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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 10:23:41 GMT -5
John you should know by now that I am not against authority… I’m only trying to understand how the full counsel of the Bible is true. He is the Alpha and Omega, the lion and the lamb, the king and the servant. The King of heaven left His estate to take the form of a lowly man and submit even to death. Everything about Jesus is a spiritual mystery. How can a fearsome king rule with iron while also tenderly loving the apple of His eye? Therein lies the riddle. The last thing I want is to make it sound like Jesus has no authority. I just want to understand the mystery. I know you don't have a problem with authority, but some do. Jesus came to this earth 2000 years ago with a purpose, die on a cross for our sins. He didn't come to set up an earthly Kingdom at that time, but He made it clear that this will occur in the future, but we are not told the times and seasons. We are only given clues.
Here is where it gets complicated. God has a true church in this world, and he has pretend Christians living along side of them, mingling with them. We do not know for sure who is real and who is not, but God does, as He knows the beginning from the ending. When you see someone like Ananias, I don't doubt He was a follower of Jesus along side of the other Christians, and He believed he was saved, but we can see from his actions that he was not really among the elect. If he had been, he never would have died as he did. We are told to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, and we are to also make our calling and election sure. We are to spend our days fearing the Lord, not looking at things like His commands are optional, and there will be no consequences for sin.
Let me see if I can explain what my issue is with this. There are way too many in the church today who have created a way to make authorities of none effect. One of the most common things I have seen is wives who claim that their husbands have no real authority in the home because we are supposed to serve one another, and they are to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Because of that, the husband would never force his wife to do anything she didn't want to do, and if he does, the wife doesn't have to obey because he is not following the Lord, and if he isn't following the leading of the Spirit, she doesn't have to listen to him. The same thing is done across the board. Jesus doesn't force us to do anything. He tells us in a very gentle and loving way what he wants us to do, but doesn't force anything upon us. That is not his way, so if we choose not to obey Him, he is a loving Father or husband or whatever figure and would never do anything to harm us. He only desires we follow him for our own good. Sin has consequences, not of God of course, but because of natural laws. That is what I am standing against, because it is a lie.
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PG4Him
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The system
Sept 25, 2019 10:50:30 GMT -5
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 10:50:30 GMT -5
Well as I’ve said before, you can’t do physics if you haven’t learned arithmetic. People latch on to deep things of Christ and try to explain it through elementary logic. Then the rest of us are punished so that we can’t have a discussion deeper than kindergarten.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 10:57:02 GMT -5
Well as I’ve said before, you can’t do physics if you haven’t learned arithmetic. People latch on to deep things of Christ and try to explain it through elementary logic. Then the rest of us are punished so that we can’t have a discussion deeper than kindergarten. I have been a Christian for 34 years and encountered a lot of different doctrines. People can be very subtle when they bring it, but I recognize it. It can sound totally innocent, but you can read between the lines if you understand various doctrines.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 11:05:02 GMT -5
Well as I’ve said before, you can’t do physics if you haven’t learned arithmetic. People latch on to deep things of Christ and try to explain it through elementary logic. Then the rest of us are punished so that we can’t have a discussion deeper than kindergarten. This is more about a hidden message than deep doctrines. You can cover up bad teaching by sounding real deep, like you have this great spiritual insight, and others won't know what you are saying. I would rather have truth on a kindergarten level than lies that sound really spiritual.
The message of the gospel is not as complicated as some make out, and it is easy to get bored with what you already know. The fact of the matter is, you know far more than the average Christian about the Bible, so what is kindergarten to you is deep to someone else.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 11:13:47 GMT -5
You have a calling to combat false doctrine… I don’t… I’ve never enjoyed deliberating doctrinal theories with dozens of people who have their own agenda. For me it’s enough to read the Bible and try to grow in truth. If other women want to disobey their husbands, the odds are very low of me changing their mind, so I tend to let it be. The words are in the Bible for them to read just as well as I read. Most times when I try to broach the subject, it’s World War III. If they won’t believe that 2+2=4, there’s no point in me trying to show them a geometry equation.
