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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 9:51:27 GMT -5
Anyhow to me denominations are man made, and God never gave an example for us to make one up. I would rather follow the example of the bible, than defend something that is not biblical. But on that note, I will ask the question I asked at the beginning, you may be out of the system, but how much of the system is still in you? I would suggest that we all have some of the system in us. If you go back to the original church, what I see is the Apostles went to new places, established churches with converts they won, and then continued this pattern. They went from one place to another establishing new churches. Rather than having a denomination, the one that established the churches became an overseer of all the churches they established. In that, I do see something similar to denominations. The difference is that their oversight was not organized. It was just lending general oversight. They didn't have programs and rules in place that all the churches had to follow, but they simply made sure they were faithfully continuing to follow the Lord.
You didn't have multiple churches in each city. You may have had different meeting places, but it was known as the church of Philadelphia or Corinth or Ephesus or Rome. You didn't have churches named after a bunch of different people, often the result of splits. In that way, the church had more unity. They were all of the same general beliefs, founded upon the doctrine of the Apostles. Today, you have dozens of churches in the smallest of towns divided over doctrines established by the reformers and individuals who happened to form their own independent congregations. I don't know of any way to return to the early pattern in this regard. You could form a church and call it the church of such and such city, but you would still be one of dozens or hundreds of churches there. In one way, I am not so sure that this split can't trace it's roots to the very beginning, where they were saying I am of Paul and I am of Apollos. That was not something positive. Paul was coming against such divisions, but it was already happening then.
The best anyone could do is attempt to reach new converts, establish new churches, and try to oversee them, and give them their names according to their city. To me, the result will be something similar to a denomination, because there is one thing we are lacking in what we see in the original pattern. We see how it was at the very beginning, not what occurred after the original Apostles died. Who continued with the oversight then? If you want to return to the original pattern, you would have to begin by ignoring everything that exists, begin with a new group of Apostles with new converts and have them going city to city starting churches and overseeing them. Is that possible today? Is that even desirable? Who will be the Apostles of this generation to do this work? How many will there be? I do believe we can be modern day reformers, working to get as close to the original pattern as possible, but I am not sure we can start over as though nothing has taken place over the last 2000 years.
I would agree with some of the points here, I do not find that the church back then resembled denominations. But they did have only one gospel, but today denominations in the overall has to be affiliated to the government, and even the government to one degree or another try to exert some control over churches treatening to remove their I think it is called their charitable status or something like that, if they preach on such and such. So there is control on each side, denominational and government, and well look what it says of the Pergamos church. In this specific verse, it does mention this: 1Co 16:1 (1) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. Here in this case it is in plural. Then there is this: Phm 1:2 (2) And to our beloved Apphia, and Archippus our fellowsoldier, and to the church in thy house: I think it is possible to return to the original ways, for with God all things are possible, and I think it is already being set in motion, even though a lot of work is required to get there.
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 9:55:47 GMT -5
And by system, I mean denominations, their structure, how things are implemented, the whole thing, and that we need to get away from this system, and just follow God's ways. Herein is the thing we should be looking for. What are God's ways, and how can we follow them best in 2019? Will there be a new Apostolic age of church planting and oversight? How do we accomplish this? I want to be as close to the original as possible, but I don't think denominations are so much the problem as they are set up wrong and doing things in opposition to the Bible. To me, done right, they are just providing general oversight like the Apostles did, but they have become corrupted and they have compromised to reach people.
