PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 20, 2019 13:22:35 GMT -5
In my experience, the more the Holy Spirit is at work in something, the more palpable the power of it becomes. When He heals someone, they are quite literally healed. When He prophesies, it is quite literally true. Fleshly efforts to impress, entertain, or intimidate tend to be the stuff of vapor.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 13:23:36 GMT -5
Oh help....this thread is getting away from me now! LOL, I just can't keep up.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 13:24:11 GMT -5
I don't see a difference like you do. I have free will to do whatever I want in this world. Laws are in place, but I can choose to break them. To discourage me from breaking them, there are punishments like fines, jail or death. The same thing occurs with Jesus. We are free to disobey him, but to discourage that, if we disobey, we face chastisement or possibly eternal damnation. In the church, you can disobey the authorities, but to discourage this, you face chastisement or even being put out of the church. What is really the difference?
The difference is the new way of the SPIRIT, as opposed to the old way of our flesh. Of course we should be Spirit led, but in a practical sense, you still obey Jesus or suffer chastisement, loss of rewards or eternal damnation, so to say there is some big difference between that and facing church discipline from a leader who demands his own way doesn't make sense to me. We don't have freedom to rebel against the Lord anymore than to disobey any other authority.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Sept 20, 2019 13:38:44 GMT -5
The question is whether that leader “demanding his own way” is moving his flock closer to the Lord or closer to the world. If a leader is stubbornly and impetuously demanding his own way under pain of spiritual consequences, it tends to be a sign that he does so in the flesh.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 10:23:17 GMT -5
The difference is the new way of the SPIRIT, as opposed to the old way of our flesh. Of course we should be Spirit led, but in a practical sense, you still obey Jesus or suffer chastisement, loss of rewards or eternal damnation, so to say there is some big difference between that and facing church discipline from a leader who demands his own way doesn't make sense to me. We don't have freedom to rebel against the Lord anymore than to disobey any other authority.
You seem to be imputing things to me that I haven't said, brother. I'm just saying what the bible is saying...that authority in the church is spiritual authority, not fleshly authority. Up to us now to rightly divide what the bible is saying. Jesus did say that leadership in the church doesn't exercise authority the way it is done in the world. So up to us to seek the Lord for understanding of His way, which is not the world and flesh way, but is the way of the spirit, since the flesh profits nothing.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 10:30:06 GMT -5
I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ. I was just responding to this, where you said that Jesus did not exert control over the people. You said he did not force or coerce them to obey. I was saying that if we do not obey him, we face chastisement, loss of rewards and even eternal damnation, so I don't see the difference between that and earthly authorities that tell us to do things a certain way or face fines, jail or death. In the church, we face discipline or expulsion. No authorities turn us into robots. We can always choose to disobey them, but with consequences. The same thing is true of following Jesus.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 13:29:53 GMT -5
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ. I was just responding to this, where you said that Jesus did not exert control over the people. You said he did not force or coerce them to obey. I was saying that if we do not obey him, we face chastisement, loss of rewards and even eternal damnation, so I don't see the difference between that and earthly authorities that tell us to do things a certain way or face fines, jail or death. In the church, we face discipline or expulsion. No authorities turn us into robots. We can always choose to disobey them, but with consequences. The same thing is true of following Jesus.
Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Okay, so how do those verses speak to us brother....to me they seem to be saying that those with greater gifts are not to pull rank and impose their will on others. The body of Christ is just not supposed to work that way. Would you agree with that? Leading by example instead. Servant leadership.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 14:19:52 GMT -5
I was just responding to this, where you said that Jesus did not exert control over the people. You said he did not force or coerce them to obey. I was saying that if we do not obey him, we face chastisement, loss of rewards and even eternal damnation, so I don't see the difference between that and earthly authorities that tell us to do things a certain way or face fines, jail or death. In the church, we face discipline or expulsion. No authorities turn us into robots. We can always choose to disobey them, but with consequences. The same thing is true of following Jesus.
Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Okay, so how do those verses speak to us brother....to me they seem to be saying that those with greater gifts are not to pull rank and impose their will on others. The body of Christ is just not supposed to work that way. Would you agree with that? Leading by example instead. Servant leadership. What they speak to me is the need for servant leadership. It is not telling those in authority they cannot exercise that authority. Notice what it says in John's account of Jesus' words, where it goes into more details.
So after he had washed their feet, and had taken his garments, and was set down again he said unto them, know ye what I have done to you? Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have give you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them. John 13:12-17
Jesus makes it clear that He is Lord, which means chief in authority. He expects us to obey Him, and there is a threat of real punishment if we do not obey Him. As for the passage in 1 Peter, it doesn't come across the same if you take it in context. 1 Peter 5:1-4
THE elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed. Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly, not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
The elders have been placed in the position of giving oversight in the church. They have real authority. This is all about attitude, not lack of authority.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 14:26:23 GMT -5
I was just responding to this, where you said that Jesus did not exert control over the people. You said he did not force or coerce them to obey. I was saying that if we do not obey him, we face chastisement, loss of rewards and even eternal damnation, so I don't see the difference between that and earthly authorities that tell us to do things a certain way or face fines, jail or death. In the church, we face discipline or expulsion. No authorities turn us into robots. We can always choose to disobey them, but with consequences. The same thing is true of following Jesus.
Matthew 20:25-28 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Peter 5:3 Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Okay, so how do those verses speak to us brother....to me they seem to be saying that those with greater gifts are not to pull rank and impose their will on others. The body of Christ is just not supposed to work that way. Would you agree with that? Leading by example instead. Servant leadership. We agree that this is speaking of servant leadership, but I am not sure we see that the same way. Those in authority have real authority, and can make decisions that must be carried out, even if others disagree. If that was not so, it is not a position of authority, but they are only advisors. Jesus has real authority, and does demand obedience, but we aren't necessarily struck dead the moment we disobey. Ananias and Sapphira were, but that is the exception, not the rule. The real threat is chastisement, loss of rewards and spiritual death. What I have found in today's church world is that many try to misuse scriptures to claim that there is no real authority. They claim that people have oversight, but no real ability to enforce anything. The people supposedly have the right to disagree and not listen. They do in the sense they are not puppets or robots, but they still face consequences. The same thing goes with those in authority in government. Nobody can stop me from stealing, killing, speeding, driving drunk, anything, but if I do those things, I face penalties ranging from fines to death.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Sept 21, 2019 14:57:16 GMT -5
I did not really want to get back to this thread, but will say just a bit of things.
The elders do have some type of authority which hey can implement, what the word says they can implement, they can, and they have authority from God to do so.
I think their authority is within the bounds of scripture, any authority outside of this is not scriptural regardless of attitude, but of course what usually follows with this is an actual attitude, primarily self righteousness.
So it is about the attitude but also stepping outside the bounds of your authority what you can implement, and what you cannot implement.
The Elders are given for the perfecting of the flock, and not to control them, but at the same time if people step outside of bounds, consequences will follow whether chastisement whatever.
To me I do not agree with most of the way the leadership is implemented in many denominational circles, such as many create a hierarchy, but neither do I agree with the Brethren to were it is not an office.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 16:18:00 GMT -5
I did not really want to get back to this thread, but will say just a bit of things. The elders do have some type of authority which hey can implement, what the word says they can implement, they can, and they have authority from God to do so. I think there authority in within the bounds of scripture, any authority outside of this is not scriptural regardless of attitude, but of course what usually follows this is an actual attitude, primarily self righteousness. So it is about the attitude but also stepping outside the bounds of your authority what you can implement, and what you cannot implement. The Elders are given for the perfecting of the flock, and not to control them, but at the same time if people step outside of bounds, consequences will follow whether chastisement whatever. To me I do not agree with most of the way the leadership is implemented in many denominational circles, such as many create a hierarchy, but neither do I agree with the Brethren to were it is not an office. The authorities are real, but it is human nature to desire to dominate and be superior to others. That is why these instructions are given. They are not given to us so we can determine if someone is going too far, but they are given to the authorities so they will not become abusive. When you have someone with absolute power, they have to use self-control to do right and be fair to others. It is like with a King. If the King is bad, who is going to stop them? Only God can choose to step in, because the King's authority is real and absolute in the natural. A good King has to choose to be a servant leader. A good King was someone like Hezekiah and Josiah. Even David became abusive with his power in the case of Bathsheba and her husband. Ultimately, just like those who rebel against authorities face the wrath of God, those who are abusive will also have to stand before God at the judgment and give an account of themselves for their actions. We should all seek to please Christ, because He is above all of us.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Sept 21, 2019 17:33:05 GMT -5
The authorities are real, but it is human nature to desire to dominate and be superior to others. That is why these instructions are given. They are not given to us so we can determine if someone is going too far, but they are given to the authorities so they will not become abusive.
