PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 30, 2019 9:50:53 GMT -5
They may pick up a handful of unbelievers, but by and large, the numbers show that they mostly attract established believers from failed churches nearby.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 30, 2019 10:13:09 GMT -5
There’s another interesting factor in all this. There’s a high correlation between spiritual maturity and dropping out of the system. What they call the “Done” phenomenon is made of the most devout and mature believers who come to see the system as kindergarten. As soon as a person fully and objectively read the New Testament, they are statistically very likely to walk out of church.
The church population in North America is an ever shrinking crowd of perpetual babies who drift to the next cool church. Instead of having them all spread out in local family gatherings, the mega church model compresses them into one building. Then that one building looks packed, and you think to yourself, well this place is packed, so there are a lot of Christians and the church is growing. But this is an illusion. If you got all the people in society who still like disco music, and you put them together in one arena, it may look like a lot of people, but that doesn’t mean disco is big across society.
If you look at the hard numbers of where Christianity and church attendance stand in north American society, the decline is ginormous. The seeker friendly stuff is objectively losing. They’ve had the stats on this for years, and they don’t care.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2019 10:21:16 GMT -5
Giller it’s worth noting that even megachurches close in the end. Mark Driscoll’s empire dissolved when that scandal got him fired, and Mars Hill megachurch is no more. Twelve thousand souls were affected. Most of them scattered. Where did they go? No one knows. Megachurch growth is not from converting the utterly lost as they claim — it’s transfer attendance from nearby struggling churches, as well as resumed attendance for confessing young adults who had backslidden for a while. The seeker-friendly model hasn’t made a dent in the atheist portion of society. Can you think of a single person you’ve ever met, who was totally lost and unfamiliar with church, who became a Christian because a local church had cool music? They have the statistics to show this. Half of all American churchgoers attend the top 10% of megachurches. Think about that. This handful of giant churches with all the publicity has had to corral half the church population. They are not bringing fresh blood into the system. They are persecuting and/or acquiring small churches that compete with them, in the same way that Walmart bankrupts small local retailers. Walmart’s success doesn’t prove there are “more people” buying bread and milk. Yes, these megachurches actually do business deals to acquire a local church. They buy the property and pay off the pastor to resign. Then they move their people in to impose their teaching material and worship songs. If a certain congregation is a threat to them, they’ll build a ‘cooler’ upstart church across the street. Here’s a personal testimony from someone who watched a megachurch destroy his local flock. landsharkattacks.blogspot.com/2014/07/james-macdonald-killed-my-church.html One thing I have found to be a major factor in the downfall of a church is having it start out one way and then do an about face. I know of one person that became so dissolutioned by his church doing that, he quit believing in God. You can't build a church on holiness doctrine and become seeker friendly without running people off. That is what led to my leaving my first Pastor behind.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2019 10:29:39 GMT -5
What do you think about mega churches like the one Joel Osteen Pastors? It is clearly personality driven, but does it remain as long as he lives and remains Pastor, or does it eventually start losing members and downsize? I don't know what keeps people going there.
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 10:30:23 GMT -5
I do not doubt what you are saying is accurate Candance.
All I know is this that at least here, it seems that the churches that are losing the most members are the non seeker sensitive churches.
Most may be church transfers, and yes immature Christians, going from assembly to assembly.
And in truth most unbelievers care nothing about what is called church, though there may be some who would only consider it, in the form of a social and stuff like that, and many would not go on a regular basis.
So you might be right for the most part, but there may be some exceptions here and there, anyhow God bless.
And it seems to some degree or another that atheism may be on the rise (correct me if I am wrong), but to what degree I do not know.
All I know is that some unbelievers I talk to seem to believe there is a god, and others say they do not believe there is a god.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2019 10:42:41 GMT -5
Giller , to me, a gathering of non-believers isn't a church, but a social club. As such, it seems like we have re-defined what a church is.
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 10:54:28 GMT -5
Giller , to me, a gathering of non-believers isn't a church, but a social club. As such, it seems like we have re-defined what a church is.
Oh I agree, I am not defining that as a church, but just speaking in general of what is happening in the church world, or in what is called church.
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 10:57:36 GMT -5
I am not defining anything in my comments, for my comments are not based on that.
My comments are based on what is happening.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2019 11:01:11 GMT -5
I am not defining anything in my comments, for my comments are not based on that. My comments are based on what is happening. What is funny to me is there are likely many that would say your house meetings are not a real church, but at least that is a gathering together of Christians!
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 11:20:47 GMT -5
I am not defining anything in my comments, for my comments are not based on that. My comments are based on what is happening. What is funny to me is there are likely many that would say your house meetings are not a real church, but at least that is a gathering together of Christians!
Maybe so, but I do not really care about what people think. Let people think what they think.
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 11:23:16 GMT -5
I am not defining anything in my comments, for my comments are not based on that. My comments are based on what is happening. What is funny to me is there are likely many that would say your house meetings are not a real church, but at least that is a gathering together of Christians!
But anyhow, I just want to know, and I am not saying this in a bad way, just want to know if there is a point you are trying to make with this?
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Post by Giller on Sept 30, 2019 11:26:46 GMT -5
Only care about what God thinks.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 30, 2019 11:31:10 GMT -5
I’d like to touch on the issue of why conventional churches close and people run to the cool megachurch down the road. Denominations purposely use their best talent and their financial backing to favor seeker friendly models. In fact if you look at these huge mega churches with these cool pastors, most of them are actually denominational churches. They are running the SBC and many others. Traditional churches are given lackluster pastors who were sent there to manage a closure. They can’t get funds to redecorate, and they don’t dream of asking the bosses to send them a smart young pastor.
Meanwhile, an entrepreneur new church planter moves in across the street, offering everything from carnivals to movie nights. You complain to your denomination boss, and he does nothing. Ambitious young adults who visit the new church are promised quick promotion. Big worship team, big youth department, lots of leadership jobs available. Denominational money is paying for it. They consider an investment to get a profitable church up and running.
What can traditional churches do? Unless they have the next apostle Paul in their midst, they can’t make it.
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Post by John on Sept 30, 2019 11:39:30 GMT -5
What is funny to me is there are likely many that would say your house meetings are not a real church, but at least that is a gathering together of Christians!
But anyhow, I just want to know, and I am not saying this in a bad way, just want to know if there is a point you are trying to make with this? I consider your house church more real than those mega churches.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 30, 2019 11:41:39 GMT -5
Believe me Giller, the mainstream system is hitting the message hard out there that little home groups like yours are invalid. If I told someone like Jason Daye about your home church, he would say it’s a bunch of sour grapes from petulant prima donnas who stomped out of church because they couldn’t get their way. You of course don’t care what Jason Daye thinks, but that propaganda is coming hard and heavy on young people still in the system.
I recently read a blog post where one of the main stream leaders ranted about those who quit the system. He said “the first five books of the Bible show us how God feels about complainers.” Thousands if not millions of unhappy Christians are still in the system, petrified that they’ll be apostate if they leave.
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