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Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 5:42:58 GMT -5
The Bible never says you must continue in willful sin for a long time to be lost. If you hit your finger and curse, that is not pre-meditated, and a real Christian would immediately repent of cursing. What about the chastisement and rebuke of the Lord?
Hebrews 12:5-10 King James Version 5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
My thought is that if we immediately lost our salvation upon willfully sinning, there would be no period of time where we receive chastisement and rebuke from the Lord.
But if we can go through discipline, doesn't that mean we are still saved during that process?Amen, that's an excellent point. Jesus said He would never leave us nor forsake us. If we have fallen away every time a bad thought pops into our head or we have a moment of weakness in some area, or if we sin unknowingly, then He would have forsaken most of us quite a few times by now and some are even still forsaken and fallen away from the faith for having sinned in ignorance...since they haven't repented if they aren't even aware that they sinned. But some are forgetting that the Lord is looking at the long game and the end game...He knows the end from the beginning and His judgments or choices or decisions are based on knowledge that we are not privy to. And what Satan means for evil, God means for our good. (Just to mention as an aside also, that chastisements are not just due to outward sins, but they are for the purpose of purging and purifying the heart....crucifying our old man fleshly nature to the death....refining the saints, buying gold refined in the fire....gold being an allegory for the character and nature of Jesus/God. The fellowship of His sufferings is for the purpose of making us more like Him.)
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Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 5:55:27 GMT -5
There is one thing I wanted to add to this concerning Jesus' warning to Peter before the denial. It is from Luke 22:31-32
And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.
Notice that Jesus tells Peter that a time will come where he will be converted. Jesus knows the end of all things. He knew Peter would deny Him, and that at that time, his heart was not right, but He also knew that in the end, Peter would be converted.
Not sure we can judge Peter's heart here brother....Jesus said just a little while earlier that the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. Converted is another word for repent (which means to turn around). Yes, strengthen his brethren with the strength he himself was going to receive, once he knew he needed it.
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Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 6:10:37 GMT -5
There's a difference between willful sins and non-willful sins, surely. And even with willful sins one has to "keep on" willfuly sinning to be an apostate, having fallen away into a lifestyle of sin. Let's say someone hits their thumb with a hammer and inadvertently uses a swear word, have they fallen away from the faith? That is hard to fathom. Sister talk about apples and oranges . Rest assured if an accident has ever slipped out of the mouth of a lamb , IT gets convicted . and it repents asap of that . . Our mission is to remind the church to GO and sin no more , and if one does err , confess and repent . This is all we need to do . just keep it that simple . Sister . you gotta sound like paul , so do i , or like JESUS , or like john or peter , or jude . I never seen scenarios from them , THEY just simply remind TO DO and NOT TO DO . we must too . Jesus gave us His word for us to learn from. Why was it recorded that Jesus said Satan desired to sift Peter, and why was it written that Jesus prayed that Peter's faith not fail..? To learn and glean and grow. Nothing is written by accident...there are no idle word sin the bible. My purpose with this was just to encourage us to grow and learn. Why is that so important....because the better we know the Lord the more we will be like Him. People become like the God they worship. I believe it's false doctrine to say that one has fallen away from the faith on the basis of one sin or error or false prophecy for that matter....but don't worry to the point of losing hope, brother I don't believe the Lord has forsaken anyone here. A good Father doesn't forsake his children when they err, if their heart is right, he corrects them and does all he can to teach and help and encourage his offspring to learn and grow. Anyway, that's all I wanted to do and have done it, so I'm done here. Bless you.
