|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 9:05:29 GMT -5
If it was the wrong way, he wouldn't return in the future and rule and reign for 1000 years with a rod of iron, because it would be wrong, but He is going to do it. It was just about timing.
Jesus isn't going to club people over the head with a metal stick to force them to obey Him.....and rule the way kings of the earth rule. NO.....we need to get our thoughts higher. His ways are not man's ways and NEVER WILL BE. Rod of iron is talking about the scepter of His rule/kingship....how it will be strong and unbending....mighty in the SPIRIT, not in the way of the flesh and politics. Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I completely disagree on this. Jesus will absolutely demand obedience during that time. Even today we see examples like Ananias and Sapphira as well as Herod. The threat remains that disobedience has consequences.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 9:22:51 GMT -5
I can tell you from personal experience on this topic (and I can’t be the only one who did this), you start out reading the Bible with an open mind, the message of holiness and fear of the Lord — in the midst of relationship — is so clear that you can’t imagine anyone not seeing it. So you go around talking about a relationship with Jesus, and suddenly these battle-hardened holiness people jump on you for sounding like a liberal. I never even heard of OSAS until I was an adult. Many other popular theories I didn’t know until I got the internet. Amen, it's a relationship based on love and respect.....like a marriage relationship....as Letters has reminded us, faith working through love, one of my favourite verses....it's a more excellent way. I don't know about others but that makes my heart open up to the Lord like a flower opening to the sun. Much more life-giving and uplifting than a bridegroom DEMANDING love from His bride....yuck. I so HATE to hear Jesus being mischaracterized like that. When people want to jump down your throat and make wrong assumptions because you are using perfectly sound bible terminology that others happen to use in false ways, it's because they have their thoughts too focused on the false and can't even hear the true any more....sadly. It just becomes another form of error in itself. So just something to be aware of and examine ourselves.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 9:30:27 GMT -5
Jesus tells us that we are His friends if we do whatsoever He commands us to do. He demands obedience, or we are facing a fate like Ananias, loss of rewards or even hell. That is a fact. The scriptures and examples are in the New Testament. The reason we don't have a proper fear of God is because people water down the message. They make out like obedience is optional, and it is not.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
The system
Sept 25, 2019 9:30:44 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 9:30:44 GMT -5
I’m confused. If the millennial reign will bring a time when Satan is vanquished and sin no longer rules this world, then why would obedience under pain of punishment still be the policy? If sin has been vanquished, none of us there will continue struggling with sin. But if not, if the millennial reign will be just as tiresome and sinful as this age, then what’s the purpose?
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 9:35:01 GMT -5
I’m confused. If the millennial reign will bring a time when Satan is vanquished and sin no longer rules this world, then why would obedience under pain of punishment still be the policy? If sin has been vanquished, none of us there will continue struggling in sin. But if not, if the millennial reign will be just as tiresome and sinful as this age, then what’s the purpose? If you sin during the millennial reign, it will be an act of rebellion. Where does the Bible say nobody can sin without a tempter? As far as today's church goes, we will not be subject to sin because we will have been glorified. It is those with natural bodies that can sin.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 9:37:56 GMT -5
We are the ones who will rule and reign with Christ at that time.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 9:39:52 GMT -5
Will the saints ever reach a time when sin is passed away and they are free from condemnation hanging over their head any moment? Or will we go to heaven in our glorified bodies still afraid of losing our salvation?
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 9:46:21 GMT -5
Will the saints ever reach a time when sin is passed away and they are free from condemnation hanging over their head any moment? Or will we go to heaven in our glorified bodies still afraid of losing our salvation? Those who are ready to meet the Lord when he returns will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. They won't sin. It is those who survive the tribulation and continue on in natural bodies that will be subject to sin, and many will rebel with Satan at the very end of the thousand years. Those with glorified bodies will rule over them.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 9:49:19 GMT -5
Jesus isn't going to club people over the head with a metal stick to force them to obey Him.....and rule the way kings of the earth rule. NO.....we need to get our thoughts higher. His ways are not man's ways and NEVER WILL BE. Rod of iron is talking about the scepter of His rule/kingship....how it will be strong and unbending....mighty in the SPIRIT, not in the way of the flesh and politics. Isa 49:2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me; Rev 1:16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength. Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. Rev 19:21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh. I completely disagree on this. Jesus will absolutely demand obedience during that time. Even today we see examples like Ananias and Sapphira as well as Herod. The threat remains that disobedience has consequences.
