|
Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:43:55 GMT -5
Follow the GREAT SHEPARD of the sheep . FOR HE has come to set the captives free FROM SIN and Death . HE IS LIFE and LIFE ETERNAL , AND In HIS FOOTSTEPS may all follow . HE will not and cannot lead us into darkness , BUT THE FLESH CAN . SO WATCH OUT . if we take off from heeding HIM , WE IN SERIOUS TROUBLE . and the flesh, it aint never gonna cease from trying to sway us in its direction . SO remind all to continously feast upon those bibles , to take HEED unto the SPIRIT and not the flesh . THE LORD is working on the lambs , but the lambs BETTER HEED HIM , is all i can say . Thus heed all reminders of sound biblical doctrine , of that JESUS and those apostels and EVERY WORD OF GOD . FOLLOWING the SPIRIT and testing all spirits against THE WORD OF GOD . WE IN CRAZY PERILOUS DELUSIONAL TIMES NOW . AND THE LAMBS BETTER CLING TO JESUS . and be here for one another . FOR The SPIRIT works amongst all the believers and GOD will use each one to help edify one another . But we better TEST ALL things that ALL DO Say . THUS WE BETTER be made wise in those scriptures through our faith in JESUS , or the end wont be peace , but rather destruction . WE in serious trouble , this generation is and worse so are the churches . CLING TO THE KING and ARMOUR UP , ITS BATTLE TIME . LET each ensure and examine that thier own house is clean . For if we cannot govern our own bodies , HOW ON EARTH are we gonna truly be able to edify the church . Its getting ugly with delusion these days . CLING TO JESUS , fEAST ON that BIBLE and learn HIM WELL and all things , EVERY WORD OF GOD IS PURE and LOVELY .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 9:46:10 GMT -5
I will make it simple frienduff . Let no one deny Jesus or He will deny us to the Father. Let no one be ashamed of Jesus or He will be ashamed of us. If we have been guilty REPENT. SPOT ON my FRIEND . that kind of talk is exactly WHAT JESUS HIMSELF said , and the apostels through spirit inspired doctrine did say . ALL we need to do , IS KEEP IT THAT SIMPLE . JESUS always was right to the point . THIS right here was a wonderful THING TO SAY JOHN . IT WAS . LET US JUST KEEP IT THAT SIMPLE . and if any does err , WE CORRECT THEM and set the pattern JESUS SET for all correction . Speaking the things which are SOUND DOCTRINE . YOU are spot on RIGHT . KEEP IT LIKE THAT .
|
|
|
Post by Tabitha3319 on Aug 24, 2020 13:11:05 GMT -5
This is a head-scratcher for me and I may make another thread about the issue so I can study it in my Bible.
How much is our salvation linked to obedience and not sinning?
Only Jesus has been able to walk a perfectly sinless life.
However, I know that God has killed certain people in the Bible over a single sin. Like Annanias and Sapphira. They were killed immediately for lying to the Holy Spirit.
Its interesting to me because most of my life being taught that its basically pointless to try and get rid of sin in your life because sin is pervasive in all our lives. Like germs. The idea is that you can't get rid of all of it, hence why we need Jesus to take away our sin guilt daily.
Now, I believe that the early apostles intended new believers to depart from sin completely after repentance from their old ways. We believers do this by following the Holy Spirit indwelt within us rather than the flesh.
So far I can't think of Scripture that contradicts John other than the ones I already mentioned.
But I will definitely investigate for myself.
|
|
|
Post by Tabitha3319 on Aug 24, 2020 13:38:23 GMT -5
I don't know if I can agree with the idea that your salvation is lost the moment you commit any intentional sin.
We are saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law.
Galatians 2:16-20 King James Version 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Salvation is a matter of faith working itself out through obedience. The fruit of real faith include love, joy, and self-control.
I don't think you lose your salvation the moment you sin because you may still have genuine faith in God although you sinned.
Paul explains salvation is a matter of faith, not perfect obedience.
However, this faith can be tested and should be. Obedience to Christ is the evidence of true faith in Christ. I just can't conclude that a single disobedience can cause you to lose your salvation, if you have faith in Christ still at that point in time.