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 7:07:09 GMT -5
Sister talk about apples and oranges . Rest assured if an accident has ever slipped out of the mouth of a lamb , IT gets convicted . and it repents asap of that . . Our mission is to remind the church to GO and sin no more , and if one does err , confess and repent . This is all we need to do . just keep it that simple . Sister . you gotta sound like paul , so do i , or like JESUS , or like john or peter , or jude . I never seen scenarios from them , THEY just simply remind TO DO and NOT TO DO . we must too . Jesus gave us His word for us to learn from. Why was it recorded that Jesus said Satan desired to sift Peter, and why was it written that Jesus prayed that Peter's faith not fail..? To learn and glean and grow. Nothing is written by accident...there are no idle word sin the bible. My purpose with this was just to encourage us to grow and learn. Why is that so important....because the better we know the Lord the more we will be like Him. People become like the God they worship. I believe it's false doctrine to say that one has fallen away from the faith on the basis of one sin or error or false prophecy for that matter....but don't worry to the point of losing hope, brother I don't believe the Lord has forsaken anyone here. A good Father doesn't forsake his children when they err, if their heart is right, he corrects them and does all he can to teach and help and encourage his offspring to learn and grow. Anyway, that's all I wanted to do and have done it, so I'm done here. Bless you. There is no scriptural basis to claim that we cannot lose salvation from a single sin, and I can prove that you can. The proof is the unpardonable sin. Regardless of that, Jesus states plainly that if we deny him, he will deny us. He states plainly that if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. Either he is being truthful or he is not. I believe it is false doctrine to take positions contrary to what Jesus and the Bible says, based only on our feelings.
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Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 7:59:19 GMT -5
There's a difference between willful sins and non-willful sins, surely. And even with willful sins one has to "keep on" willfuly sinning to be an apostate, having fallen away into a lifestyle of sin. Let's say someone hits their thumb with a hammer and inadvertently uses a swear word, have they fallen away from the faith? That is hard to fathom. The Bible never says you must continue in willful sin for a long time to be lost. If you hit your finger and curse, that is not pre-meditated, and a real Christian would immediately repent of cursing. I'm no scholar, but check out the grammatical tense of that verse...it's important. Otherwise it would be contradicting all the scriptures that talk about correcting and restoring one who errs.
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Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 8:20:19 GMT -5
Jesus gave us His word for us to learn from. Why was it recorded that Jesus said Satan desired to sift Peter, and why was it written that Jesus prayed that Peter's faith not fail..? To learn and glean and grow. Nothing is written by accident...there are no idle word sin the bible. My purpose with this was just to encourage us to grow and learn. Why is that so important....because the better we know the Lord the more we will be like Him. People become like the God they worship. I believe it's false doctrine to say that one has fallen away from the faith on the basis of one sin or error or false prophecy for that matter....but don't worry to the point of losing hope, brother I don't believe the Lord has forsaken anyone here. A good Father doesn't forsake his children when they err, if their heart is right, he corrects them and does all he can to teach and help and encourage his offspring to learn and grow. Anyway, that's all I wanted to do and have done it, so I'm done here. Bless you. There is no scriptural basis to claim that we cannot lose salvation from a single sin, and I can prove that you can. The proof is the unpardonable sin. Regardless of that, Jesus states plainly that if we deny him, he will deny us. He states plainly that if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. Either he is being truthful or he is not. I believe it is false doctrine to take positions contrary to what Jesus and the Bible says, based only on our feelings. Oh I'm not denying those scriptures one iota. What I brought was God's word, not feelings. I brought scriptures, I'm talking scripture. How can we not see that Peter's trial was akin to that of Job, a righteous man. Peter was prepared to defend Jesus with his life and sword against an entire mob just a little while earlier. From God's long-range vantage point Peter's test was for specific reasons, for one thing having to do with his calling....to strengthen him for it (and no his calling was not to be a Pope). It is not written that the others were tested the same way. Just things to consider. Anyhow I leave it with you, have a blessed day.
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 8:25:22 GMT -5
The Bible never says you must continue in willful sin for a long time to be lost. If you hit your finger and curse, that is not pre-meditated, and a real Christian would immediately repent of cursing. I'm no scholar, but check out the grammatical tense of that verse...it's important. Otherwise it would be contradicting all the scriptures that talk about correcting and restoring one who errs. There are not all those other scriptures that talk about correcting and restoring that say a single sin cannot cost you salvation. As a matter of fact, there are none. There are scriptures about restoring people, but those people are no longer going to heaven, and that is why they need restoration. There are also different types of sins. There are sins done in error and sins done on purpose. If you were correct, Jesus would be contradicting scripture saying he will not forgive us in certain cases and that he will deny us in certain cases, and we know that is not true. If you feel like there is a contradiction, feel free to post the scriptures you are referring to, and show how they contradict what I said and I will consider it.