One or two people are willing to listen, so I share when I can. Most times I feel like a highschooler sitting in a kindergarten class. Ah, but they know so much about eschatology. They’ve moved on to the meat of Revelation… bad trees can’t grow good fruit.
This is tiresome to me. I just like to stay in the Bible and let other people do what they want to do.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2019 11:20:13 GMT -5
I’m glad I understand where you’re coming from John. At first I couldn’t tell if you were really rejecting the husband relationship in Scripture. As long as we agree that Jesus is both king and husband, fire away at false doctrine.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 11:22:51 GMT -5
You have a calling to combat false doctrine… I don’t… I’ve never enjoyed deliberating doctrinal theories with dozens of people who have their own agenda. For me it’s enough to read the Bible and try to grow in truth. If other women want to disobey their husbands, the odds are very low of me changing their mind, so I tend to let it be. The words are in the Bible for them to read just as well as I read. Most times when I try to broach the subject, it’s World War III. If they won’t believe that 2+2=4, there’s no point in me trying to show them a geometry equation. One or two people are willing to listen, so I share when I can. Most times I feel like a highschooler sitting in a kindergarten class. Ah, but they know so much about eschatology. They’ve moved on to the meat of Revelation… bad trees can’t grow good fruit. This is tiresome to me. I just like to stay in the Bible and let other people do what they want to do. I understand. We all have our unique callings and interests.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 16:23:45 GMT -5
John you should know by now that I am not against authority… I’m only trying to understand how the full counsel of the Bible is true. He is the Alpha and Omega, the lion and the lamb, the king and the servant. The King of heaven left His estate to take the form of a lowly man and submit even to death. Everything about Jesus is a spiritual mystery. How can a fearsome king rule with iron while also tenderly loving the apple of His eye? Therein lies the riddle. The last thing I want is to make it sound like Jesus has no authority. I just want to understand the mystery. The mystery is just that His authority is spiritual, not fleshly, like the rulers of the world. That's all I'm trying to convey here. Some don't see any difference between the two........but there is.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 16:31:46 GMT -5
John you should know by now that I am not against authority… I’m only trying to understand how the full counsel of the Bible is true. He is the Alpha and Omega, the lion and the lamb, the king and the servant. The King of heaven left His estate to take the form of a lowly man and submit even to death. Everything about Jesus is a spiritual mystery. How can a fearsome king rule with iron while also tenderly loving the apple of His eye? Therein lies the riddle. The last thing I want is to make it sound like Jesus has no authority. I just want to understand the mystery. The mystery is just that His authority is spiritual, not fleshly, like the rulers of the world. That's all I'm trying to convey here. Some don't see any difference between the two........but there is. Can you explain the difference in practical terms?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 16:52:08 GMT -5
Well as I’ve said before, you can’t do physics if you haven’t learned arithmetic. People latch on to deep things of Christ and try to explain it through elementary logic. Then the rest of us are punished so that we can’t have a discussion deeper than kindergarten. I have been a Christian for 34 years and encountered a lot of different doctrines. People can be very subtle when they bring it, but I recognize it. It can sound totally innocent, but you can read between the lines if you understand various doctrines.
Careful of wrong assumptions. Do those scriptures that I brought sound like I believe the authority of Christ is of none effect? Whoa, on the contrary! There are two errors, one is to treat the Lord as if He is not worthy of our respect and obedience........but the other error is to accuse Him of being like a mere man of this world, and that His attitude and His power are like that of flesh. The Pharisees misunderstood Jesus too and so even did His disciples at times. Not saying anyone here is a Pharisee, but the point is they were not hearing/understanding with spiritual ears and this caused them to misunderstand Him and assume wrongly about Him. Anyway, I will leave it at that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 16:53:58 GMT -5
The mystery is just that His authority is spiritual, not fleshly, like the rulers of the world. That's all I'm trying to convey here. Some don't see any difference between the two........but there is. Can you explain the difference in practical terms?
