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Post by justinadams on Aug 29, 2019 12:31:55 GMT -5
Of course there is a symbiotic relationship between free will and foreknowledge. We have discussed that before. And I know the plan was for Jesus to be crucified from the foundation of the world. However I cannot find this notion of God knowing He would one day beget a son by Mary. That’s a distinctly Catholic doctrine – this idea that Mary is the actual, literal mother of the Son of God. That Father God somehow needed a woman to beget a Son to Himself. This is why Catholics worship Mary. I understand the question, but I think it was Yeshua's knowledge of this decision thus; they decided this BEFORE they created humankind as IMAGERS of the Godhead. It was the plan. Later we are told to IMITATE Christ. It is their idea and always was. It was very, very clever and kept from most of humanity until after the Crucifixion. The apostle says, "had they but known, they never would have killed the King of Glory". A vast and many layered plan that worked exactly as planned. Thanks be to God. Yeshua had no doubt EVER of His origin and who He was and what He was going to do. (someone said recently, I could slap myself - but that would hurt). He knew it would entail extreme suffering, but his Love for All of His Creation was Greater than any pain - and Gethsemane tells us He knew about the pain... He said to Caiaphas, "henceforth you will see me riding in the Clouds of Glory" - a distinctive reference to ancient understandings that Deity Always Rode on the clouds. Caiaphas had a fit...
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Post by frienduff on Aug 29, 2019 12:39:41 GMT -5
Ahhh... see this is where I’ve always had a different understanding. It seems to me that Jesus was the begotten Son of the Father since eternity. Begotten did not start with Mary. Begotten implies coming about through conception. Jesus as God always existed. He has no beginning. He was always the Son of God, but Jesus as God-man was begotten.
Exactly . If I take a cup of water from the ocean . Is it not still the same thing . GOD is HIS WORD and HIS WORD IS HE . Hands up and let all rejoice n the LORD . Its still the identical essence of the ocean . same water , same everything . GOD is HIS ESSENCE and HIS ESSENCE IS HE . Did you know , that I don't listen to ONE LICK of what comes from these scholars . NOT A LICK . No , not a even a dot . WE GOT a GOOD BIBLE , THE KJV and WE HAVE THE SPIRIT . I SURE TRUST the SPIRIT can DISCERN WHAT IT ALONE INSPIRED . If it scares folks when I say I DECLARE OURIGHT war against etc . DONT LET IT . I DECLARE OUTRIGHT WAR against all these false scholars , THEY CAN KEEP EVERY OUNCE of their WISDOM SO CALLED . I bodly refuse to sit under any of them . I know I declare war a lot . BUT ITS SPIRTUAL WARFARE . AND THEY THE ONES GONNA GET EXPOSED . ME , let me simply be as a little child . I HAVE CHRIST , THUS I HAVE THE SPIRIT . THEY can keep their greek , they can keep their words and strifes over words . I GOT ALL I NEED . JESUS . AND they can accuse me of being pride filled , BUT LOOK AT WHO I AM TRUSTING IN . It aint my own intellect and it aint theirs either . ITS THE LORD . SO , are you ready , I DECLARE ALL OUT WAR against the false men and women of belial , BETTER THEY REPENT and cease those mindsets , Or at their end , GOD IS THE JUDGE . And I promise HE AINT WELL PLEASED with what is going on .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 29, 2019 12:45:07 GMT -5
And I am seeing things , I am not liking at all . Something we had better discuss in private . PS , I aint changing so take that message to whoever . I am seeing things on another site , AND I AM NOT LIKING IT man . I AM NOT LIKING IT . Folks it would not be the FIRST time brethren have crept in unawares . But I am telling us all , If certain leaders from another site DONT return to that original pattern , BUT stay the course they are on , THEY WILL DESTROY their entire site . Now go along , go on , run and tell folks . I DO NOT LIKE what I am seeing yall . I am worried . Not fearful for me , I HAVE MY PEACE , but a connection HAS BEEN MADE . AND ITS A BAD ONE FOLKS . ITS A BAD ONE .
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 29, 2019 12:45:44 GMT -5
Of course God knew about the virgin birth. Of course Father God is all knowing of these things. I never meant to imply He somehow didn’t know Jesus would be born of Mary. I just don’t think that Jesus as the begotten son began on that day.
So what do we make of Jesus in the Old Testament? Jesus at the time of creation? He was a person who was part of the Godhead but not actually the Father’s son, and the plan was for Him to become God’s son? God referred to Jesus as His Son because He predestined Him to be His Son?
