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Post by Giller on Jan 15, 2020 11:48:58 GMT -5
And in essence, if someone has truly repented and gotten saved, there are times the devil can come and condemn them, and a believer can bring comfort to this person who is now saved, in saying brother your sins are forgiven, Jesus promises forgiveness of sins.
An in essence what you are doing, is just simply declaring to them what Christ already did in them, basically you are declaring the word of God.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 15, 2020 12:42:46 GMT -5
Unless someone repents they cannot be forgiven of their sins. You can tell them their sins are forgiven all you want, but their sins will not be forgiven unless they repent, for the bible says this: 1Jn 1:9 (9) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Here is an interesting comment from John Wesley on remitting and retaining: (John Wesley)(John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit - (According to the tenor of the Gospel, that is, supposing them to repent and believe) they are remitted, and whose soever sins ye retain (supposing them to remain impenitent) they are retained. So far is plain. But here arises a difficulty. Are not the sins of one who truly repents, and unfeignedly believes in Christ, remitted, without sacerdotal absolution? And are not the sins of one who does not repent or believe, retained even with it? What then does this commission imply? Can it imply any more than, A power of declaring with authority the Christian terms of pardon; whose sins are remitted and whose retained? As in our daily form of absolution; and A power of inflicting and remitting ecclesiastical censures? That is, of excluding from, and re - admitting into, a Christian congregation.)
And here are a few other comments: (Adam Clark)(John 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit - See the notes on Mat_16:19; Mat_18:18. It is certain God alone can forgive sins; and it would not only be blasphemous, but grossly absurd, to say that any creature could remit the guilt of a transgression which had been committed against the Creator. The apostles received from the Lord the doctrine of reconciliation, and the doctrine of condemnation. They who believed on the Son of God, in consequence of their preaching, had their sins remitted; and they who would not believe were declared to lie under condemnation. The reader is desired to consult the note referred to above, where the custom to which our Lord alludes is particularly considered. Dr. Lightfoot supposes that the power of life and death, and the power of delivering over to Satan, which was granted to the apostles, is here referred to....)(Jimmy Swaggart)(in its simplest form means that when the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached and accepted by sinners, the Preacher of the Gospel, or any Believer for that matter, can announce unequivocally to the new Believer that all his sins are "remitted" i.e, forgiven)(Jimmy Swaggart)(is the same as the former, but exactly opposite; if the Gospel is refused, the Believer has the obligation to inform the Christ-rejector that, despiite whatsoever else he might do, he is still in his sins, and barring Repentance will suffer the consequences)We are not to be like Catholic priests who have a confessional so people confess their sins to them, and they grant absolution of sins, that is not what John 20:23 is talking about, which would contradict scriptures.
And I think people do not realize how much power there is in the tongue, or when speaking the word by faith, through the anointing, some might think this trivial, about if someone repents, they can be declared forgiven, and that if someone does not, you can declare that they still are in their sins, this is not trivial at all, it is an authority given by God, and when done truthfully, in the right way, it can be more powerful than we think.
Look at the issue of Ananias, after Peter declared what he said, Ananias fell dead.
And knowingly declaring someone being still in their sins, can bring conviction to their hearts.
Let us not seek to be more, or to have more than what has given us authority to do.
We are not here to get a power trip. I don't know for certain it is correct, but the Jimmy Swaggart explanation makes the most sense to me.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 15, 2020 12:45:23 GMT -5
And in essence, if someone has truly repented and gotten saved, there are times the devil can come and condemn them, and a believer can bring comfort to this person who is now saved, in saying brother your sins are forgiven, Jesus promises forgiveness of sins. An in essence what you are doing, is just simply declaring to them what Christ already did in them, basically you are declaring the word of God. This has been a really good discussion and given me a lot to consider.
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Post by Giller on Jan 15, 2020 14:34:08 GMT -5
Mat 18:15-20 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. (20) For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Of course one example we have of loosing, is when Jesus loosed the woman from her infirmity:
Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity.
And binding and loosing, as a correction aspect to it (Matthew 18:15-17), and a setting people free from a spirit aspect to it (Luke 13:11-12).
There is the praying aspect to it (Matthew 18:19), and a correction aspect to it (Matthew 18:15-17).
But also the word says this:"Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven".
Binding and loosing does mainly deal with people, and of course dealing with spirits who bring people into bondage, but also it can possibly deal with things at times.
Now here is a scripture to think about, which this action is actually somewhat stronger than binding:
Mat 21:18-20 (18) Now in the morning as he returned into the city, he hungered. (19) And when he saw a fig tree in the way, he came to it, and found nothing thereon, but leaves only, and said unto it, Let no fruit grow on thee henceforward for ever. And presently the fig tree withered away. (20) And when the disciples saw it, they marvelled, saying, How soon is the fig tree withered away!
