777
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Post by 777 on Feb 26, 2020 12:55:14 GMT -5
This example just came to mind. A building is a building. What it is used for determines what we call it. Lets say I used the argument that the place I buy groceries shouldn't be called a grocery store, because the groceries make it a grocery store. It should be called the building where I go to buy food. I have seen a grocery store move out, and say a Karate School move in. The teachers and students are the Karate School, so why call the building a school, and not the place where students and teachers meet? I think that is the point John is making. We call a building what we call it based on how it is used.
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777
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Post by 777 on Feb 26, 2020 13:04:32 GMT -5
There is an easy fix to this, so that we don't cause those who are offended by these words to stumble. Change the sign on the building a congregation owns to say "Church of Jesus Christ Meets Here" instead of "Church of Jesus Christ." Stop having an altar call, and just invite people to the front to pray. If something like this causes a brother or sister to stumble, it's not worth holding onto.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 13:33:22 GMT -5
This example just came to mind. A building is a building. What it is used for determines what we call it. Lets say I used the argument that the place I buy groceries shouldn't be called a grocery store, because the groceries make it a grocery store. It should be called the building where I go to buy food. I have seen a grocery store move out, and say a Karate School move in. The teachers and students are the Karate School, so why call the building a school, and not the place where students and teachers meet? I think that is the point John is making. We call a building what we call it based on how it is used. To me it's totally different than this, grocery stores have nothing to do with it, it is about seeing the things of God being called the things that God calls them. It is seeing things God's way, and accepting it. And I think the example of pharisees adding their traditions to the Sabbath has nothing to do with this issue, the pharisee's traditions were against God's ways, this is not the case here, here it is seeking to just acknowledge what God says.
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777
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Post by 777 on Feb 26, 2020 13:42:32 GMT -5
This example just came to mind. A building is a building. What it is used for determines what we call it. Lets say I used the argument that the place I buy groceries shouldn't be called a grocery store, because the groceries make it a grocery store. It should be called the building where I go to buy food. I have seen a grocery store move out, and say a Karate School move in. The teachers and students are the Karate School, so why call the building a school, and not the place where students and teachers meet? I think that is the point John is making. We call a building what we call it based on how it is used. To me it's totally different than this, grocery stores have nothing to do with it, it is about seeing the things of God being called the things that God calls them. It is seeing things God's way, and accepting it. And I think the example of pharisees adding their traditions to the Sabbath has nothing to do with this issue, the pharisee's traditions were against God's ways, this is not the case here, here it is seeking to just acknowledge what God says. I'm just saying that we call a building what we do based on who owns it and how it is used. Does the solution I gave fix the problem for you?
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 13:52:59 GMT -5
To me it's totally different than this, grocery stores have nothing to do with it, it is about seeing the things of God being called the things that God calls them. It is seeing things God's way, and accepting it. And I think the example of pharisees adding their traditions to the Sabbath has nothing to do with this issue, the pharisee's traditions were against God's ways, this is not the case here, here it is seeking to just acknowledge what God says. I'm just saying that we call a building what we do based on who owns it and how it is used. Does the solution I gave fix the problem for you?I see what you are saying on the fix. But I agree with grocery stores, schools and so on, but I do not agree with using these arguments so to prove that we should associate the building as the church, which the bible does not. I find the arguments you presented is more like circular reasoning rather than going by what the bible says. And if you want to continue to call a building a church that is you, I would rather go by the counsel of what God says. And I am not offended like you probably think, but anyhow I do not agree with the stumbling argument you are using, to me it seems to be used just so to elevate your view. But anyhow I love you in the Lord, God is good, let us stick to scripture. And your fix is reasonable.
