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Post by solid on Jan 13, 2020 15:50:29 GMT -5
One thing that comes to mind is that binding and loosing is, or can be, related to forgiving sins....just like Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins and He delegated that authority to the church: Jhn 20:21-23 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. That is interesting. Do you think if a person confesses their sins to the Pastor or Deeacon, they have the authority to forgive them?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 17:22:25 GMT -5
One thing that comes to mind is that binding and loosing is, or can be, related to forgiving sins....just like Jesus had authority on earth to forgive sins and He delegated that authority to the church: Jhn 20:21-23 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. That is interesting. Do you think if a person confesses their sins to the Pastor or Deeacon, they have the authority to forgive them? I don't know all the details of what this means...am just really starting to look into it. Although I believe the Lord showed me some time ago that forgiving also has to do with binding and loosing. I will try to remember how that understanding came about. And that recently I felt the Lord extend forgiveness to someone through me, like when Jesus felt virtue go out from Him....that is why I am looking at this verse as well. This is a separate thing from forgiving when someone sins against us. I tend to believe the Holy Spirit can remit sins through anyone He pleases at any given time, or not remit. I am not a pastor or deacon.
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Post by solid on Jan 13, 2020 17:40:44 GMT -5
That is interesting. Do you think if a person confesses their sins to the Pastor or Deeacon, they have the authority to forgive them? I don't know all the details of what this means...am just really starting to look into it. Although I believe the Lord showed me some time ago that forgiving also has to do with binding and loosing. I will try to remember how that understanding came about. And that recently I felt the Lord extend forgiveness to someone through me, like when Jesus felt virtue go out from Him....that is why I am looking at this verse as well. This is a separate thing from forgiving when someone sins against us. I tend to believe the Holy Spirit can remit sins through anyone He pleases at any given time, or not remit. I am not a pastor or deacon. I am not sure what it means. That is why I asked.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 17:46:03 GMT -5
I don't know all the details of what this means...am just really starting to look into it. Although I believe the Lord showed me some time ago that forgiving also has to do with binding and loosing. I will try to remember how that understanding came about. And that recently I felt the Lord extend forgiveness to someone through me, like when Jesus felt virtue go out from Him....that is why I am looking at this verse as well. This is a separate thing from forgiving when someone sins against us. I tend to believe the Holy Spirit can remit sins through anyone He pleases at any given time, or not remit. I am not a pastor or deacon. I am not sure what it means. That is why I asked. It's good to discuss things...sometime the Lord will lend more light on a subject even as we are talking about it.
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Post by Giller on Jan 14, 2020 2:57:50 GMT -5
Maybe we can explore that Jhn 20:21-23 scripture some more, and what it is saying, at some point, but right now, how about we get to the actual verses that talk about binding and loosing, and see what it says.
Because to know what binding and loosing is all about, we first have to determine what the verses say with these actual words in the text.
Mat 16:16-19 (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Mat 18:15-20 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 7:26:40 GMT -5
Maybe we can explore that Jhn 20:21-23 scripture some more, and what it is saying, at some point, but right now, how about we get to the actual verses that talk about binding and loosing, and see what it says. Because to know what binding and loosing is all about, we first have to determine what the verses say with these actual words in the text. Mat 16:16-19 (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.(19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Mat 18:15-20 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Amen!....and now see how in Matthew 18 it is talking about trespasses and whether to forgive or not forgive the person (loose or bind them)...where it continues on beginning in the very next verse 21 to 30: Mat 18:21-30 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.
And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.
But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.
The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.
But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.
And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
And he would not: but went and cast him into prison (ie, bound him), till he should pay the debt.
In cases where church discipline is brought to bear (where Jesus mentions two or three gathered in His name) because the person is UNrepentant then that seems to be a case where their trespass is not forgiven them at that time, ie, they are not loosed from their debt, but they are disfellowshiped and bound over to Satan until such time as they repent...ie, they will suffer consequences for their sin in the form of chastisements. I'm pretty sure this must be for serious transgressions and we are not to abuse this power over minor squabbles between members of the body, since scripture also says we are to bear with one another in love. Remember Jesus "loosing" the woman on the sabbath who had an infirmity of being bent over? It was well known from the Law that sicknesses and diseases came upon the nation due to apostasy and sinning against the Lord .....Jesus going around healing all who were oppressed by the devil (loosing them) was Him releasing grace and forgiveness to the people. Remember Him healing the man sick of the palsy, SO THAT they would know He had power on earth to forgive sins...? So it seems that healing, binding and loosing, is connected to forgiving or not forgiving.....at least in this one sense.
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Post by solid on Jan 14, 2020 7:43:21 GMT -5
I have taken binding and loosing to be about binding evil spirits. Sometimes sickness is the result of infirmities that are evil spirits.