This fig tree actually totally withered away, which this action was a stronger action than just binding something, but it completely withered away.
Just the same interesting thing to think about.
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Post by John on Jan 15, 2020 18:11:47 GMT -5
This is a really good thread and well researched. I once heard someone say the word translated loosed meant destroyed or something like that, but I don't know what Dictionary they were using or in reference to which New Testament verses. You probably remembered that I had said that in this thread. It is the word translated loose. In the Greek, it is luo, and it means to break up, destroy, dissolve, unloose, melt, put off. I suppose it depends on how you use the word when you are loosing something. Lets say you were wanting to request angels to do something. How much sense does it make to say, "I destroy angels," or "I dissolve angels?" For one thing, are angels bound? If they are, and you know it, you would loose the chains binding them, perhaps, but the way I was hearing this word used, it was wrong.
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Post by John on Jan 15, 2020 18:21:18 GMT -5
Here are what the words binding and loosing mean in the Greek: To bind(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G1210 δέω deō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bind tie, fasten 1a) to bind, fasten with chains, to throw into chains 1b) metaphorically 1b1) Satan is said to bind a woman bent together by means of a demon, as his messenger, taking possession of the woman and preventing her from standing upright 1b2) to bind, put under obligation, of the law, duty etc. 1b2a) to be bound to one, a wife, a husband 1b3) to forbid, prohibit, declare to be illicit
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root)
To loose
(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G3089 λύω luō
Thayer Definition:
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened 1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes 1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony 1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married 2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free 2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages) 2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together 3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up 3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds 3c) to annul, subvert 3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act 3e) to declare unlawful 3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy 3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy 3h) metaphorically, to overthrow, to do away with
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word)Now here is how Jesus used the word loosed: Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And remember that Jesus is our ultimate example. Loosing someone, is to set them free from their bondage. Now binding is something different than loosing, binding is hindering the works of the devil and his minions, so casting out devils out of someone is not binding, but rather casting out devils out of someone is actually loosing the person from these demons. Remember binding is to hinder evil spirits, it is to put them in a type of spiritual chain in a sense , although it is true that when you loose someone from their bondage, it gets evil spirits in a bind, because the person is no longer bound. And today one popular saying is this, I loose the Holy Spirit on this or that situation, but notice that Jesus nor any of the apostles, nor any one in the bible, ever used the word loose in this way. We do not loose the Holy Spirit on situations, and biblical loosing speaks of loosing someone from their bondage as that woman with a spirit of infirmity. What the disciples did is speak the word, and God confirmed it, and when he confirms his word, in a sense the Holy Spirit is already loosed upon the situation. So loosing biblically speaking, has nothing to do with loosing the Holy Spirit, but rather it is about someone being loosed from their bondage. Yes we ask God for him to confirm his word, and for the Holy Ghost to be on the scene, but it is the Holy Ghost himself that moves on the scene, and not us loosing him on the scene. It is not about magic, it is to do all in his name as the bible says. It is not about using techniques that make us feel more important, or more powerful, but rather it is to do all in the name of Jesus as the bible says. I use a plain old Strong's Dictionary, and based on my understanding of the meaning of the Greek word luo, if I was loosing someone from an infirmity, I am speaking the destruction of the infirmity, not saying the woman is untied from the infirmity. I am destroying, dissolving, something of that nature. There would be no way I would say I was loosing the Holy Spirit. If a person was in bondage to something, I could loose the thing they are in bondage to, but not the person, because based on how I look at the word, to loose is to destroy.
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Post by John on Jan 15, 2020 18:23:27 GMT -5
And in essence, if someone has truly repented and gotten saved, there are times the devil can come and condemn them, and a believer can bring comfort to this person who is now saved, in saying brother your sins are forgiven, Jesus promises forgiveness of sins. An in essence what you are doing, is just simply declaring to them what Christ already did in them, basically you are declaring the word of God. This has been a really good discussion and given me a lot to consider. This is a really good topic of discussion, because binding and loosing is an important weapon we have been given to fight the enemy. It does no good to have the keys if we don't know how to use them.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 16, 2020 8:06:09 GMT -5
This is a really good thread and well researched. I once heard someone say the word translated loosed meant destroyed or something like that, but I don't know what Dictionary they were using or in reference to which New Testament verses. You probably remembered that I had said that in this thread. It is the word translated loose. In the Greek, it is luo, and it means to break up, destroy, dissolve, unloose, melt, put off. I suppose it depends on how you use the word when you are loosing something. Lets say you were wanting to request angels to do something. How much sense does it make to say, "I destroy angels," or "I dissolve angels?" For one thing, are angels bound? If they are, and you know it, you would loose the chains binding them, perhaps, but the way I was hearing this word used, it was wrong.
