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Post by John on Jan 16, 2020 19:53:06 GMT -5
Abagail's husband was a wicked man. There is no question about that, but her behavior was not that of a good help meet. She betrayed her husband. She did what she did to save her household from David's rage. Her actions did lead to David's anger being appeased, but she did absolutely nothing that was a help to her husband. He was such a sinful man that God struck him down. In the end, David wound up taking her as one of his wives. He had more than one wife.
The issue isn't that you claim we are not under one or more parts of the curse. The issue is that if we are not under the curse, we shouldn't be under any of it. If we are under a single portion of the curse today, nothing you said makes any sense. I realize that in trying to defend your beliefs, you say the Bible doesn't make sense in all cases, but your claims are based on nothing but your opinion. You have your own private interpretation, and to defend that, you claim to be more spiritual than others. You blame the church for being guilty of false teaching, but in your world, if it goes against your beliefs, it is false.
No indeed, on the contrary, scripture commends Abigail...and she was doing the will of God. 1Sa 25:32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me David commended her, because it stopped him from doing violence. Those were his words. He would later take her for his own wife, number 3.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2020 19:56:20 GMT -5
Abagail's husband was a wicked man. There is no question about that, but her behavior was not that of a good help meet. She betrayed her husband. She did what she did to save her household from David's rage. Her actions did lead to David's anger being appeased, but she did absolutely nothing that was a help to her husband. He was such a sinful man that God struck him down. In the end, David wound up taking her as one of his wives. He had more than one wife.
The issue isn't that you claim we are not under one or more parts of the curse. The issue is that if we are not under the curse, we shouldn't be under any of it. If we are under a single portion of the curse today, nothing you said makes any sense. I realize that in trying to defend your beliefs, you say the Bible doesn't make sense in all cases, but your claims are based on nothing but your opinion. You have your own private interpretation, and to defend that, you claim to be more spiritual than others. You blame the church for being guilty of false teaching, but in your world, if it goes against your beliefs, it is false.
No indeed, on the contrary, scripture commends Abigail...and she was doing the will of God. 1Sa 25:32 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me King Saul, after God had rejected him, used similar speech to people that took his side. He would often say something like, "Blessed be you of the Lord for having compassion on me," or something to that effect. That is not saying that person was doing the will of God. If you doubt me, I will post some examples after prayer meeting.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2020 19:58:48 GMT -5
1 Samuel 23:21 is one such example. It didn't take me but a second to find that one.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2020 20:50:42 GMT -5
In 1 Samuel 23:7, if I was using scripture the way you did Watchful, I would have to conclude it was the will of God to shut David in where Saul could kill him. Look at what Saul says...
And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.
This scripture says God delivered David into Saul's hands. God was given the credit for this, but that was just Saul speaking, because he believed it was so, when it was not. Now, we look at the passage you referenced to claim Abigail was commended for going against her husband. 1 Samuel 25:32-33
And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand.
There is no difference in Saul's assertion and David's. David was giving God credit, much like Saul had done. This is not claiming Abigail was a good help meet to her husband.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jan 17, 2020 0:29:25 GMT -5
So Christians women no longer have pain during childbirth? here is something i did pray on when my daughter was being born. God did not answer that prayer... after a little while i asked if you wont take the pain away please just get it over with fast. my daughter was delivered in 15 minutes.
you are going to have a real hard time proving we are no longer under the curses in genesis just because we are saved. show me where in scripture it says what you claim. I can show you what curse is however lifted by Jesus:
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
the curses in genesis are different.
Gen 3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; Gen 3:18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
furthermore, show me one example or testimony where someone spoke to some thorns or weeds and they were cast away... one example where a christian woman had zero pain in child birth.
Scripture tels us its the curse of sin and death thats been lifted. I cant find in scripture where it says the genesis curses are also lifted... can you show me in scripture where it says this? If we cant find it in scripture, and there is no evidence in the physical world... from where did you get this idea?
edit: oh yeah i forgot... in gen 3:19 it says... till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
if this is lifted show me evidence of one man who no longer dies.