I am not sure about remitting of sins, but I don't see a connection to binding and loosing.
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Post by Giller on Jan 14, 2020 11:55:11 GMT -5
Maybe I will look more into this forgiveness stuff in a bit, but one thing that needs to be noted is this, that in verse 21 they were starting a new conversation.
Mat 18:21 (21) Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
And yes it does mention the word loosed in verse 27, which is interesting.
But the specific loosing and binding scripture we mentioned, was part of what was mentioned before this.
Here is the scripture:
Mat 18:15-20 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Between verse 15 to 17, it is speaking of a type of correction, and it is not talking about forgiveness or unforgiveness in these specific verses, now in the ones you mentioned Watchful, it does talk about forgiveness and unforgiveness, but Matthew 18 verses 15 to 17, is specific of correction.
It says if someone trespasses against thee, tell him his fault between thee and him alone.
That is a type of correction.
And it says that if he hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
If he does not hear thee, then bring 1 or 2 more.
If he does not hear them, tell it to the church, and if he does not hear the church, let him be unto thee as a heathen and publican.
Then we get to the word verily, which just simply means surely, truly, or of a truth.
And it seems to me that Jesus is just continuing the conversation in verse 18 of what was just said about correction.
So correction is mentioned, then what is mentioned is the word truly, or of a truth, that Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
And in truth, if you correct a person, and the person does not receive correction, that person is bound by their sin, but if the person does receive your words of correction, then that person will be loosed from their sin.
If correction is rejected well the person is not being repentful, but if he receives correction truthfully, then it is because he repented.
But then the conversation continues:
Mat 18:18-20 (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
So verse 18 mentions binding and loosing, and then verse 19 starts with the word again, which means once more, that if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done unto them.
Well before chapter 18, Jesus did mention a scripture that talks about asking, here it is:
Mat 7:7-9 (7) Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: (8) For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. (9) Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
This is no doubt talking about prayer.
Asking God about certain things in prayer.
And verse 19 is indeed talking about asking (as touching any thing that they shall ask), and it is talking about the prayer of agreement of at least two.
Then it mentions the word "for" in verse 20, which means that it is talking about what was just mentioned, about asking, and it says "for" were 2 or 3 are gathered together in his name, there am I in the midst of them, which it is not talking about being gathered for the sake of correction, but rather to be gathered in prayer, which most meetings starts off with prayer anyways.
So I believe that the binding and loosing, is in relation to both the correction part of chapter 18, and the prayer part of chapter 18, it is all together for a reason.
And yes it is referring to us having power over evil spirits (in prayer), and here is an example of how Jesus used the word loosed in action:
Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
It was a spirit, that is a spirit of infirmity, and Jesus loosed her from that spirit of infirmity.
And in essence Jesus was praying over her and loosed her from this spirit.
And here we see proof of the word loose, being associated with loosing someone from a spirit.
And in an up coming post, I will cover the other scripture that mentions binding and loosing.
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Post by Giller on Jan 14, 2020 13:25:13 GMT -5
Here are what the words binding and loosing mean in the Greek:
To bind
(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G1210 δέω deō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bind tie, fasten 1a) to bind, fasten with chains, to throw into chains 1b) metaphorically 1b1) Satan is said to bind a woman bent together by means of a demon, as his messenger, taking possession of the woman and preventing her from standing upright 1b2) to bind, put under obligation, of the law, duty etc. 1b2a) to be bound to one, a wife, a husband 1b3) to forbid, prohibit, declare to be illicit
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root)
To loose
(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G3089 λύω luō
Thayer Definition:
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened 1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes 1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony 1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married 2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free 2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages) 2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together 3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up 3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds 3c) to annul, subvert 3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act 3e) to declare unlawful 3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy 3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy 3h) metaphorically, to overthrow, to do away with
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word)
Now here is how Jesus used the word loosed:
Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
And remember that Jesus is our ultimate example.
Loosing someone, is to set them free from their bondage.
Now binding is something different than loosing, binding is hindering the works of the devil and his minions, so casting out devils out of someone is not binding, but rather casting out devils out of someone is actually loosing the person from these demons.
Remember binding is to hinder evil spirits, it is to put them in a type of spiritual chain in a sense , although it is true that when you loose someone from their bondage, it gets evil spirits in a bind, because the person is no longer bound.
And today one popular saying is this, I loose the Holy Spirit on this or that situation, but notice that Jesus nor any of the apostles, nor any one in the bible, ever used the word loose in this way.
We do not loose the Holy Spirit on situations, and biblical loosing speaks of loosing someone from their bondage as that woman with a spirit of infirmity.
What the disciples did is speak the word, and God confirmed it, and when he confirms his word, in a sense the Holy Spirit is already loosed upon the situation.