If we are talking about God's angels, they shouldn't be bound up in chains, but it is possible they are being hindered, like the angels were that were trying to get through to Daniel.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 11:40:34 GMT -5
Here are what the words binding and loosing mean in the Greek: To bind(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G1210 δέω deō
Thayer Definition:
1) to bind tie, fasten 1a) to bind, fasten with chains, to throw into chains 1b) metaphorically 1b1) Satan is said to bind a woman bent together by means of a demon, as his messenger, taking possession of the woman and preventing her from standing upright 1b2) to bind, put under obligation, of the law, duty etc. 1b2a) to be bound to one, a wife, a husband 1b3) to forbid, prohibit, declare to be illicit
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root)
To loose
(Thayer's Greek definitions)
(G3089 λύω luō
Thayer Definition:
1) to loose any person (or thing) tied or fastened 1a) bandages of the feet, the shoes 1b) of a husband and wife joined together by the bond of matrimony 1c) of a single man, whether he has already had a wife or has not yet married 2) to loose one bound, i.e. to unbind, release from bonds, set free 2a) of one bound up (swathed in bandages) 2b) bound with chains (a prisoner), discharge from prison, let go 3) to loosen, undo, dissolve, anything bound, tied, or compacted together 3a) an assembly, i.e. to dismiss, break up 3b) laws, as having a binding force, are likened to bonds 3c) to annul, subvert 3d) to do away with, to deprive of authority, whether by precept or act 3e) to declare unlawful 3f) to loose what is compacted or built together, to break up, demolish, destroy 3g) to dissolve something coherent into parts, to destroy 3h) metaphorically, to overthrow, to do away with
Part of Speech: verb A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: a root word)Now here is how Jesus used the word loosed: Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. And remember that Jesus is our ultimate example. Loosing someone, is to set them free from their bondage. Now binding is something different than loosing, binding is hindering the works of the devil and his minions, so casting out devils out of someone is not binding, but rather casting out devils out of someone is actually loosing the person from these demons. Remember binding is to hinder evil spirits, it is to put them in a type of spiritual chain in a sense , although it is true that when you loose someone from their bondage, it gets evil spirits in a bind, because the person is no longer bound. And today one popular saying is this, I loose the Holy Spirit on this or that situation, but notice that Jesus nor any of the apostles, nor any one in the bible, ever used the word loose in this way. We do not loose the Holy Spirit on situations, and biblical loosing speaks of loosing someone from their bondage as that woman with a spirit of infirmity. What the disciples did is speak the word, and God confirmed it, and when he confirms his word, in a sense the Holy Spirit is already loosed upon the situation. So loosing biblically speaking, has nothing to do with loosing the Holy Spirit, but rather it is about someone being loosed from their bondage. Yes we ask God for him to confirm his word, and for the Holy Ghost to be on the scene, but it is the Holy Ghost himself that moves on the scene, and not us loosing him on the scene. It is not about magic, it is to do all in his name as the bible says. It is not about using techniques that make us feel more important, or more powerful, but rather it is to do all in the name of Jesus as the bible says. I use a plain old Strong's Dictionary, and based on my understanding of the meaning of the Greek word luo, if I was loosing someone from an infirmity, I am speaking the destruction of the infirmity, not saying the woman is untied from the infirmity. I am destroying, dissolving, something of that nature. There would be no way I would say I was loosing the Holy Spirit. If a person was in bondage to something, I could loose the thing they are in bondage to, but not the person, because based on how I look at the word, to loose is to destroy.