The curse has not been lifted....the whole lost fallen world lies under it still....and we still live in a fallen world. It only that those themselves who are in Christ are not "under" the curse of the fall any more, by faith.....because those who are born of God are not fallen any longer. A curse is not a command, brother....otherwise you would be in sin and 'violating' the curse every time you plowed the hard ground or pulled weeds in your field....we would all be in sin and violating the curse every time we prayed for healing or tried to help someone in an emergency to stay alive. Jesus taught His disciples about the sparrows and lilies of the field which TOIL NOT, yet the Father feeds and clothes them...so we are not to worry about and run after these things like the still cursed and fallen Gentiles do...but instead seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and these things will be added to us......that doesn't sound to me like the followers of Christ were still under the curse. Likewise the husband's "ruling over" their wives part (like the fallen pagans do) is not a command, but a curse....the curse is what the human race FELL into, not what we are to obey. The man being the head of the woman just has nothing to do with the curse, but it is for other reasons. Paul gave the reasons and didn't mention anything about the curse. And for we who are in the kingdom of God headship and authority are not like the fallen world who are still under the curse...God's ways are not like man's ways: Mat 20:24-28 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Pe 5:2-3 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. Well I hope this helps, I just don't know what more can be said to clarify these things. Bless you. so in your response i am not seeing one scripture that shows those who are in the faith are not under the genesis curses.
in your response i see no evidence that women no longer have pain during child birth due to faith.
let me bottom line this for you... in all ways every bit of suffering can be traced back to the original sin in the garden. every disease. and yet christians die of diseases and cancer every day. Christians suffer still. did you know right now in the world there are 39 types of categories of diseases today? did you know that back in Jesus' day it was believed that 40 lashes from the cat-o-nine was sure death and so only 39 lashes were given even when the sentence was 40 lashes? by His stripes we were healed.
I do not desire to debate whether Jesus received 39 or 40 lashes. either way the price was paid. and yet, every day born again believers die of diseases, they get sick, so i am having a real hard time coming to terms with what you are claiming here about believers not being under the curse. it is readily apparent that we are.
its even more bizarre the claim you make when you cant provide even one scripture, or one testimony. it is true you quoted scripture, however, none of the scripture you provided says what you are saying. instead you say it sounds like or you think. ... you think? based on what? I would encourage you to not build a foundation of beliefs on i think. that is grounds for serious error. show me scripture that says genesis curses are null. I have provided scripture that says plainly my position. I have not brought i think to the table. I have brounght scripture and evidence in the physical world that can be observed.
there used to be a man i knew. a Chaplin. whatever that is. some kinda preacher? idk. the flu was going around. he was saying in Jesus name i wont get sick... in Jesus name i stand against catching the flu and i rebuke that evil... blah blah blah. i knew as he was saying all this God was going to show him how the name it and claim it stuff is fake and religious. He said all this in the evening. he called in sick in the morning. he had faith not to get sick... but he still got sick. the bottom line here... what was his faith in... Jesus? or did he have faith that his faith wouldnt let him get sick... like some kind of magical charm. like some kinda talisman. this way of thinking is a form of superstition. its common in the fallen mans mindset. the truth is faith in Jesus is faith in Him. if He allows you to get sick praise God. if He heals you... praise God. but even if you die... praise God... and that is faith IN Jesus, not in my faith wont let me get sick. God is not a God that is above suffering/us suffering. so where then does faith stand?
If you need time to search the scriptures i will be glad to pick up this conversation again with you later.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 6:55:14 GMT -5
The curse has not been lifted....the whole lost fallen world lies under it still....and we still live in a fallen world. It only that those themselves who are in Christ are not "under" the curse of the fall any more, by faith.....because those who are born of God are not fallen any longer. A curse is not a command, brother....otherwise you would be in sin and 'violating' the curse every time you plowed the hard ground or pulled weeds in your field....we would all be in sin and violating the curse every time we prayed for healing or tried to help someone in an emergency to stay alive. Jesus taught His disciples about the sparrows and lilies of the field which TOIL NOT, yet the Father feeds and clothes them...so we are not to worry about and run after these things like the still cursed and fallen Gentiles do...but instead seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness and these things will be added to us......that doesn't sound to me like the followers of Christ were still under the curse. Likewise the husband's "ruling over" their wives part (like the fallen pagans do) is not a command, but a curse....the curse is what the human race FELL into, not what we are to obey. The man being the head of the woman just has nothing to do with the curse, but it is for other reasons. Paul gave the reasons and didn't mention anything about the curse. And for we who are in the kingdom of God headship and authority are not like the fallen world who are still under the curse...God's ways are not like man's ways: Mat 20:24-28 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many. 1Pe 5:2-3 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. Well I hope this helps, I just don't know what more can be said to clarify these things. Bless you. so in your response i am not seeing one scripture that shows those who are in the faith are not under the genesis curses.
in your response i see no evidence that women no longer have pain during child birth due to faith.
let me bottom line this for you... in all ways every bit of suffering can be traced back to the original sin in the garden. every disease. and yet christians die of diseases and cancer every day. Christians suffer still. did you know right now in the world there are 39 types of categories of diseases today? did you know that back in Jesus' day it was believed that 40 lashes from the cat-o-nine was sure death and so only 39 lashes were given even when the sentence was 40 lashes? by His stripes we were healed.
