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Post by John on Feb 25, 2020 17:39:00 GMT -5
Just doing the best I can with what I am given or shown in the moment brother.....I don't always have time or energy to defend and expound and dissect every word I say and answer every question. This is sometimes warfare and speaking my simple testimony of how the Lord is showing me a thing. I just do what I can. God gives me a hand grenade against the enemy and I just throw it, I don't always know what it is made of and how all it's parts work. You are actually claiming that God is giving you hand grenades? That is what you are calling what you are saying? I will agree with the term hand grenade, but I agree with Solid that they are not coming from God. You are literally telling everyone that God directs people to violate His written Word, and you give examples of how He supposedly does that and call it expanding our faith. When people are quoting scripture that shows you said something wrong, you call the Word of God dead letters and their use of New Testament scripture legalistic, and being a Judaiser. You further accuse God's Word of killing. The Holy Bible is not dead letters, and following New Testament scripture as written doesn't kill. It is following the Law of Moses to try to save yourself that kills. You have some very mixed up theology, but it is all centered around a disdain for authority and any absolutes.
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2020 17:40:34 GMT -5
I do want to make one thing clear. I do believe that the Catholic Church is bad news, and none of us should have anything to do with it or the Pope. I also agree with those who say we should not listen to any Protestant preacher that says we need to unite with the RCC. Pope Francis is no hero of mine!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 18:08:20 GMT -5
It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! Interesting that is the exact accusation Rome uses as well, to keep their people from leaving "the church". Religion is all about manipulation, guilt, power and control, in order to take and keep people CAPTIVE. Who has ears to hear let him hear. This is what this firestorm is about....all because I said who has ears to hear let him hear. Look at my previous post which Solid was replying to.....it is because of my previous post that I said who has ears let him hear. My previous post was being refuted with an accusation of self-will and doing what seems right in one's own eyes. Whether this will help or not, I'm doubtful. yesterday at 7:53am watchful said: LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 18:26:34 GMT -5
Do you have proof that Rome used that argument, because it sounds made up to me? I do . but let us be on guard for others also use this , not saying watchful as also a means to do evil . But yes I got all proof. the Pharisees did this too . they used precepts of men to HAVE CONTROL over the people , they omitted some things in order to GAIN the power over the peoples . ROME DID TOO . She taught all these traditions and got all the hopes away from all things written , BY downplaying the dire importance of said scriptures and invented all sorts of things and traditions which kept people trapped and in fear , and they , the leaders made that on purpose , as a means to CONTROL. TELL the people its too hard for you , you cant understand it , BUT HERE we can help guide you , AND YOU GOT THEM right where YOU WANT THEM . PS , ROME aint the only one doingthis , I SEE It all over our own churches too . TOUCH NOT GODS ANNOINTED . OH YOU NEED HERMEUNITICS TO UNDERSTAND HERE let us wise ones guide you . THEY are manipulators of men for their own gain . AND HOW it works on many . THEY got them so manipulated now , that more and more are even looking to their new SAVOIR , a NEW SYSTEM , an all inclusive answer for all the ills and to have peace and unity . YET , again the real agenda is not this at all , ITS ALL ABOUT POWER and MANIPULATION . OH YES , the chameleon is at work again . And she too will use the very words I just did , she too will say things like its power and manipuilation , but look at how they use that . THEY say cliniging to the bible or reminding folks to be heares and doers , IS MANIPULATION , WHEN ITS NOT , ITS CALLED HELPING to GUIDE the lambs by the power of the SPIRIT . THEY slick my friend . THEY ARE SLICK . but lambs heed them not . Lambs follow only ………………….THE LAMB Yes exactly, it IS all over the churches and has been for a very long time. The problem isn't Rome per se, the problem is the flesh, as Giller was bringing out on the other thread. I will sometimes use and point to the example of Rome when I'm trying to make a point about the flesh and carnal mind, pointing out a similarity because people or churches may be aware of Rome but not always aware of themselves because it is so sly and subtle.
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Dezi
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Post by Dezi on Feb 25, 2020 18:29:18 GMT -5
There is no more physical altar mentioned in the new testament, that we go by, so if that is the case, and it mentions only the heavenly altar, then should we not go by that? Should we not rather fear the Lord, instead of taking a chance in saying something that is not in there? What ever happened to reverencing the Lord in all things, and being careful not to add or take away from his word? We need to fear him. But I do thank God that our prayers do reach heaven and his heavenly altar. When we pray we come before his heavenly altar. I know I just want to fear him, and not add anything to what he says, even if I do not understand why, who cares about me or any pride that may arise, let it die. I sure appreciate your teachings that I learn from and I appreciate you putting away your pride to do so!