Well I think there is a type of instruction in both situations. In the realm of them not becoming abusive, there is things like this: Tit 1:7 (7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; If a bishop seeks to be not self willed, or a filthy lucre (greedy, covetous in getting money, love of money), and such things, than he will not be abusive, which God wants bishops to be this way. But also there are instructions to be implement, to were someone as gone too far, such as this, to were they have to be put out of the church: 1Co 5:1-5 (1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. (3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. There is all kinds of different instructions, but if they have the right attitude, right motivation, such as not being self willed, than they can implement things rightly.
|
|
|
Post by John on Sept 21, 2019 17:37:53 GMT -5
The authorities are real, but it is human nature to desire to dominate and be superior to others. That is why these instructions are given. They are not given to us so we can determine if someone is going too far, but they are given to the authorities so they will not become abusive.
Well I think there is a type of instruction in both situations. In the realm of them not becoming abusive, there is things like this: Tit 1:7 (7) For a bishop must be blameless, as the steward of God; not selfwilled, not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre; If a bishop seeks to be not self willed, or a filthy lucre (greedy, covetous in getting money, love of money), and such things, than he will not be abusive, which God wants bishops to be this way. But also there are instructions to be implement, to were someone as gone too far, such as this, to were they have to be put out of the church: 1Co 5:1-5 (1) It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. (2) And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you. (3) For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed, (4) In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, (5) To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. There is all kinds of different instructions. That is true. No matter what your calling is, or your position, there are instructions in scripture that apply to you. We need to be concerned first with doing what God instructs us to do, and afterward on what others do. If you are a Pastor, look at what the Bible says to Pastors, and obey. When you obey that, you are obeying Christ. If you are a Deacon or Elder, look at what the Bible says to Deacons and Elders, and obey. When you do that, you are obeying Christ. Those of us who are members of the body of Christ need to obey those things that apply to us. That is the case as parents, husbands, wives, children, leaders, laymen, anything. That is how we obey the Lord.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2019 18:32:00 GMT -5
Well, I'll leave it to you gentlemen to sort out. Just a couple or three thoughts from me and then I'm done here as well. One thing is that I think we need to look a bit beyond just attitude, since good attitudes can arise from the flesh just as easily as bad, and is filthy rags to God. And I want to say that I don't believe Jesus came demanding obedience...that wasn't and isn't His approach. Lastly, church leaders are not likened to kings, that's exactly the system that we need to get out of our minds and hearts....if the body of Christ were actually functioning as a body there would be no king but Christ and anyone found trying to be a king would be shouted down by other members of the body (so to speak).
But I doubt we'll see a perfect body or church until the end...to the degree that anyone is still in the flesh they will lead according to the flesh, and to the degree that anyone is in the spirit they will lead according to the spirit. Meanwhile we do our best to muddle on by His grace, looking forward to that perfect day.
|
|
|
Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 21, 2019 19:14:41 GMT -5
And I want to say that I don't believe Jesus came demanding obedience...that wasn't and isn't His approach. I think I understand what you say.
There is only ONE way people can truly obey Jesus, and that is through love.
If people do not love Him they will not be able to obey Him.
“For if I do this willingly, I have a reward;
but if against my will, I have been entrusted with a stewardship.” - 1 Corinthians 9:17
“So let each one give as he purposes in his heart,
not grudgingly or of necessity; for God loves a cheerful giver.” - 2 Corinthians 9:7
“So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen.” - Matthew 20:16
Blessings!
|
|