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 8:30:18 GMT -5
There is no scriptural basis to claim that we cannot lose salvation from a single sin, and I can prove that you can. The proof is the unpardonable sin. Regardless of that, Jesus states plainly that if we deny him, he will deny us. He states plainly that if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. Either he is being truthful or he is not. I believe it is false doctrine to take positions contrary to what Jesus and the Bible says, based only on our feelings. Oh I'm not denying those scriptures one iota. What I brought was God's word, not feelings. I brought scriptures, I'm talking scripture. How can we not see that Peter's trial was akin to that of Job, a righteous man. Peter was prepared to defend Jesus with his life and sword against an entire mob just a little while earlier. From God's long-range vantage point Peter's test was for specific reasons, for one thing having to do with his calling....to strengthen him for it (and no his calling was not to be a Pope). It is not written that the others were tested the same way. Just things to consider. Anyhow I leave it with you, have a blessed day. There are no scriptures you brought or examples you gave that state that a person cannot lose salvation over a single sin. You are just using human logic in your comparison to Job. The Bible does not compare Peter to Job. The Bible never says that this was just a test, and that Peter remained saved, and the Bible does not say that Jesus did not deny Peter after that until his conversion. If the Bible came out and said that in anything you posted, I would admit you had a point regarding contradictions, but it never says anything close to that.
I will give you this. Jesus did know that Peter would ultimately be saved, and God was not going to let Peter die before his time. In that way, Peter was safe in the mind of God, but if he had died before getting right with God, he would not have made it into heaven. That is where we get a lot of the false OSAS teachings. People take verses dealing with God's foreknowledge and election and mix that up with unconditional grace, that does not exist.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:13:57 GMT -5
Sister talk about apples and oranges . Rest assured if an accident has ever slipped out of the mouth of a lamb , IT gets convicted . and it repents asap of that . . Our mission is to remind the church to GO and sin no more , and if one does err , confess and repent . This is all we need to do . just keep it that simple . Sister . you gotta sound like paul , so do i , or like JESUS , or like john or peter , or jude . I never seen scenarios from them , THEY just simply remind TO DO and NOT TO DO . we must too . Jesus gave us His word for us to learn from. Why was it recorded that Jesus said Satan desired to sift Peter, and why was it written that Jesus prayed that Peter's faith not fail..? To learn and glean and grow. Nothing is written by accident...there are no idle word sin the bible. My purpose with this was just to encourage us to grow and learn. Why is that so important....because the better we know the Lord the more we will be like Him. People become like the God they worship. I believe it's false doctrine to say that one has fallen away from the faith on the basis of one sin or error or false prophecy for that matter....but don't worry to the point of losing hope, brother I don't believe the Lord has forsaken anyone here. A good Father doesn't forsake his children when they err, if their heart is right, he corrects them and does all he can to teach and help and encourage his offspring to learn and grow. Anyway, that's all I wanted to do and have done it, so I'm done here. Bless you. He sure does sister . Just look at all the warnings He did give the seven churches . It was always repent or else . so be encouraged and let us go and do likewise when or if we see error . God has not forsaken any one here sister .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:14:51 GMT -5
The LORD is working on his lambs . YES HE IS . so let us all get those houses in order and if their is any error let it be ceased asap . Let the LORD be praised .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:19:14 GMT -5
Oh I'm not denying those scriptures one iota. What I brought was God's word, not feelings. I brought scriptures, I'm talking scripture. How can we not see that Peter's trial was akin to that of Job, a righteous man. Peter was prepared to defend Jesus with his life and sword against an entire mob just a little while earlier. From God's long-range vantage point Peter's test was for specific reasons, for one thing having to do with his calling....to strengthen him for it (and no his calling was not to be a Pope). It is not written that the others were tested the same way. Just things to consider. Anyhow I leave it with you, have a blessed day. There are no scriptures you brought or examples you gave that state that a person cannot lose salvation over a single sin. You are just using human logic in your comparison to Job. The Bible does not compare Peter to Job. The Bible never says that this was just a test, and that Peter remained saved, and the Bible does not say that Jesus did not deny Peter after that until his conversion. If the Bible came out and said that in anything you posted, I would admit you had a point regarding contradictions, but it never says anything close to that.