My view is that Jesus, as a person in the Godhead, was actually, literally, a real reality as the begotten Son of God going back all eternity. Not a promise or a plan or something foreknown, but literally the begotten Son from day one. His human appearance through Mary was merely a manifestation of who He had always been, not the beginning of his birth as the Son. John you are saying that God needed a woman to give Himself a child.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 29, 2019 12:46:32 GMT -5
Throw a stone into a pitfull of barking dogs and how do you know which one has been hit .
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 29, 2019 12:52:09 GMT -5
Anyway this really doesn’t need to be argued over. It’s a small technicality. I don’t feel like discussing it any further.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 29, 2019 12:52:19 GMT -5
We being watched and observed . But it aint like we don't know it . Anyway , HANDS UP and REJOICE IN THE LORD and in the LORD let all rejoice . A connection through jewish things , OH ITS BEEN MADE . ITS BEEN MADE . I tried to warn folks to leave the so called well educated camps of men . ONLY some wont heed it . WELL their demise is on them . I DID what I could . OH I wanted to remind us all of something too . HAPPY BIRTHDAY my dear loved sister . Yep , I am sure a few more reminders will be sounded out today . BUT , its just because we LOVE OUR DEAR SISTER .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 29, 2019 12:53:27 GMT -5
Anyway this really doesn’t need to be argued over. It’s a small technicality. I don’t feel like discussing it any further. MY indian sister , HAS WELL SAID . HAPPY BIRTHDAY dear SISTER .
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 29, 2019 12:58:36 GMT -5
John can feel free to respond if he wishes. I am not trying to shut him up or get the last word. He can answer my charge if you would like to. But then I will let him have the last word and MoveOn. These little details are not worth agonizing over.
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Post by John on Aug 29, 2019 13:10:03 GMT -5
Of course God knew about the virgin birth. Of course Father God is all knowing of these things. I never meant to imply He somehow didn’t know Jesus would be born of Mary. I just don’t think that Jesus as the begotten son began on that day. So what do we make of Jesus in the Old Testament? Jesus at the time of creation? He was a person who was part of the Godhead but not actually the Father’s son, and the plan was for Him to become God’s son? God referred to Jesus as His Son because He predestined Him to be His Son? My view is that Jesus, as a person in the Godhead, was actually, literally, a real reality as the begotten Son of God going back all eternity. Not a promise or a plan or something foreknown, but literally the begotten Son from day one. His human appearance through Mary was merely a manifestation of who He had always been, not the beginning of his birth as the Son. John you are saying that God needed a woman to give Himself a child. No matter how you slice it, God did use a woman to give birth to the Christ child. What is the difference? And no, God didn't have to have a woman. He could have formed Jesus from the dust if He had wanted to or chosen a different way. He can do anything He wants to.
Actually, you do not have what I said exactly right. I said Jesus was always the Son of God. I said he was called the "only begotten Son of God" because he was born of a woman. Do you have Old Testament scripture where Jesus is ever referred to as the "only begotten" Son of God from the beginning? I can't think of any. The only time I ever recall it being worded that way was in the New Testament.
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Post by John on Aug 29, 2019 13:12:41 GMT -5
John can feel free to respond if he wishes. I am not trying to shut him up or get the last word. He can answer my charge if you would like to. But then I will let him have the last word and MoveOn. These little details are not worth agonizing over. I didn't see it as a charge, nor am I upset at all over this. I am not even looking at this as an argument. This is a very minor difference to me. I would not be upset with you over something like this if we never see eye to eye. The real question is just over why Jesus is called the only begotten Son of God. Surely two people can disagree over that without it being a serious divide. Don't worry about it.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Aug 29, 2019 13:29:33 GMT -5
There are many different ways to approach this in the Bible. Many verses we could parse. We could be at this all day. But it is a deep and winding rabbit trail.
We agree on the following:
1) Jesus eternally existed as a real person in the Godhead
2) He was present at the time of creation for the pre-planned purpose of salvation
3) He was miraculously conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin to replace the lineage of Adam
4) He established a new covenant and a new pathway to adoption for humans who are born again into new spiritual life
The only thing we disagree over are the logistical details, and those would take hours if not days to unpack. I say we leave it here.