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777
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Post by 777 on Feb 26, 2020 14:08:08 GMT -5
I'm just saying that we call a building what we do based on who owns it and how it is used. Does the solution I gave fix the problem for you? I see what you are saying on the fix. But I agree with grocery stores, schools and so on, but I do not agree with using these arguments so to prove that we should associate the building as the church, which the bible does not. I find the arguments you presented is more like circular reasoning rather than going by what the bible says. And if you want to continue to call a building a church that is you, I would rather go by the counsel of what God says. And I am not offended like you probably think, but anyhow I do not agree with the stumbling argument you are using, to me it seems to be used just so to elevate your view. But anyhow I love you in the Lord, God is good, let us stick to scripture. And your fix is reasonable. I don't have my own church, and I doubt my Pastor is going to make changes like that because none of us care, but I would keep this in mind if I ever felt like I needed to form a church. I may ask my Pastor about it tonight. But I don't know of any scripture that forbids us to call a building a church, so I don't see anything wrong with it. You need a name for your church bank account and things like that. You need a name for the deed to the land. I just see this as an unnecessary complication, when God isn't saying it is sinful.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 14:24:23 GMT -5
I see what you are saying on the fix. But I agree with grocery stores, schools and so on, but I do not agree with using these arguments so to prove that we should associate the building as the church, which the bible does not. I find the arguments you presented is more like circular reasoning rather than going by what the bible says. And if you want to continue to call a building a church that is you, I would rather go by the counsel of what God says. And I am not offended like you probably think, but anyhow I do not agree with the stumbling argument you are using, to me it seems to be used just so to elevate your view. But anyhow I love you in the Lord, God is good, let us stick to scripture. And your fix is reasonable. I don't have my own church, and I doubt my Pastor is going to make changes like that because none of us care, but I would keep this in mind if I ever felt like I needed to form a church. I may ask my Pastor about it tonight. But I don't know of any scripture that forbids us to call a building a church, so I don't see anything wrong with it. You need a name for your church bank account and things like that. You need a name for the deed to the land. I just see this as an unnecessary complication, when God isn't saying it is sinful. Anywhos I will just leave it at that, and I understand what you are saying, but maybe we should look into the pattern that the bible set up, for how the church should be set up, at some point, or in some other thread. Love you in the Lord, but right now I am looking into the words shed and sprinkle, I think you will find it interesting what I have found.
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Post by Giller on Feb 26, 2020 14:50:06 GMT -5
Luk 22:20 (20) Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
Here is the Greek definition of the word shed, mentioned in Luke 22:20:
(Strong's concordance)
(G1632 ἐκχέω, ἐκχύνω ekcheō ekchunō ek-kheh'-o, ek-khoo'-no
From G1537 and χέω cheō (to pour); to pour forth; figuratively to bestow: - gush (pour) out, run greedily (out), shed (abroad, forth), spill. Total KJV occurrences: 28)
To shed is not just a little amount of blood, but a gushing out of blood, a pouring out of blood.
Now we get to the word sprinkled:
Exo 24:5-8 (5) And he sent young men of the children of Israel, which offered burnt offerings, and sacrificed peace offerings of oxen unto the LORD. (6) And Moses took half of the blood, and put it in basons; and half of the blood he sprinkled on the altar. (7) And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient. (8) And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words.
The word sprinkled here means:
(Strong's concordance)
(H2236 זָרַק zâraq zaw-rak'
A primitive root; to sprinkle (fluid or solid particles): - be here and there, scatter, sprinkle, strew. Total KJV occurrences: 35)
Here is the Webster's definition of the word strew:
(Webster's dictionary)
(Strew
STREW, v.t. [This verb is written straw, strew, or strow; straw is nearly obsolete, and strow is obsolescent. Strew is generally used.] 1. To scatter; to spread by scattering; always applied to dry substances separable into parts or particles; as, to strew seed in beds; to strew sand on or over a floor; to strew flowers over a grave. 2. To spread by being scattered over.)
It is basically meaning the scattering of the blood somehow, it is not the pouring out of the blood , but the scattering of it, or taking some of it and spreading it somewhere else, or on something, in some fashion or way.
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Post by frienduff on Feb 26, 2020 15:06:44 GMT -5
Its going to far . for all that is good and holy lets hold the reigns of that horse back . EVEN paul knew a place where folks met was called a church . Wherever folks meet to honor the LORD that is church . and its not a sin to say house church or I am going to church and that church be a place where beleivers meet . Lets just hold the reigns and not go too far in one direction . NOW it is good that giller and some are REMINDING US that in truth the alter is in heaven . Because it is . Its not a specific place on earth . NOPE its in heaven . Just lets not go too far in one direction. cause its not a sin to call a place where we meet a church . SO LONG as we know ITS WE WHO are the church and that is just a place we take shelter in as we meet . if we go too far in one direction we gonna go to extremes . LETS focus on WHAT IS TAUGHT at those churches . and if it is false , FOCUS ON GETTING OUT OF THE DOOR , but if its good , meet and praise the LORD .