I do not desire to debate whether Jesus received 39 or 40 lashes. either way the price was paid. and yet, every day born again believers die of diseases, they get sick, so i am having a real hard time coming to terms with what you are claiming here about believers not being under the curse. it is readily apparent that we are.
its even more bizarre the claim you make when you cant provide even one scripture, or one testimony. it is true you quoted scripture, however, none of the scripture you provided says what you are saying. instead you say it sounds like or you think. ... you think? based on what? I would encourage you to not build a foundation of beliefs on i think. that is grounds for serious error. show me scripture that says genesis curses are null. I have provided scripture that says plainly my position. I have not brought i think to the table. I have brounght scripture and evidence in the physical world that can be observed.
there used to be a man i knew. a Chaplin. whatever that is. some kinda preacher? idk. the flu was going around. he was saying in Jesus name i wont get sick... in Jesus name i stand against catching the flu and i rebuke that evil... blah blah blah. i knew as he was saying all this God was going to show him how the name it and claim it stuff is fake and religious. He said all this in the evening. he called in sick in the morning. he had faith not to get sick... but he still got sick. the bottom line here... what was his faith in... Jesus? or did he have faith that his faith wouldnt let him get sick... like some kind of magical charm. like some kinda talisman. this way of thinking is a form of superstition. its common in the fallen mans mindset. the truth is faith in Jesus is faith in Him. if He allows you to get sick praise God. if He heals you... praise God. but even if you die... praise God... and that is faith IN Jesus, not in my faith wont let me get sick. God is not a God that is above suffering/us suffering. so where then does faith stand?
If you need time to search the scriptures i will be glad to pick up this conversation again with you later.
I really thought you might get it brother. Never mind. I have brought other scriptures as well as even a testimony earlier in the debate about this. It's been a long haul and time to set it aside now. No, I don't believe in name it and claim it Christianity and that is not in any way what I have been trying to say. I'm just done with this subject now....bless you.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 7:13:12 GMT -5
In 1 Samuel 23:7, if I was using scripture the way you did Watchful, I would have to conclude it was the will of God to shut David in where Saul could kill him. Look at what Saul says... And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.This scripture says God delivered David into Saul's hands. God was given the credit for this, but that was just Saul speaking, because he believed it was so, when it was not. Now, we look at the passage you referenced to claim Abigail was commended for going against her husband. 1 Samuel 25:32-33 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand.There is no difference in Saul's assertion and David's. David was giving God credit, much like Saul had done. This is not claiming Abigail was a good help meet to her husband. Just as we know that Saul was wrong, we can know in like manner that David was speaking the truth, brother. Abigail's actions and intercession influenced God's anointed not to sin and turned away disaster from her entire household. It's necessary also to understand the similitudes in that whole account....it wasn't written as a biography per se but to teach us spiritual things. Maybe it would be better to look into that another day on another thread anyhow...it really would be going too far off topic for another long discussion about that here.
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Post by solid on Jan 17, 2020 8:49:07 GMT -5
In 1 Samuel 23:7, if I was using scripture the way you did Watchful, I would have to conclude it was the will of God to shut David in where Saul could kill him. Look at what Saul says... And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.This scripture says God delivered David into Saul's hands. God was given the credit for this, but that was just Saul speaking, because he believed it was so, when it was not. Now, we look at the passage you referenced to claim Abigail was commended for going against her husband. 1 Samuel 25:32-33 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand.There is no difference in Saul's assertion and David's. David was giving God credit, much like Saul had done. This is not claiming Abigail was a good help meet to her husband. Just as we know that Saul was wrong, we can know in like manner that David was speaking the truth, brother. Abigail's actions and intercession influenced God's anointed not to sin and turned away disaster from her entire household. It's necessary also to understand the similitudes in that whole account....it wasn't written as a biography per se but to teach us spiritual things. Maybe it would be better to look into that another day on another thread anyhow...it really would be going too far off topic for another long discussion about that here. I think that she did what she had to in order to save her household, but the Bible never says anyone but David said she did the right thing. This definitely is not an example of a good help meet. It is a reminder that God comes first, and a husband can't force his wife to sin.