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Post by John on Aug 29, 2019 13:36:39 GMT -5
There are many different ways to approach this in the Bible. Many verses we could parse. We could be at this all day. But it is a deep and winding rabbit trail. We agree on the following: 1) Jesus eternally existed as a real person in the Godhead 2) He was present at the time of creation for the pre-planned purpose of salvation 3) He was miraculously conceived through the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin to replace the lineage of Adam 4) He established a new covenant and a new pathway to adoption for humans who are born again into new spiritual life The only thing we disagree over are the logistical details, and those would take hours if not days to unpack. I say we leave it here. I agree, as we agree on all those major points. If sometime you want to spends days talking about it, that is okay, but to me, so long as we both know Jesus is God, believe in the Holy Trinity, and that Jesus has been the Son of God from the start, everything is good. Enjoy your birthday. You only get one 39Th Birthday.
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Post by John on Aug 29, 2019 13:56:13 GMT -5
And I am seeing things , I am not liking at all . Something we had better discuss in private . PS , I aint changing so take that message to whoever . I am seeing things on another site , AND I AM NOT LIKING IT man . I AM NOT LIKING IT . Folks it would not be the FIRST time brethren have crept in unawares . But I am telling us all , If certain leaders from another site DONT return to that original pattern , BUT stay the course they are on , THEY WILL DESTROY their entire site . Now go along , go on , run and tell folks . I DO NOT LIKE what I am seeing yall . I am worried . Not fearful for me , I HAVE MY PEACE , but a connection HAS BEEN MADE . AND ITS A BAD ONE FOLKS . ITS A BAD ONE . Let me know what you learned, but don't stress over it. Of course we are being watched. Ever since I shook the dust off my shoes as a testimony against their leadership, I have much more peace. It is good to be out of there. I feel sorry for the poor souls that thought it was a non-denominational message board and didn't know it was a trap to lead them into their heretical teachings. Once I realized the corruption goes all the way to the top, I realized how futile our efforts are. I like to hope I saved one person from suicide when they told her she would be in the arms of Jesus if she went through with it, and one other person came out of the osas heresy. I think they caused that by admitting what they really believe. Saving one person is worth it all, but that was over 15 years, and I don't know if that depressed woman listened to my warning.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Aug 29, 2019 18:22:10 GMT -5
and what do these scholars as well as yourself have to say about these scriptures in relation to "the only begotten":
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Eph 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
it seems to me only begotten is an excellent fit when you consider that we are made sons by adoption per scripture and also this verse: Mat 1:18 Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
i know of no other man who is said be of The Holy Ghost. there is usually "the will of man" or "the will of the flesh" as John 1:13 says.
I am asking you this because there are a good many right now preaching Jesus is not the only Begotten, and these teachers are normally also preaching prosperity and faith doctrines. I have not seen your words to promote that, but there is a big push in teachings that Jesus isnt the only begotten and i am wondering where you are coming from on this?
MONOGENESE means UNIQUE - ONE OF A KIND. where are you getting this from. i looked it up in John 3:16 in strongs and this is not the definition i read.
3:16 ForG1063 GodG2316 soG3779 lovedG25 theG3588 world,G2889 thatG5620 he gaveG1325 hisG848 only begottenG3439 Son,G5207 thatG2443 whosoeverG3956 believethG4100 inG1519 himG846 should notG3361 perish,G622 butG235 haveG2192 everlastingG166 life.G2222
G3439 μονογενής monogenēs mon-og-en-ace From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child). Total KJV occurrences: 9
G3441 μόνος monos mon'-os Probably from G3306; remaining, that is, sole or single; by implication mere: - alone, only, by themselves. Total KJV occurrences: 45
G1096 γίνομαι ginomai ghin'-om-ahee A prolonged and middle form of a primary verb; to cause to be (“gen” -erate), that is, (reflexively) to become (come into being), used with great latitude (literally, figuratively, intensively, etc.): - arise be assembled, be (come, -fall, -have self), be brought (to pass), (be) come (to pass), continue, be divided, be done, draw, be ended, fall, be finished, follow, be found, be fulfilled, + God forbid, grow, happen, have, be kept, be made, be married, be ordained to be, partake, pass, be performed, be published, require, seem, be showed, X soon as it was, sound, be taken, be turned, use, wax, will, would, be wrought. Total KJV occurrences: 672
genēs, the second half of monogenēs, is where we get words like geneology, and genes like our dna, or "gene pool" and because this word is so specific, and after delving into this in study and being unable to replicate your definition... i am left scratching my head. where did you get this definition?
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