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 17:30:18 GMT -5
My thought on this is that I think it's really important that we get hold of the right mindset and that's what Giller is trying to help us with here. I seem to remember some groups calling the place where they gathered a meeting house, or something simple like that, and to me that is much more in keeping with the simplicity of Christ, rather than "church", which in my mind at least has the effect of setting up a 'religious'construct...which I believe is something we should avoid like the plague, since that is a departure from the simplicity of Christ and a cause of SO MUCH that is wrong. It's the mindset that is so important...having the spiritual mind of Christ for these things.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2020 18:02:46 GMT -5
It is not about adding to the Word. It is about using the proper English word to describe something. A place of sacrifice is an altar. It is like the word throne. We all recognize that there is a throne in Heaven, where God dwells. That doesn't mean that the chair on which an earthly King sits suddenly cannot be called a throne. What else are you going to call it?
I totally understand what you are saying on the throne aspect, and on this aspect, I would agree with you, and just to say, even in the bible it mentions physical thrones, such as pharaoh's throne. There are many English words I use that are not in the bible, and words in and of themselves are not wrong. I am 100% aware of this. And whatever name they put on their building that is them, that itself I leave alone. You mention what can we call a building that one gathers at, how about a building. Or a meeting place. Why don't people call a house a church, or a beach a church, or gathering under a bridge a church??? God's definition of church is the people. When we do not go by what the word says, it can bring in a little leaven, and when you open the door to things, it can bring in other things. Such as focusing more on the building being the church, rather than the people, and then the building itself can become and idol, looked at with splendor, and then a different gospel can come in, such as the go to church thing, and for some that is their gospel, they do not preach Christ and him crucified, but rather the go to church gospel. Although there are other factors that contribute to this gospel such as making an idol out of the preacher, and thus they will tell people to go to church, so just to hear the preacher, and people who have been Christians for years say these things, not just some who has just come in, which I would more understand. But a little leaven can, leaven the whole lump, even if it seems innocent at times. The reason you can't just call it the building, is because if someone is looking for the First Methodist Church, how will they recognize it if all it says on the sign is, "The Building?" The reason why we call the building a name is so people will recognize it. There is nothing more to it than that. It is different when you are talking about a permanent meeting place, as opposed to gathering under a bridge or on the beach or in a house. The congregation doesn't own those places, and even if one member owns the home they meet in, it is still not exclusively the church. It is someone's house. It is just different.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2020 18:15:31 GMT -5
There is an easy fix to this, so that we don't cause those who are offended by these words to stumble. Change the sign on the building a congregation owns to say "Church of Jesus Christ Meets Here" instead of "Church of Jesus Christ." Stop having an altar call, and just invite people to the front to pray. If something like this causes a brother or sister to stumble, it's not worth holding onto. Yes, we could do that, and I could stop calling the place where people kneel to pray in the front of the church an altar. I could just call people to the front, if I was Pastor of a physical church, and I suppose I could tell them they can kneel on the padded boards. If it was a matter of not offending someone, sure I could do that. But I really don't want to stop calling the building a church, and I will tell you why.
I do see a church building as a holy place. I see it as a place that is set apart for worship. It is a place we keep clean. That is not to say that we want to allow sin anywhere, but the sanctuary is special to me. We do not have secular music playing there. We do not allow drinking there, even in moderation or watching sports on television. We do not do things that are carnal in nature there. It is set apart for church services.
I have seen the damage that attacking the church building has done over the years. People have promoted the idea that the building is nothing special, and if the congregation wasn't there, it could just as easily be a Moose Lodge. That has led to this come as you are mess, where people come to church with jeans with holes in them, shorts, anything, seeing this place of meeting with God as a group as nothing special at all. I don't want that trend to continue. I do want us to have reverence for the church, and especially the sanctuary. I choose to continue to call this a church, and see it as a place to be respectful of out of fear of God, not because I don't fear God.