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Post by John on Jan 17, 2020 9:06:12 GMT -5
In 1 Samuel 23:7, if I was using scripture the way you did Watchful, I would have to conclude it was the will of God to shut David in where Saul could kill him. Look at what Saul says... And it was told Saul that David was come to Keilah. And Saul said, God hath delivered him into mine hand; for he is shut in, by entering into a town that hath gates and bars.This scripture says God delivered David into Saul's hands. God was given the credit for this, but that was just Saul speaking, because he believed it was so, when it was not. Now, we look at the passage you referenced to claim Abigail was commended for going against her husband. 1 Samuel 25:32-33 And David said to Abigail, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, which sent thee this day to meet me: And blessed be thy advice, and blessed be thou, which hast kept me this day from coming to shed blood, and from avenging myself with mine own hand.There is no difference in Saul's assertion and David's. David was giving God credit, much like Saul had done. This is not claiming Abigail was a good help meet to her husband. Just as we know that Saul was wrong, we can know in like manner that David was speaking the truth, brother. Abigail's actions and intercession influenced God's anointed not to sin and turned away disaster from her entire household. It's necessary also to understand the similitudes in that whole account....it wasn't written as a biography per se but to teach us spiritual things. Maybe it would be better to look into that another day on another thread anyhow...it really would be going too far off topic for another long discussion about that here. The issue is that just because the Bible quotes someone, that doesn't mean what they said was correct. In the book of Job, there are all kinds of things said about God that are not true by Job's friends. You can't build doctrine around their comments. The Bible accurately tells us what they said, but they didn't speak for God. In the case of Saul and David, neither were speaking for God. That is all I am saying, and as such, there is nothing in the text that says God commended Abigail or that God says this is a good example of how a wife should behave. I would say she was not showing herself to be a good wife, but she did know that her husband was doing evil in the sight of God, because David was God's anointed, so she acted accordingly. I would think she was likely a good wife to David, though we don't hear much about her after she becomes one of his wives.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 9:19:54 GMT -5
Badly muddied waters here, oh my. And folks here seem to also need to have their minds renewed as to what constitutes a good wife according to GOD's ways. It is something more than most people know.
Anyway I will just post this just in case, though I doubt it will mean much to anyone here since you are intent on explaining away God's word in order to try and make it conform to your own wrong-headed ideas:
1Sa 25:39 And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: for the LORD hath returned the wickedness of Nabal upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife.
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Post by solid on Jan 17, 2020 9:24:56 GMT -5
Badly muddied waters here, oh my. And folks here seem to also need to have their minds renewed as to what constitutes a good wife according to GOD's ways. It is something more than most people know. Anyway I will just post this just in case, though I doubt it will mean much to anyone here since you are intent on explaining away God's word in order to try and make it conform to your own wrong-headed ideas: 1Sa 25:39 And when David heard that Nabal was dead, he said, Blessed be the LORD, that hath pleaded the cause of my reproach from the hand of Nabal, and hath kept his servant from evil: for the LORD hath returned the wickedness of Nabal upon his own head. And David sent and communed with Abigail, to take her to him to wife. It is obvious to just about everyone that you are the one who is in denial and trying to explain away God's word to push an agenda. Everything you are teaching on this subject is false.
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Post by Julie on Jan 17, 2020 9:33:49 GMT -5
I thank those who took time to answer my questions, but this is getting silly. Everyone sees that the curse is still here. Everyone sees that the person going by Watchful is pushing beliefs that don't make sense. Abigail did nothing wrong, but as an example of a good wife? Seriously? I would just quit while I was behind if I was Watchful, because it is so obvious what she is teaching is wrong! I want it to be right that the curse is gone, but not so much because of husbands and wives, because I don't mind my husband being the head. I just like the idea of an end to sickness and death and the curse. Clearly, it isn't gone. Clearly, she has no real answers. Sorry if I am coming across as mean, but it hurts my head reading this nonsense.
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Post by Rejoice on Jan 17, 2020 9:47:40 GMT -5
I read the Abigail story to see what it is about. I don't think it was making a point about wives, but it was telling a story about things that happened. This does cause me to wonder about something. David took Abigail to be his wife, even though he was married to other women at the time. Does that mean God is ok with a man having more than one wife?
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 10:23:02 GMT -5
Carnal mind can't perceive the things of the SPIRIT. People just don't grow very far in the churches....they are in part what Jesus was talking about not hiding the light under a bushel...low ceilings and domed roofs of the institutional churches. Come out of her my people, the scripture says. Time is running out and judgment is beginning with His house.
There is a lot of deafness here unfortunately to things that are not complicated. I recall Jesus rebuking folks for being slow and dull of hearing, not to mention those who were misunderstanding and twisting His words and accusing Him falsely. It shouldn't be hard to hear that Jesus was saying the very opposite of the curse in his teaching about the sparrows and lilies, not hard at all if anyone is leaning not on their own understanding. ARISE, shine and Christ will give thee LIGHT.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2020 11:09:55 GMT -5
Time is running out to buy the extra oil we need for our lamps to SEE by. The door to the wedding is going to be shut soon. I wonder how many realize that truth is something that needs to be bought....ie, we pay a price for it. "Buy the truth, but sell it not." "You who have no money come buy and eat."
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