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2020 18:30:00 GMT -5
This message is false. The Apostles did refer to themselves as being Apostles. These videos are attacking men of God to defend their lawlessness. I don't receive any of it! LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. The problem is, this controversy did not start there. It started here, with this accusation. He came against the message in the videos, (and you watchful did not even post them, so he wasn't directing this at you) and you turned it around to make out like he and those who do not agree with the videos are promoting lawlessness by holding to what you call our own methods, formulas and ideas. You further mentioned this as quenching the Spirit and finished up with that comment about God's longsuffering and about how it is coming to an end. This is where it really began, so it has been one confrontational post after another between you and Solid. But this is where it began.
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2020 18:31:06 GMT -5
There is no more physical altar mentioned in the new testament, that we go by, so if that is the case, and it mentions only the heavenly altar, then should we not go by that? Should we not rather fear the Lord, instead of taking a chance in saying something that is not in there? What ever happened to reverencing the Lord in all things, and being careful not to add or take away from his word? We need to fear him. But I do thank God that our prayers do reach heaven and his heavenly altar. When we pray we come before his heavenly altar. I know I just want to fear him, and not add anything to what he says, even if I do not understand why, who cares about me or any pride that may arise, let it die. I sure appreciate your teachings that I learn from and I appreciate you putting away your pride to do so! I appreciate Giller's teachings too. He does a good job of research.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2020 18:32:56 GMT -5
Just doing the best I can with what I am given or shown in the moment brother.....I don't always have time or energy to defend and expound and dissect every word I say and answer every question. This is sometimes warfare and speaking my simple testimony of how the Lord is showing me a thing. I just do what I can. God gives me a hand grenade against the enemy and I just throw it, I don't always know what it is made of and how all it's parts work. You are actually claiming that God is giving you hand grenades? That is what you are calling what you are saying? I will agree with the term hand grenade, but I agree with Solid that they are not coming from God. You are literally telling everyone that God directs people to violate His written Word, and you give examples of how He supposedly does that and call it expanding our faith. When people are quoting scripture that shows you said something wrong, you call the Word of God dead letters and their use of New Testament scripture legalistic, and being a Judaiser. You further accuse God's Word of killing. The Holy Bible is not dead letters, and following New Testament scripture as written doesn't kill. It is following the Law of Moses to try to save yourself that kills. You have some very mixed up theology, but it is all centered around a disdain for authority and any absolutes.
It's just a metaphor brother, no need to get excited....sometimes when the Lord gives me a word or argument to use against something that is wrong and I am just a donkey that delivers the word, but can't always dissect it and tell you how it works or what it's made of, so to speak, when people start asking questions and demanding explanations and examples. And here you are twisting and misunderstanding what I have been saying once again but I am not going to pursue it.
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Post by John on Feb 25, 2020 18:36:50 GMT -5
You are actually claiming that God is giving you hand grenades? That is what you are calling what you are saying? I will agree with the term hand grenade, but I agree with Solid that they are not coming from God. You are literally telling everyone that God directs people to violate His written Word, and you give examples of how He supposedly does that and call it expanding our faith. When people are quoting scripture that shows you said something wrong, you call the Word of God dead letters and their use of New Testament scripture legalistic, and being a Judaiser. You further accuse God's Word of killing. The Holy Bible is not dead letters, and following New Testament scripture as written doesn't kill. It is following the Law of Moses to try to save yourself that kills. You have some very mixed up theology, but it is all centered around a disdain for authority and any absolutes.
It's just a metaphor brother, no need to get excited....sometimes when the Lord gives me a word or argument to use against something that is wrong and I am just a donkey that delivers the word, but can't always dissect it and tell you how it works or what it's made of, so to speak, when people start asking questions and demanding explanations and examples. And here you are twisting and misunderstanding what I have been saying once again but I am not going to pursue it. But once again, here you are, claiming God gave you your reply to what you call false, and I do not believe God gave you those words. I see much of what you are teaching as false. In reality, you are claiming divine revelation and that you are speaking as a prophet. That is what a prophet does, is deliver words directly from God.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 11:29:03 GMT -5
There is no more physical altar mentioned in the new testament, that we go by, so if that is the case, and it mentions only the heavenly altar, then should we not go by that? Should we not rather fear the Lord, instead of taking a chance in saying something that is not in there? What ever happened to reverencing the Lord in all things, and being careful not to add or take away from his word? We need to fear him. But I do thank God that our prayers do reach heaven and his heavenly altar. When we pray we come before his heavenly altar. I know I just want to fear him, and not add anything to what he says, even if I do not understand why, who cares about me or any pride that may arise, let it die. It is not about adding to the Word. It is about using the proper English word to describe something. A place of sacrifice is an altar. It is like the word throne. We all recognize that there is a throne in Heaven, where God dwells. That doesn't mean that the chair on which an earthly King sits suddenly cannot be called a throne. What else are you going to call it?