So loosing biblically speaking, has nothing to do with loosing the Holy Spirit, but rather it is about someone being loosed from their bondage.
Yes we ask God for him to confirm his word, and for the Holy Ghost to be on the scene, but it is the Holy Ghost himself that moves on the scene, and not us loosing him on the scene.
It is not about magic, it is to do all in his name as the bible says.
It is not about using techniques that make us feel more important, or more powerful, but rather it is to do all in the name of Jesus as the bible says.
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Post by Giller on Jan 14, 2020 14:45:16 GMT -5
Mat 16:16-19 (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Notice in verse 18 it mentions that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, that is against the church.
And then it talks about being given the keys of the kingdom of heaven, that whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
I believe the keys refer to being given authority to loose and bind.
Loosing and binding are 2 things, and the word keys are in the plural.
It is to bind things which concern evil spirits, and to loose people from their bondages, that evil spirits bring to people (and in essence it is like the gates of hell being open and evil spirits trying to do their damage).
Now here is a commentary on the gates of hell:
(John Wesley)
(...The gates of hell - As gates and walls were the strength of cities, and as courts of judicature were held in their gates, this phrase properly signifies the power and policy of Satan and his instruments. Shall not prevail against it - Not against the Church universal, so as to destroy it. And they never did. There hath been a small remnant in all ages.)
Now we know that evil spirits are on earth, roaming around to devour.
Now notice what it says in verse 19:
Mat 16:19
(19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth is bound in heaven, well I know that evil spirits have access to heaven to accuse us before God, but as we bind them, do we actually hinder them to have access to some degree in heaven, to accuse us before God?
Because it is said they are bound in heaven.
And then it says that whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. See it does not say whatsoever thou shalt loose in heaven, shalt be loosed on earth but rather it says the opposite of this, which it says that whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, on earth , on earth, shalt be loosed in heaven.
So nothing about loosing something from heaven first.
And I believe as we walk in faith, and speak forth the word in prayer over someone, that once done, the power of God gets released from heaven on the situation and God confirms his word, therefore whatsoever gets loosed on earth, gets loosed in heaven, and the bondage is no longer, the bondage is dissolved.
You can say that the Holy Spirit goes to confirm God's word, in loosing the person from a bondage.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 14, 2020 16:11:11 GMT -5
This is a really good thread and well researched. I once heard someone say the word translated loosed meant destroyed or something like that, but I don't know what Dictionary they were using or in reference to which New Testament verses.
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Post by Giller on Jan 15, 2020 2:32:10 GMT -5
Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
Well concerning this scripture when Jesus loosed the woman from her infirmity, she was set free, the bondage in her life was in essence destroyed, and she was free.
Jesus said thou art loosed from thine infirmity, which when she got loosed from it, she was free from it, plain and simple.
And I just want to go back to these verses:
Mat 16:16-19 (16) And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. (17) And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (18) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
It says that the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church.
Which means that things which concerns the gates of hell, are trying to prevail against the church.
And it is Santa and hi minions that are trying to destroy the church, either by bringing them into apostasy, so they turn away from the Lord, or they try to destroy the church by getting them martyred, so that the hope of Satan is, that if he can destroy all the church, there will no one be left to share Christ, but of course the gates of Hell shall not prevail against the church.
Satan and his minions point people to hell, and they want believers to turn away from Christ, to such a point to were they lose their salvation, and eventually go to hell.
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Post by Giller on Jan 15, 2020 3:40:52 GMT -5
Forgiveness of sins
Now let us talk a bit about the forgiveness of sins.
Can we forgive sins, and in what way?
Isa 43:25 (25) I, even I, am he that blotteth out thy transgressions for mine own sake, and will not remember thy sins.
Now this is referring of course to God, and he is the one that blots out sin.
Eph 1:7 (7) In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
It is in Christ, and no other that we have forgiveness of sins.
Mar 2:5-7 (5) When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. (6) But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, (7) Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only?
It was true what they said about God only forgiving sins, but they did not realize who they were talking to, which it was Jesus, which he is God.
So if only God can forgive sins, then in what way does the bible say we can forgive sins?
Well let us go to a few scriptures first:
Luk 17:3-4 (3) Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him. (4) And if he trespass against thee seven times in a day, and seven times in a day turn again to thee, saying, I repent; thou shalt forgive him.
See the forgiveness part is in conjunction with them repenting.
Now in your heart even if they do not repent, that does not mean you should hold a grudge against them in your heart, and in your heart you can still forgive them, but verbally speaking you cannot, for they have not repented.
And here it is talking about a brother trespassing against you.
Now when someone truly repents unto God, they also seek to make things right with their brothers in Christ, which is one sign of true repentance.
So now we get to our scripture:
Joh 20:21-23 (21) Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. (22) And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: (23) Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
This has absolutely nothing to do with men like a Pope and priests, having power to absolve people of their sins, no not at all, and that is blasphemy.