It's well known that the Jews were looking for a messiah/king to come and rally up an army to go and kill the Romans to set the nation of Israel free from political and military oppression....THAT is the kind of kingship they wanted to crown Jesus with, because they saw He was amassing a lot of followers....which temptation He FLED from. That's just not the way He rules or will rule in the millennium......He is so much GREATER than that. God created the destroyer to work havoc and mete out punishments and chastisements....the devil and his angels will be locked down under His feet during the millennium so the only punishment Jesus will inflict at that time will be the withdrawal of His presence, the Holy Spirit (rain) should any refuse to worship....and that is punishment indeed. He will rule and reign with the sword of His mouth....SPIRITUAL weapons. Remember His word is so great and mighty it created the sun and planets and vast universe full of stars...it accomplishes that for which He sends it forth! And it won't even be US being ruled and reigned like that, for we will be the ones ruling and reigning with Him, His loving worshipful wife at His side. Anyway we don't need to be concerned about the millennium but the here and now, and we need to have ears to hear what the SPIRIT is saying. His ways are just not man's ways, just not the ways of our flesh and carnal mind.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 9:52:29 GMT -5
Will the saints ever reach a time when sin is passed away and they are free from condemnation hanging over their head any moment? Or will we go to heaven in our glorified bodies still afraid of losing our salvation? Those who are ready to meet the Lord when he returns will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. They won't sin. It is those who survive the tribulation and continue on in natural bodies that will be subject to sin, and many will rebel with Satan at the very end of the thousand years. Those with glorified bodies will rule over them.
Yes I know all that, but it doesn’t answer my question. Are we going to live all of eternity in this precarious condition of fearing to lose our souls? We be in heaven for billions of years trying not to sin? Will God’s wrath be satisfied on this world, or will it carry over for billions of years when this is all gone? Will there ever be a time when all that stuff in the Bible about a loving relationship is true, or is the loving relationship with the bride really just a front for a never ending rule over sinful subjects?
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 10:01:11 GMT -5
It is true that the disciples wanted Jesus to overthrow the Roman government and reign, but the reason He didn't do it was because it was not in God's timing. He is going to overthrow the entire world system in a bloody battle at Armageddon. The saints will be given glorified bodies and will be fighting along side our conquering King. Then we will rule and reign with him over those who remain on the earth in natural bodies. You are right in that we will not be among those being ruled over. You are also right in that we need to be concerned with the here and now. I have no idea where you came up with the idea that Jesus is not going to demand obedience and doesn't today, because the Bible doesn't say that.
Today, we have New Testament examples of God striking a couple dead for fraud and Herod dead for accepting glory that belonged to God. I wonder how many people that die prematurely did so because of sin? Jesus warned one man not to return to sin lest something worse come upon him. Most of the time, sickness comes upon people just because it is in the world, but I believe that many sicknesses and deaths are the result of God striking someone down. I know a man who was a professing Christian that died of a heart attack in the act of fornication. Who is to say that wasn't God's doing?
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 10:02:13 GMT -5
I don’t know why this has to be an either/or choice. Jesus is a lovey-dovey husband who never gets angry, or He’s an angry king smiting the peasants? The Bible describes Him as both. Kings have wives. Men of great power and authority have families. We see this in Esther. Yes Esther hat a healthy fear of King Xerxes, but he loved her tenderly. He was a fearsome king and a loving husband at the same time.
We can’t pretend that half the Bible isn’t true.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 10:04:23 GMT -5
Those who are ready to meet the Lord when he returns will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye. They won't sin. It is those who survive the tribulation and continue on in natural bodies that will be subject to sin, and many will rebel with Satan at the very end of the thousand years. Those with glorified bodies will rule over them.
Yes I know all that, but it doesn’t answer my question. Are we going to live all of eternity in this precarious condition of fearing to lose our souls? We be in heaven for billions of years trying not to sin? Will God’s wrath be satisfied on this world, or will it carry over for billions of years when this is all gone? Will there ever be a time when all that stuff in the Bible about a loving relationship is true, or is the loving relationship with the bride really just a front for a never ending rule over sinful subjects? This would depend in large part on how you view Lucifer's fall. If Lucifer was created perfect like many claim, then you would always be able to rebel because Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels did when there was no tempter and they were in heaven. If you believe as I do that Lucifer was created with hidden iniquity on the inside, and that it was God's plan all along that everything take place as it did, the 2/3 of the angels that remain loyal to God will always remain loyal to God, and the elect will always remain saved for eternity with no chance they will fall away.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 10:05:14 GMT -5
I don’t know why this has to be an either/or choice. Jesus is a lovey-dovey husband who never gets angry, or He’s an angry king smiting the peasants? The Bible describes Him as both. Kings have wives. Men of great power and authority have families. We see this in Esther. Yes Esther hat a healthy fear of King Xerxes, but he loved her tenderly. He was a fearsome king and a loving husband at the same time. We can’t pretend that half the Bible isn’t true. I completely agree with that.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 10:10:17 GMT -5
John you should know by now that I am not against authority… I’m only trying to understand how the full counsel of the Bible is true. He is the Alpha and Omega, the lion and the lamb, the king and the servant. The King of heaven left His estate to take the form of a lowly man and submit even to death. Everything about Jesus is a spiritual mystery. How can a fearsome king rule with iron while also tenderly loving the apple of His eye? Therein lies the riddle. The last thing I want is to make it sound like Jesus has no authority. I just want to understand the mystery.
|
|