I will give you this. Jesus did know that Peter would ultimately be saved, and God was not going to let Peter die before his time. In that way, Peter was safe in the mind of God, but if he had died before getting right with God, he would not have made it into heaven. That is where we get a lot of the false OSAS teachings. People take verses dealing with God's foreknowledge and election and mix that up with unconditional grace, that does not exist. This is all we need to know . concerning sin and error . DONT do it and if one does , confess and forsake it asap . This is the appraoch we must simply have . Because as paul and others knew , sin can and it will harden a heart . Lest any be hardened through the decietfulness of sin . Whether or not everyone agrees on the details of peters failure is not of big concern . WHAT IS of big concern is , SIN itself . ALL we need to do is have the same mindset JESUS and the apostels did . SIN no more . Let it not once be named . If any does err , confess and repent . IF any sees error in another correct it asap . Because no matter what we think we might know , THE TRUTH IS , so long as one is in error , THEY ARE IN DIRE GRAVE DANGER . This is how simple we ought to keep it .
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 9:24:34 GMT -5
There are no scriptures you brought or examples you gave that state that a person cannot lose salvation over a single sin. You are just using human logic in your comparison to Job. The Bible does not compare Peter to Job. The Bible never says that this was just a test, and that Peter remained saved, and the Bible does not say that Jesus did not deny Peter after that until his conversion. If the Bible came out and said that in anything you posted, I would admit you had a point regarding contradictions, but it never says anything close to that.
I will give you this. Jesus did know that Peter would ultimately be saved, and God was not going to let Peter die before his time. In that way, Peter was safe in the mind of God, but if he had died before getting right with God, he would not have made it into heaven. That is where we get a lot of the false OSAS teachings. People take verses dealing with God's foreknowledge and election and mix that up with unconditional grace, that does not exist. This is all we need to know . concerning sin and error . DONT do it and if one does , confess and forsake it asap . This is the appraoch we must simply have . Because as paul and others knew , sin can and it will harden a heart . Lest any be hardened through the decietfulness of sin . Whether or not everyone agrees on the details of peters failure is not of big concern . WHAT IS of big concern is , SIN itself . ALL we need to do is have the same mindset JESUS and the apostels did . SIN no more . Let it not once be named . If any does err , confess and repent . IF any sees error in another correct it asap . Because no matter what we think we might know , THE TRUTH IS , so long as one is in error , THEY ARE IN DIRE GRAVE DANGER . This is how simple we ought to keep it . I will tell you the importance of this. It goes back to believing Jesus or not. Too many today will say Jesus said things He did not really mean, and that is alarming to me. I used the example of Peter to resonate with us, using a real life example we can relate to.