I will give biblical examples of this in action:
Retaining sins
Act 5:3-5 (3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (5) And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.
2Ti 4:14-15 (14) Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: (15) Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words.
To retain is to take hold of , or to seize.
Now retaining someone's sin has nothing to do with having a grudge against another.
And concerning Ananias, and Alexander the coppersmith, they were not in a repentant state, therefore what Paul and Peter declared, were their sinful state, thus there sins were retained, yet Ananias lost his soul and died physically as a result.
And Alexander was also not in a good state, yet still alive at the time of course.
By Paul and Peter's declarations, Ananias' and Alexander's sins were retained.
Remitting sins
Eph 4:32 (32) And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
The word remit, means to let go, or to omit.
And Here it shows a declaration of believer's sins being remitted, or forgiven, by Paul mentioning to these believers that even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.
And also when someone comes to Christ, and has repented of their sins, a believer can say to them with authority that Christ has forgiven them their sins.
And if a brother that has trespassed against you repents, and is sorrowful for what he has done to you, you can forgive them verbally.
But always remember that it is Christ that absolves people from sin and not us.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2020 8:35:39 GMT -5
Just want to mention that yes Jesus as God had authority to forgive sins on earth, however He delegated that to His church.....because it is the Spirit of Christ releasing the forgiveness (or retaining) through us. We are to do the will of God. Just like it is possible to say to someone you are healed, doesn't necessarily mean they are....we can say to someone with our mouth that they are forgiven but it doesn't necessarily mean they are. This has to be done by faith, ie, through the Holy Spirit. It needs to be God working through the believer. (This is another area where the RCC falls down, they do things like this by rote and formality, not in simplicity and by faith.)
I don't know how the following relates to what we are talking about...but remembering where Jesus said we have to first bind the strongman and then plunder His house.....I know that people often do this in prayer etc, when trying to deliver or heal someone...but I just don't have revelation of what it means or how it relates to retaining sin (if it does). That for me is still simmering on the back burner. The only thing that comes to mind is that we dont' forgive the strongman....the devil or demon just don't get forgiven by God....so maybe that has something to to with binding him.
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Post by Giller on Jan 15, 2020 11:23:22 GMT -5
Unless someone repents they cannot be forgiven of their sins.
You can tell them their sins are forgiven all you want, but their sins will not be forgiven unless they repent, for the bible says this:
1Jn 1:9 (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Here is an interesting comment from John Wesley on remitting and retaining:
(John Wesley)
(John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit - (According to the tenor of the Gospel, that is, supposing them to repent and believe) they are remitted, and whose soever sins ye retain (supposing them to remain impenitent) they are retained. So far is plain. But here arises a difficulty. Are not the sins of one who truly repents, and unfeignedly believes in Christ, remitted, without sacerdotal absolution? And are not the sins of one who does not repent or believe, retained even with it? What then does this commission imply? Can it imply any more than, A power of declaring with authority the Christian terms of pardon; whose sins are remitted and whose retained? As in our daily form of absolution; and A power of inflicting and remitting ecclesiastical censures? That is, of excluding from, and re - admitting into, a Christian congregation.)
And here are a few other comments:
(Adam Clark)
(John 20:23
Whose soever sins ye remit - See the notes on Mat_16:19; Mat_18:18. It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation. The reader is desired to consult the note referred to above, where the custom to which our Lord alludes is particularly considered. Dr. Lightfoot supposes that the power of life and death, and the power of delivering over to Satan, which was granted to the apostles, is here referred to....)
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(in its simplest form means that when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and accepted by sinners, the Preacher of the Gospel, or any Believer for that matter, can announce unequivocally to the new Believer that all his sins are "remitted" i.e, forgiven)
(Jimmy Swaggart)
(is the same as the former, but exactly opposite; if the Gospel is refused, the Believer has the obligation to inform the Christ-rejector that, despiite whatsoever else he might do, he is still in his sins, and barring Repentance will suffer the consequences)
We are not to be like Catholic priests who have a confessional so people confess their sins to them, and they grant absolution of sins, that is not what John 20:23 is talking about, which would contradict scriptures.
And I think people do not realize how much power there is in the tongue, or when speaking the word by faith, through the anointing, some might think this trivial, about if someone repents, they can be declared forgiven, and that if someone does not, you can declare that they still are in their sins, this is not trivial at all, it is an authority given by God, and when done truthfully, in the right way, it can be more powerful than we think.
Look at the issue of Ananias, after Peter declared what he said, Ananias fell dead.
And knowingly declaring someone being still in their sins, can bring conviction to their hearts.
Let us not seek to be more, or to have more than what he has given us authority to do.
We are not here to get a power trip.
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