I totally understand what you are saying on the throne aspect, and on this aspect, I would agree with you, and just to say, even in the bible it mentions physical thrones, such as pharaoh's throne. There are many English words I use that are not in the bible, and words in and of themselves are not wrong. I am 100% aware of this. And whatever name they put on their building that is them, that itself I leave alone. You mention what can we call a building that one gathers at, how about a building. Or a meeting place. Why don't people call a house a church, or a beach a church, or gathering under a bridge a church??? God's definition of church is the people. When we do not go by what the word says, it can bring in a little leaven, and when you open the door to things, it can bring in other things. Such as focusing more on the building being the church, rather than the people, and then the building itself can become and idol, looked at with splendor, and then a different gospel can come in, such as the go to church thing, and for some that is their gospel, they do not preach Christ and him crucified, but rather the go to church gospel. Although there are other factors that contribute to this gospel such as making an idol out of the preacher, and thus they will tell people to go to church, so just to hear the preacher, and people who have been Christians for years say these things, not just some who has just come in, which I would more understand. But a little leaven can, leaven the whole lump, even if it seems innocent at times.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 11:35:13 GMT -5
What I mean by this saying:" And many even look to going to church as some type of works salvation, some really do so." It is not that we should not gather together, but some actually look towards this as this saving them, rather than the cross. If you want to get technical, you can turn a cross into an idol, just like the brazen serpent was turned into an idol by the people. You can turn a picture of Jesus on the wall into an idol. We look to Jesus to save us.
Oh yes you can turn a cross into an idol, that is for sure, but I know you know what I mean by preaching the cross, which I am pointing to what Jesus did on that cross. We are saved through Jesus, and by what he done on the cross, and through his resurrection, for we needed him as our sacrifice, to pay the sin debt for us.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 11:44:06 GMT -5
Let us go specifically by what the word says, not adding or taking away from it, and let us fear him in that way also. This to me is certainly not worth having a big division over, but here is how I view the use of the word altar. There is an altar in heaven. Nobody is denying that. It is scriptural, as you have proven. That does not mean it is the only altar that exists anywhere. The Bible never makes such a claim. Altar simply means a place where a sacrifice is made, so to me, if I kneel before my bedside and lay down a habit, I made my bed an altar at that moment. If a building where a church service is held has a place where people come, kneel down, and give up sins and die to self, that to me is an altar. It is not the supreme altar in heaven, but it has been made an altar.
As for the church, we all know that the church itself is the congregation. But again, we have language, that changes over the years. Church is something that has come to be known, not only as a congregation, but also as a building. It is necessary to call a building a church so it can be identified. I do not see this as a problem at all. What is the alternative? Instead of calling it First Christian Church, we change the sign and say, "Meeting Place For The Congregation That Calls Themselves First Christian Church?" We call the building a church to identify it, not to make it an idol.
Do people create doctrines that are false, centered around the church building and altar? Of course they do. They come up with man-made teachings that unless we are part of an official church in an approved building, we are not really part of a church. We are told that things like church hopping is a sin. We are told that you must tithe only to your local church, and this is now the storehouse. All that is a pack of lies. It is to keep people under their dominion so they keep members coming back, and tithes and offerings coming in. That does not mean that we are going against the Word, to call a building where a congregation meets a church or the place where the congregation prays an altar.
If you want to view altar in that way, well that is up to you. All I know is that this is what it says in Hebrews: Heb 8:4-5 (4) For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law: (5) Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount. Under the old covenant, there was physical altars, a physical temple and so on, but now there are no more physical altars, or a physical temple that is of God, they were shadows of heavenly things, and now we just have the heavenly altar, now in the millennial reign there will be back a physical temple, but not right now. And of course today there are heathenistic temples, but no physical temple for God to dwell in, for he dwells in temples of flesh now, which are men, who have given their lives to Christ. So I guess there is not much more to say on this.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 12:02:12 GMT -5
Of course there are heathen temples and heathen altars, which they are real temples and altars, but they are temples and altars that God does not approve of.
And the only temple that God approves of today, is the church being the temple of the Holy Ghost.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 12:24:38 GMT -5
God did approve at one time a physical temple under Old covenant times, for he told them to make one, but right now he no longer approves of of a physical temple, for we are the temple of the Holy Ghost.
If the heathen want to call things such and such that is them, and that is their things, but concerning God's things, let us seek the God's stamp of approval.
God approved.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 26, 2020 12:43:54 GMT -5
I think I get what John and Giller are saying, but when we come to the place where we are worrying over whether it is right to call a building a church, and a place you kneel to pray an altar, out of fear it could lead some to sin, aren't we acting like the religious leaders who created traditions so people wouldn't violate the Sabbath Day? For me, the reason you don't call the beach where you meet a church or a house a church is because it is either not a permanent meeting place or it is not it's sole purpose.
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