If you deny Christ, however, you are lost if you don't repent.
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 24, 2020 13:48:47 GMT -5
I don't know if I can agree with the idea that your salvation is lost the moment you commit any intentional sin. We are saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law. Galatians 2:16-20 King James Version 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Salvation is a matter of faith working itself out through obedience. The fruit of real faith include love, joy, and self-control. I don't think you lose your salvation the moment you sin because you may still have genuine faith in God although you sinned. Paul explains salvation is a matter of faith, not perfect obedience. However, this faith can be tested and should be. Obedience to Christ is the evidence of true faith in Christ. I just can't conclude that a single disobedience can cause you to lose your salvation, if you have faith in Christ still at that point in time. If you deny Christ, however, you are lost if you don't repent. One thing that causes confusion is that we have also been lied to and told all sins are equal, when they are not. In the New Testament, Hebrews makes a distinction between sins that are willful and those that are not. The Bible uses the term, "sins unto death," and "sins not unto death." In the Old Testament, there were sins done by mistake verses those done presumptuously, and God did not judge them in the same way.
In the case of Ananias and Sapphira, they willfully tried to steal from the church that had all things common. There is no question they knew they were doing something wrong. I doubt they realized it was "lying to the Holy Ghost," but they knew they were doing something sinful. In the case of someone just slipping up and committing a sin with no thought, that is completely different. I do not believe anyone loses salvation because of something done in error if they are really saved.
Jesus Christ is the only man who lived a perfect life in the sense he committed no sins, period. He never committed any sins at all, willful or in error. Nobody else can make that claim. As far as not being justified by the works of the law, that is true. If all you did was try to follow the law of Moses without first putting your faith in Jesus Christ, you would not be saved. That is why the Jews today that reject Jesus are not saved, even if they were able to keep the law of Moses to the letter.
There is another issue too. What kind of laws was Paul addressing in Galatians? They were laws of separation that only applied to the Jews to show they were a separated people from the idolatrous nations around them. That was the gentile nations. Now that we were included in the plan of salvation, they did not apply. You will never once see Paul defend moral sins, like adultery or theft. He says people that do those things will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Aug 24, 2020 14:02:47 GMT -5
I don't know if I can agree with the idea that your salvation is lost the moment you commit any intentional sin. We are saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law. Galatians 2:16-20 King James Version 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Salvation is a matter of faith working itself out through obedience. The fruit of real faith include love, joy, and self-control. I don't think you lose your salvation the moment you sin because you may still have genuine faith in God although you sinned. Paul explains salvation is a matter of faith, not perfect obedience. However, this faith can be tested and should be. Obedience to Christ is the evidence of true faith in Christ. I just can't conclude that a single disobedience can cause you to lose your salvation, if you have faith in Christ still at that point in time. If you deny Christ, however, you are lost if you don't repent. It aint lost the moment you err . BUT if we remain in error , we will end up lost . cause SIN will HARDEN the heart . SO when or if one does err , we must do the very pattern JESUS said to do and the apostles followed . AND YES indeed the apostels did intend for christians to Cease sin . Paul flat out says , LET all who name the name of JESUS Depart from inquity . HE flat out says , LET these things not ONCE be named among you as becometh saints . But if one does err , let those who are SPIRITUAL restore them . correct the peoples asap .
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 14:29:49 GMT -5
There are no scriptures you brought or examples you gave that state that a person cannot lose salvation over a single sin. You are just using human logic in your comparison to Job. The Bible does not compare Peter to Job. The Bible never says that this was just a test, and that Peter remained saved, and the Bible does not say that Jesus did not deny Peter after that until his conversion. If the Bible came out and said that in anything you posted, I would admit you had a point regarding contradictions, but it never says anything close to that.