I don't think so brother......it is not something perceived by the carnal mind but with the mind of Christ.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 25, 2019 17:04:10 GMT -5
Will the saints ever reach a time when sin is passed away and they are free from condemnation hanging over their head any moment? Or will we go to heaven in our glorified bodies still afraid of losing our salvation? YES dear sister . AT HIS COMING or at our own death . The battle to endure faithful unto HIM till the end , Even paul knew it . HE knew he was about to die and said , I HAVE KEPT the FAITH , henceforth their is a crown awaits me . As for the thousand years , let men speculate , WE aint there yet , and as JESUS once told his own , IT is not for you to KNOW the times and the seasons which the FATHER has placed In His own time . YE ALL PREACH THE GOSPLE . I have never seen a one thousand year reign taught by men that does not contradict scriptures . THEY DONT KNOW , WE AINT THERE YET . THUS let us focus on the HERE and now DOING ALL to point to JESUS and both warning and exhorting all to continue in the TRUE GOSPLE , the true grace of GOD . Folks just like to theorize . But the truth is , THEY DONT KNOW , we aint there yet . SO theories are theories and honestly I pay them no mind at all . BUT THIS I do pay mind too ..............BE YE FAITHFUL UNTO DEATH and YE shall receive a crown of life .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 25, 2019 17:09:48 GMT -5
Can you explain the difference in practical terms?
I don't think so brother......it is not something perceived by the carnal mind but with the mind of Christ. Sister this answer spooked me , it did . spooked me real bad . Do you want to know why . ITS the way every one who has held onto a belief that is false , answers . ALWAYS ye just have to spiritually understand it . IF you have no answer , then rethink what you think you know . DO it . Because I can explain to folks why I believe and how I believe on any subject that I do believe . You know I love you and you know I don't think YOU ARE FALSE at all . BUT I am telling you I have delt with mega false ones and they answer JUST like you did , in other words they cant , BUT HEY we need to just trust and heed their spiritual knowledge . SISTER , you loved , but be careful . TRY your best to explain this . IF not , leave it be and don't teach it .
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2019 17:17:57 GMT -5
I have been a Christian for 34 years and encountered a lot of different doctrines. People can be very subtle when they bring it, but I recognize it. It can sound totally innocent, but you can read between the lines if you understand various doctrines.
Careful of wrong assumptions. Do those scriptures that I brought sound like I believe the authority of Christ is of none effect? Whoa, on the contrary! There are two errors, one is to treat the Lord as if He is not worthy of our respect and obedience........but the other error is to accuse Him of being like a mere man of this world, and that His attitude and His power are like that of flesh. The Pharisees misunderstood Jesus too and so even did His disciples at times. Not saying anyone here is a Pharisee, but the point is they were not hearing/understanding with spiritual ears and this caused them to misunderstand Him and assume wrongly about Him. Anyway, I will leave it at that. Nothing you said changes anything. You really said nothing. I am saying it is being like the Pharisees to create ways of making Jesus' authority of none effect. They made the commandments of God of none effect through traditions. Here it is being made of none effect by claiming that he is only worthy of respect and obedience, but you aren't saying we must obey him.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 25, 2019 17:41:14 GMT -5
I don't think so brother......it is not something perceived by the carnal mind but with the mind of Christ. Sister this answer spooked me , it did . spooked me real bad . Do you want to know why . ITS the way every one who has held onto a belief that is false , answers . ALWAYS ye just have to spiritually understand it . IF you have no answer , then rethink what you think you know . DO it . Because I can explain to folks why I believe and how I believe on any subject that I do believe . You know I love you and you know I don't think YOU ARE FALSE at all . BUT I am telling you I have delt with mega false ones and they answer JUST like you did , in other words they cant , BUT HEY we need to just trust and heed their spiritual knowledge . SISTER , you loved , but be careful . TRY your best to explain this . IF not , leave it be and don't teach it .
Brother, I HAVE been trying to explain the last two or three days..... (whether i have done it well or not is another question, but I have tried)....I just don't think I can say anything more that I haven't already said. It's a matter of understanding. Do we truly believe that Jesus exercises authority the way the princes of this world do?....that He comes in an attitude of DEMANDING obedience and exercises force? Does He violate His own word.....that He asks His followers not to be like that, while He Himself is like the princes of this world? That there is no difference between the authority wielded by fallen man and that of Christ? That He will rule and reign in the millennium in the same manner as the fallen rulers of this world do? We think He needs to, somehow? Do YOU believe that?
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