So 777, I appreciate what you are suggesting, and it would take away the charge that we are not Biblical in calling the building a church and the front where people pray an altar, but it also leads to things I do not like, this casual attitude about the place of corporate worship of God.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2020 18:18:01 GMT -5
I don't have my own church, and I doubt my Pastor is going to make changes like that because none of us care, but I would keep this in mind if I ever felt like I needed to form a church. I may ask my Pastor about it tonight. But I don't know of any scripture that forbids us to call a building a church, so I don't see anything wrong with it. You need a name for your church bank account and things like that. You need a name for the deed to the land. I just see this as an unnecessary complication, when God isn't saying it is sinful. Anywhos I will just leave it at that, and I understand what you are saying, but maybe we should look into the pattern that the bible set up, for how the church should be set up, at some point, or in some other thread. Love you in the Lord, but right now I am looking into the words shed and sprinkle, I think you will find it interesting what I have found. I look forward to seeing what you have to say on this subject.
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Post by John on Feb 26, 2020 18:26:18 GMT -5
My thought on this is that I think it's really important that we get hold of the right mindset and that's what Giller is trying to help us with here. I seem to remember some groups calling the place where they gathered a meeting house, or something simple like that, and to me that is much more in keeping with the simplicity of Christ, rather than "church", which in my mind at least has the effect of setting up a 'religious'construct...which I believe is something we should avoid like the plague, since that is a departure from the simplicity of Christ and a cause of SO MUCH that is wrong. It's the mindset that is so important...having the spiritual mind of Christ for these things. I want to ask you a couple of questions.
1. What exactly is wrong with a "religious construct?" What does that even mean to you?
2. What is wrong with organized religion? The reason I ask this is because if you have any church, even in your home, and you invite people to come at a certain time, and come up with a Bible Study lesson or sermon, and hymns to sing, you have organized religion.
I do see problems in the majority of churches today. They have gone away from the truth of God's Word, and I do have a problem with the attack on house churches. A house church is 100 percent Biblical. But it seems like we have a war going on between house churches and churches that meet in a building they own. Why? How about we focus on what matters, when they are preaching false doctrine, and stop worrying over where they meet and the name on the building? We are too divided over the wrong things. We have to stand against the all inclusive mess, and we have to stand against those who teach us heresies like OSAS or promote gay marriage and things like that, but to divide over where we meet and what we call the place to me is going way too far.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2020 19:07:20 GMT -5
My thought on this is that I think it's really important that we get hold of the right mindset and that's what Giller is trying to help us with here. I seem to remember some groups calling the place where they gathered a meeting house, or something simple like that, and to me that is much more in keeping with the simplicity of Christ, rather than "church", which in my mind at least has the effect of setting up a 'religious'construct...which I believe is something we should avoid like the plague, since that is a departure from the simplicity of Christ and a cause of SO MUCH that is wrong. It's the mindset that is so important...having the spiritual mind of Christ for these things. I want to ask you a couple of questions.
1. What exactly is wrong with a "religious construct?" What does that even mean to you?
2. What is wrong with organized religion? The reason I ask this is because if you have any church, even in your home, and you invite people to come at a certain time, and come up with a Bible Study lesson or sermon, and hymns to sing, you have organized religion.
I do see problems in the majority of churches today. They have gone away from the truth of God's Word, and I do have a problem with the attack on house churches. A house church is 100 percent Biblical. But it seems like we have a war going on between house churches and churches that meet in a building they own. Why? How about we focus on what matters, when they are preaching false doctrine, and stop worrying over where they meet and the name on the building? We are too divided over the wrong things. We have to stand against the all inclusive mess, and we have to stand against those who teach us heresies like OSAS or promote gay marriage and things like that, but to divide over where we meet and what we call the place to me is going way too far.
Departing from the simplicity of Christ brings man's religion rather than the new and living Way that He brought. But I don't really know at this moment how to "explain" the simplicity of Christ. Maybe the Lord will help me with that sometime. The problem to me, is whether we are in the flesh or in the spirit, that's the bottom line......man's 'religion' and religious concepts (constructs) are of the flesh and carnal mind. The flesh wars against the Spirit and the carnal mind is enmity with God.....so that sure is divisive right there without even trying, and why it's so important to grow and learn to be in the Spirit, and also since they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
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