I will give you this. Jesus did know that Peter would ultimately be saved, and God was not going to let Peter die before his time. In that way, Peter was safe in the mind of God, but if he had died before getting right with God, he would not have made it into heaven. That is where we get a lot of the false OSAS teachings. People take verses dealing with God's foreknowledge and election and mix that up with unconditional grace, that does not exist. This is all we need to know . concerning sin and error . DONT do it and if one does , confess and forsake it asap . This is the appraoch we must simply have . Because as paul and others knew , sin can and it will harden a heart . Lest any be hardened through the decietfulness of sin . Whether or not everyone agrees on the details of peters failure is not of big concern . WHAT IS of big concern is , SIN itself . ALL we need to do is have the same mindset JESUS and the apostels did . SIN no more . Let it not once be named . If any does err , confess and repent . IF any sees error in another correct it asap . Because no matter what we think we might know , THE TRUTH IS , so long as one is in error , THEY ARE IN DIRE GRAVE DANGER . This is how simple we ought to keep it . I agree with most of what you are saying, and nothing I am saying contradicts what you are saying and what I believe about sin. Except that it does matter how we view the details of Peter's situation in terms of increasing and growing in our understanding. Yes, we need to if we are going to be judging angels.
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Aug 24, 2020 14:40:59 GMT -5
I don't know if I can agree with the idea that your salvation is lost the moment you commit any intentional sin. We are saved by faith in Christ, not obedience to the law. Galatians 2:16-20 King James Version 16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Salvation is a matter of faith working itself out through obedience. The fruit of real faith include love, joy, and self-control. I don't think you lose your salvation the moment you sin because you may still have genuine faith in God although you sinned. Paul explains salvation is a matter of faith, not perfect obedience. However, this faith can be tested and should be. Obedience to Christ is the evidence of true faith in Christ. I just can't conclude that a single disobedience can cause you to lose your salvation, if you have faith in Christ still at that point in time. If you deny Christ, however, you are lost if you don't repent. I would agree that if someone takes a position or has a habit of always denying Christ to men then they are falling away and at some point would be lost if they don't turn around. But someone who does it once or twice due to their immaturity I don't believe they are fallen away from the faith. That would be like a parent writing off their little child because he fell a few times while trying to learn to walk. And God is the judge in these matters, because He knows what's what with each individual soul, what their intentions are, whether they are penitent, how mature they are, etc.
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 26, 2020 14:12:23 GMT -5
Amen.....there is so much to mine out and learn from the story of Moses life. He reminds me of Peter, it follows the same pattern. Wholehearted but not yet wholly sanctified in the beginning. Serving from a position of strength rather than weakness. I think we all follow the same pattern, and it's not until and unless one comes to see how unqualified and unworthy they really are that the Lord then qualifies them. As you well said, His strength is only perfected in our weakness. So we are going on to that perfection, amen. Decreasing so that He will increase. And the Lord is gracious and merciful, through our stages of growth, not a harsh taskmaster like how Pharaoh dealt with his church....beware the leaven of the Pharisees. Our God is willing to give us the straw and seed that we need to produce for Him....but we only truly seek and receive it once we realize that we have it not of ourselves. Praise the Lord, for His goodness and His amazing ways. Lead on Jesus. This post was originally written in the Essay Section, but was removed because it was continuing a debate about denying Jesus. Since Watchful put time into writing it, and did not fully understand the purpose of that section, I am moving it to this thread.
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 26, 2020 17:58:36 GMT -5
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33 Let us go back to the beginning, where this thread began. This is what Jesus says. He never says that you must deny him x number of times to be rejected. He only says that if you deny him before men, he will deny you before the Father in heaven. Does anyone disagree that this is what Jesus said?
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 26, 2020 18:01:39 GMT -5
If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it. For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?
For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angles. Luke 9:23-26 Now, let us look at this scripture. Does Jesus say that we must be ashamed of him x number of times for him to be ashamed of us? All I see is him saying if we are ashamed of him and his words, he will be ashamed of us. Does anyone want to refute that this is what Jesus said? This is all we have to go by, so how can anyone claim with any confidence that they do not believe this is true unless we do it multiple times? What is that based upon? How do we justify adding to Jesus' words like that?