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Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:29:42 GMT -5
There is no scriptural basis to claim that we cannot lose salvation from a single sin, and I can prove that you can. The proof is the unpardonable sin. Regardless of that, Jesus states plainly that if we deny him, he will deny us. He states plainly that if we do not forgive, he will not forgive us. Either he is being truthful or he is not. I believe it is false doctrine to take positions contrary to what Jesus and the Bible says, based only on our feelings. Oh I'm not denying those scriptures one iota. What I brought was God's word, not feelings. I brought scriptures, I'm talking scripture. How can we not see that Peter's trial was akin to that of Job, a righteous man. Peter was prepared to defend Jesus with his life and sword against an entire mob just a little while earlier. From God's long-range vantage point Peter's test was for specific reasons, for one thing having to do with his calling....to strengthen him for it (and no his calling was not to be a Pope). It is not written that the others were tested the same way. Just things to consider. Anyhow I leave it with you, have a blessed day. Sister regardless of how one is viewing peters failure , the simple thing we need to know is what i just told john . Concering sin and error , let it not be named once as becometh saints . Two . Sin is deadly and dangerous and so long as one is in sin , they sure can become hardened to the point of no return . Sin can do that . SO , our approach to sin must be , Do not do it , if one does err confess ye your faults , forsake them and pray ye might be healed . When it comes to sin our appraoch ought to be the same approach and view GOD has on it . So lets examine the seven churches . he told of all the good they did , but any mention of the evil that was being done , the summation of GODS response is , REPENT OR ELSE . SO that must be ours too . Two things none of us should ever do . never give anyone a false hope , and never leave anyone without hope . meaning if error or sin is seen , never appraoch like these churches today do , either they ignore it and say DADDY GOD IS LOVE , HE understands , which is false hope . OR as few do , they stand afar off and never even try and correct , just cast them out or gossip about them . NEVER trying to really point them to CHRIST and offer up the HOPE n HIM . And i aint accusing anyone here of doing either . But when sin is made mention of , one thing i never SEEN JESUS DO , or the apostles , NOR GOD , nor the prophets , i never seen them come and try and encourage folks in a way that makes it seem as though one cannot lose salvation . THEY ALWAYS lightining fast corrected and the sum of it was repent or else . OH they gave hope , IN JESUS . AND JESUS is our example . Let us all be refreshed in HOW he dealt with error . IF they came to HIM all was forgiven , YET the words GO and SIN NO MORE always REMAINED forefront . Just be encouraged dear sister .
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Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:35:30 GMT -5
This is all we need to know . concerning sin and error . DONT do it and if one does , confess and forsake it asap . This is the appraoch we must simply have . Because as paul and others knew , sin can and it will harden a heart . Lest any be hardened through the decietfulness of sin . Whether or not everyone agrees on the details of peters failure is not of big concern . WHAT IS of big concern is , SIN itself . ALL we need to do is have the same mindset JESUS and the apostels did . SIN no more . Let it not once be named . If any does err , confess and repent . IF any sees error in another correct it asap . Because no matter what we think we might know , THE TRUTH IS , so long as one is in error , THEY ARE IN DIRE GRAVE DANGER . This is how simple we ought to keep it . I will tell you the importance of this. It goes back to believing Jesus or not. Too many today will say Jesus said things He did not really mean, and that is alarming to me. I used the example of Peter to resonate with us, using a real life example we can relate to.
I know you did my friend . But i am drawing us back to something even simplier . Something i am praying will sink deep into all hearts , even if we already know it . And that is , how should we approach sin and error . And the answer is , JUST LIKE the prophets did , GOD DID , JESUS who we KNOW WHO HE IS , did , and the apostels did and JESUS again to the seven churches DID . SIN was never taken lightly TO THEM at all . SIN is a killer that has hardened more hearts , clogged and stopped more hearts , that fat does a heart man . SIN IS that deadly . IT KILLS and its end IS DEATH . Thus as you know and others know , IF WE SEE IT , WE GOTTA do something , anything all things to correct any brother or sister in a sin . cause ITS THAT DEADLY . AND if we err the pattern is , RPENT asap , confess and forsake . Too many have long become of the mindset that sin is not really a big deal . BUT IT IS . THE END OF SIN IS DEATH . Not life , not life eternal , but death . And it sure can harden a heart , so long as that heart IS in it . WHEN we see a person in sin , or if we ourselves are found in sin WE NEED TO SEE IT AS , LIFE AND DEATH SERIOUS and REPENT asap from it . And the key is , FOLLOW THE SPIRIT , LEARNIN JESUS and the doctrine of HIS and of the apostels , VERY WELL .
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Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 9:40:45 GMT -5
I will make it simple frienduff. Let no one deny Jesus or He will deny us to the Father. Let no one be ashamed of Jesus or He will be ashamed of us. If we have been guilty REPENT.
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