - John 11:40
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Post by Giller on Jan 14, 2020 2:22:11 GMT -5
There is no doubt that we need to believe, and faith as a mustard seed can remove mountains, and of course also the bible talks about a certain place were Jesus could not do mighty works because of their unbelief.
So on one hand the bible talks about believers believing for this and for that, but also it mentions for individual people to believe as well, in some manner, for Jesus even said this:
Mat 9:28-30 (28) And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord. (29) Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you. (30) And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.
Yes Jesus did what he did in total faith, but also he required these men (blind men (plural)) to believe, for he said, according to your faith be it unto you.
And another thing to consider as well is how Jesus prepared his disciples, and built them up with the word of God.
My Scottish pastor would always say it is preparation before blessing.
Mat 10:5-8 (5) These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: (6) But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (7) And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. (8) Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
He sent all 12 of them, and to me I see some type of body ministry here, and he sent them forth first to preach, and to do things such as healing the sick and so forth.
Yes God does prepare us as individuals, but I believe that he wants also to prepare us as a body, that our churches become places were people can be set free, can get saved, and healed and so forth.
As my pastor would say, it is to be a spiritual hospital.
And in saying this, that does not mean that our faith does not have to be tried at times , for our faith does have to be tried, but in your faith being tried, just continue to stand on his word, and never give up.
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