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Aug 26, 2020 18:56:09 GMT -5
Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 10:32-33 Let us go back to the beginning, where this thread began. This is what Jesus says. He never says that you must deny him x number of times to be rejected. He only says that if you deny him before men, he will deny you before the Father in heaven. Does anyone disagree that this is what Jesus said?
NOT ME . WE need to keep it Just straight to the point . meaning . IF JESUS said to do or not to do. WE SIMPLY remind to do and not to do . Leave every warning as is If one does err , THEN , THEN USE the pattern JESUS TAUGHT . Rebuke and correct . Lets just leave it at that .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Aug 26, 2020 18:59:48 GMT -5
Let me give an example . WE know GOD said NOT to fornicate . SO we teach not to fornicate and we warn , like paul , Dont you know fornicators will not inherit the KINGDOM of GOD . NOW if we see one in that sin . WE REBUKE THEM . IF they do repent , they are restored . But you will never see me , ever making light of error . example . I would not say , oh when we first come there are things that might still be doing . NO way . While i know we are all being worked on , SIN and error is deadly . We never know . IF one goes into sin , There is no gaurantee they will ever come back out of it . SO KEEP it SERIOUS . And if we see it , correct it .
|
|
|
Post by watchful on Aug 27, 2020 7:21:09 GMT -5
Let me give an example . WE know GOD said NOT to fornicate . SO we teach not to fornicate and we warn , like paul , Dont you know fornicators will not inherit the KINGDOM of GOD . NOW if we see one in that sin . WE REBUKE THEM . IF they do repent , they are restored . But you will never see me , ever making light of error . example . I would not say , oh when we first come there are things that might still be doing . NO way . While i know we are all being worked on , SIN and error is deadly . We never know . IF one goes into sin , There is no gaurantee they will ever come back out of it . SO KEEP it SERIOUS . And if we see it , correct it . Well, let's preach the word by all means and keep holding up the plumbline. And the truth is simple. The problem that I see is that people are not so simple, And that's why I believe folks often need to be ministered to and not just preached at. Paul preached not just in word but with a demonstration of power....power to heal, power to change hearts, power to deliver, etc, in order to free people to even be able to obey the Lord. It's a MINISTRY of reconciliation, the word needs to be ministered to hearts. So I don't think it's a case of simply remind believers of what the bible says and if their life doesn't instantly line up with every word in the bible in every way then "too bad, so sad" for them. It's a battle, a laborious battle all the way, and ultimately people need to have the word ministered to them the same way that the Lord ministered the gospel to our hearts...by His Spirit and through faith....the word must find entrance, and we take more ground at various times that involves both God's choosing and our readiness along the way. Jesus says to come to Him and LEARN of Him...it can take a lifetime of growing and maturing, for one's faith to be perfected, a lifetime of the Lord working in various ways in our lives and hearts, and this is also what enables us to be touched with the feeling (empathy) of others' infirmities as well (which comes through getting to know our own infirmities...all flesh is the same). It works humility in us too. It's not for no reason that we will lay our crowns at HIS feet....I doubt we can even fathom how intimately involved and how hard He works in our lives. That the Lord is able and has power to keep us and bring us safely Home, doesn't mean it is a light and easy thing, or instantaneous. Also I like to keep in mind that different members of the body have different gifts....believers can have anointing in some areas while completely lacking in other areas that people need in order to be ministered to, and it doesn't mean the Lord writes anyone off for that. And not to mention the need for each one to grow in their gifting. His wisdom is manifold and He ministers His manifold graces through an entire Body not just through one gifting or person. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by John on Aug 27, 2020 7:33:57 GMT -5
watchful, I understand what you are saying, but at the same time, we would not tell someone what the Bible says, and then turn around and say that even though this is what it says, God knows you cannot really do it, but you have to grow in maturity first. We do not tell them that if they fail, do not worry. People may fail, and people may mature at a different rate of speed, but our job is not to make light of this. If they do fail, we should be there to try to help them back up, but that is different from saying failure is to be expected. Also, we cannot say with assurance a person's failure did not cost them their standing with God. We only know what scripture says about certain things.
|
|