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 9:59:51 GMT -5
Lording over literally means to subjugate, control and so on, that is what lording over something is, you subdue it, until you control it in every way, which with it follows a self righteous attitude.. And there is a difference between exerting control of situations, in a biblical manner according what the word allows via a role of authority, and controlling, subjugating the flock and so on. To me it is very simple to see. The one who is the ultimate leader is the Holy Spirit. All leaders must submit to him and his guidance otherwise, they will not be leading well. And they must lead in the right spirit. And let us use paul as an example . See how he first wrote the Corinthians the second time , so that they would REPENT because he would rather find them walking in truth . But take a look at this too . And I will bewail many etc . Paul Lorded not over the flock , but you better believe he was coming with a ROD unto all who had not repented . They were HELPERS of the faith . Sharp rebukers too when it was surely needed . Very grave too . IN fact he told them in the first letter , You cast that man out and rebuked them because they had not done so already . SO to be very sharp and grave is not LORDING IT , ITS BIG TIME necessary , for we love all and desire none to perish . You be encouraged giller . And raise those hands up and just praise the HOLY LORD . ITS all about being in THE RIGHT SPIRIT . we rebuke sharply out of fear for their souls and to protect the others from leaven too . ITS ALL ABOUT the AGAPE LOVE OF GOD that cometh with chastisments when needed and with encouragemnts too .
What you say is so true about how Paul at times gave grave rebukes. And there is a time for every thing. But also there are times it was done in a more gentle way, it depended on the circumstance. But i do not believe that he did things as a result of a temper of course, but rather at times as a result of righteous anger. Here is another scripture to think upon: Jas 1:19 (19) Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 10:06:01 GMT -5
Having thought about this, perhaps we should return to the Apostolic model. I totally agree with you about having no ties to the government.
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 10:10:33 GMT -5
And there was not only severe warnings to the Pergamos church, but also to other churches, which I believe one of them is based on a denominational model.
Even though Pergamos seemed to be also headed that way, or maybe even there.
In fact I believe Nimrod's Babylonian model was based on church and state as well, although his was a cult of course.
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 10:13:19 GMT -5
Anyhow to me denominations are man made, and God never gave an example for us to make one up. I would rather follow the example of the bible, than defend something that is not biblical. But on that note, I will ask the question I asked at the beginning, you may be out of the system, but how much of the system is still in you? More than I realized. You have made me re-think some things. The structure of the denominations is way off from the original pattern. Most likely, Protestants came out of the RCC but still had some of that system in them.
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Post by Giller on Sept 20, 2019 10:15:54 GMT -5
And I do believe that there are some houses churches that are of God, I think in these cases, there just possibly needs to be a greater connection among them.
And gradually work together to get were we need to be.
And gradually God can raise Apostles, in fact I do not know of any true modern apostles that i am aware of, were did that office go?
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 10:20:02 GMT -5
And I do believe that there are some houses churches that are of God, I think in these cases, there just possibly needs to be a greater connection among them. And gradually work together to get were we need to be. And gradually God can raise Apostles, in fact I do not know of any true modern apostles that i am aware of, were did that office go? The closest thing we have today to Apostles are missionaries.
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Post by John on Sept 20, 2019 10:22:30 GMT -5
And I do believe that there are some houses churches that are of God, I think in these cases, there just possibly needs to be a greater connection among them. And gradually work together to get were we need to be. And gradually God can raise Apostles, in fact I do not know of any true modern apostles that i am aware of, were did that office go? I have no problem with house churches. If 2 or 3 are gathered, you can have church. We are an online church to some. It is just about not forsaking to fellowship with other Christians.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 20, 2019 11:09:06 GMT -5
Affiliation papers from a government absolutely come with strings attached. No way around it. No matter how friendly that government may seem to Christianity. The Church of England had its share of corruption and unfairness because it was so very English. No government in its right mind will endorse an entity that attacks it too much. No matter how you slice it, national security, economic growth, and other such matters will be the government’s primary loyalty. Why do you suppose the prosperity gospel is so openly tolerated from the pulpit? Make no mistake, the American government benefits from the mainstream church in more ways than they let on.
There was no king in God’s original plan for Israel. No tax system, no prisons to maintain, no department of transportation. As soon as anything — even national security — comes between a people and God, there will be conflict.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 20, 2019 12:32:47 GMT -5
Just to let you all know . By what all are saying and have been saying , ME TOO , we would be labled haters of society by many in so called church denominations . And the pope is not well pleased with us . YEAH , on that note , LEAP UP AND PRAISE THE LORD , REJOICE for so did they do evil and speak evil unto the prophets . LEAP up . If most of the churches and Rome would not approve of us , WE IN THE RIGHT POSITION IN CHRIST . IT MEANS WE AINT COMPROMISED .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 12:59:22 GMT -5
<< You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. >> I just want to comment on this once more brother. What you are saying here is only true of worldly and fleshly authority. God's ways are not man's ways. Jesus did not exert control over the people...He allowed them their own free will to either follow and obey, or not. He never forced or coerced anyone to follow Him. That is exactly the kind of earthly "kingship" He fled from when they tried to crown Him their king. Even tares are allowed to grow alongside the wheat in the church. Have to remember we are not wrestling with flesh and blood...authority in the church is SPIRITUAL authority and is itself under authority and needs to be in submission to Christ. I don't see a difference like you do. I have free will to do whatever I want in this world. Laws are in place, but I can choose to break them. To discourage me from breaking them, there are punishments like fines, jail or death. The same thing occurs with Jesus. We are free to disobey him, but to discourage that, if we disobey, we face chastisement or possibly eternal damnation. In the church, you can disobey the authorities, but to discourage this, you face chastisement or even being put out of the church. What is really the difference?
The difference is the new way of the SPIRIT, as opposed to the old way of our flesh.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 20, 2019 13:11:53 GMT -5
Anything that relies on flesh instead of spirit, in any part of the equation, will unravel in the end. Authority, submission, service, leadership, speaking, hearing, you name it. These things are all tools which can go good or bad. Infatuation with a celebrity pastor can lead to perpetual babyness, dependency on man, and maybe even tolerance of abuse. There’s no checklist we can use to bypass the Holy Spirit for anything.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 20, 2019 13:14:12 GMT -5
I don't see a difference like you do. I have free will to do whatever I want in this world. Laws are in place, but I can choose to break them. To discourage me from breaking them, there are punishments like fines, jail or death. The same thing occurs with Jesus. We are free to disobey him, but to discourage that, if we disobey, we face chastisement or possibly eternal damnation. In the church, you can disobey the authorities, but to discourage this, you face chastisement or even being put out of the church. What is really the difference?
The difference is the new way of the SPIRIT, as opposed to the old way of our flesh. Amen!
“For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.” - Galatians 5:6
“We love Him because He first loved us.” - 1 John 4:19
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 13:18:17 GMT -5
I can’t tell exactly what this thread is about, nor what Giller means by system. Is this about the need for a chain of command to provide oversight and counsel? Is this about how to organize like-minded Christians? How much of a ‘business model’ should be present? John’s main concern seems to be that authority with no practical power is no real authority. When Paul said he delivered people to Satan for a season of working on their flesh, I don’t see that as mere vaporing; he must have been able to actually do it. What a chilling thought for Paul to speak over you that you’re about to be free game for Satan’s minions. That proposition is worse than any berating lecture or insulting personal treatment. I’d rather take a beating than to hear an apostle say he’s letting Satan work on me. The real question to me is how many modern shepherds are capable of doing it the apostles’ way. Without their level of power and grace, any model will become a business model in the end. Ultimately the problem has been a lack of the Holy Spirit as well as a lack of understanding the scriptures about the early church and pure doctrine. The vast majority of churches have been doing things the flesh way which has led to error such as chism in the body between "pulpit" and "pew" (so-called clergy-laity division), which in turn has fostered a host of other problems. That is the system that I think Giller is talking about. It's fleshly, and it's fruit is ripening unto apostasy now. Sister, as long as we aren't thinking that doing things the way of the Spirit is vaporous (which I don't think we are)....but I just want to comment that it isn't at all vaporous, it's mighty in God to the pulling down of strongholds, etc. The flesh profits nothing. If we only look on outward appearances with eyes of flesh, the way of the Spirit might appear to be ineffective, but in the spirit it destroys the works of the enemy. Things of God are backwards to how the world sees....for instance who with the mind of flesh would have thought that the crucifixion of Jesus was the greatest victory the world has ever seen? Who would think that we being sheep to the slaughter in our life means victory in Christ?
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