I do not think we are that far off from each other John concerning the word loose. Mat 16:19 (19) And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Here is the Strong's definition for the word loose, concerning Matthew 16:19: (Strong's concordance)(G3089 λύω luō loo'-o A primary verb; to “loosen” (literally or figuratively): - break (up), destroy, dissolve, (un-) loose, melt, put off. Compare G4486.Total KJV occurrences: 43)
And here is another scripture:Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. Now here is the Strong's concordance definition for the word loose in Luke 13:12: (Strong's concordance)
(G630 ἀπολύω apoluō ap-ol-oo'-o From G575 and G3089; to free fully, that is, (literally) relieve, release, dismiss (reflexively depart), or (figuratively) let die, pardon, or (specifically) divorce: - (let) depart, dismiss, divorce, forgive, let go, loose, put (send) away, release, set at liberty. Total KJV occurrences: 69)
The two may be two different Greek words, but it says that the Greek word apoluō comes from G3089, which means it is a similar word or a related word. Now in our first definition, we see words such as loosen, break up, destroy, dissolve, melt, put off. Putting off something, is to have something removed from something, and loosening something, is to have something loosening it's grip from something. And in essence it is the bondage that evil spirits put on you being dissolved and destroy from your life. And really it is being set free from that bondage. Which in our second definition we see words like to free fully, relieve, release, dismiss, let die, let go, set at liberty. Now let us go back to our scripture: Luk 13:11-12 (11) And, behold, there was a woman which had a spirit of infirmity eighteen years, and was bowed together, and could in no wise lift up herself. (12) And when Jesus saw her, he called her to him, and said unto her, Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity. This is the word loosed in action. What does it say? Be loosed from thine infirmity. Who is being loosed from their infirmity? The woman is. It says you woman be loosed from your infirmity. For that is who it is addressed to, the woman. But what is she being loosed from? From an infirmity, specifically a spirit of infirmity. And what is happening is she is being loosed, set free, released from this infirmity, or you could also say that this infirmity is being put off, destroyed, or dissolved from her life. I think the word destroy or dissolved is more used in this sense, to were the bondage is being put off thus the person being set free as we see in our second definition. When someone is set free, they are being set free from something, which is a type of bondage, and in this case, the woman was set free from this spirit of infirmity. So if you are being set free from something, then that means that something that you once had, is no longer there. It really is that simple.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 11:51:27 GMT -5
Oh and I agree with you John on not loosing the Holy Spirit, for that is not scriptural.
And the way loosing is used in the bible, is to loose people from bondages.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 12:43:37 GMT -5
Binding and loosing
Concerning prayer, I agree whole heartedly in praying prayers like:"I bind you Satan....or I bind you evil spirit..." and so forth, and when we bind Satan and his minions, Satan's kingdom gets hindered in fully doing what he wants to do.
And also of course I agree, with praying things like:" I loose you from this infirmity..., and so on".
But for something to be bound or loosed, the words bind and loose does not have to always be used.
Here are examples:
Act 16:18-19 (18) And this did she many days. But Paul, being grieved, turned and said to the spirit, I command thee in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her. And he came out the same hour. (19) And when her masters saw that the hope of their gains was gone, they caught Paul and Silas, and drew them into the marketplace unto the rulers,
Luk 4:35-36 (35) And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not. (36) And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.
See in these 2 examples, people were loosed from their bondage, without the word loosed being used.
But in saying this, many times people at times only relate binding and loosing to casting out demons and so on, or only to the prayer realm, but what about the correction realm?
Mat 18:15-18 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Can a person be set free, or free from a bondage or from sin, through receiving a correction, thus repenting?
Well the blood of the Lamb sets free from sin , and the bondage of sin, or the condemnation of sin.
And evil spirits even in that realm are in works to keep people under the realm of sin.
And when someone repents, evil spirits seek to bring these people under condemnation, so they do not believe that God has forgiven them, although it may require some spiritual warfare, but in and of itself, repentance does bring freedom from the condemnation of sin, and from the realm of sin, and from evil spirits that held you under the bondage of sin, for the blood of the Lamb brings inner freedom, and it cleanses us from sin.
We overcome Satan by the blood of the Lamb, by the blood of the Lamb, and the word of our testimony.
So if correction is refused, by rejecting the correction, it binds the person, but if correction is received, it frees the person.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 12:59:00 GMT -5
And when we think of the word loosed, I think all of the defining words should come to mind, such as loosen, break up, destroy, dissolve, melt, put off, and free fully, relieve, release, dismiss, let die, let go, set at liberty.
And maybe people who speak Greek tend to think of all or many of these words combined as they speak the word loosed in Greek.
But anyhow, the word itself through the woman being loosed of her infirmity, kind of says it all.
Things are destroyed, dissolved, loosened, put off, and as a result a release, a setting free, a setting at liberty happens.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 13:09:44 GMT -5
Whether it be binding and loosing prayer wise, or binding and loosing correction wise, in the loosing realm, it will bring freedom to the person from their bondage.
And even on the correction side, it can lead the person being corrected to praying to God in repentance.
And many times as a result of that, the person will also seek to make it right with the person they done wrong to.
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Post by Giller on Jan 16, 2020 14:31:05 GMT -5
Prayer of agreement
Mat 18:19 (19) Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.
This is the prayer of agreement, which in this prayer you can be believing in agreement for someone to be healed, set free of some bondage, but also you can be believing for someone to repent of their sin.
Mat 18:15-18 (15) Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. (16) But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. (17) And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. (18) Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Gaining your brother is something positive, and you have gained your brother because he repented of his sin, and was loosed of his sin by the blood of the Lamb.
The blood of the Lamb cleansed the person from his sin, and his bondage has been dissolved, and any spirit that had a hold on him, concerning this bondage has been put off.
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Post by John on Jan 16, 2020 16:45:47 GMT -5
It is true that the word translated loosed, like many other words, has more than one definition and way it can be used, so it is possible that in some instances, it is saying to destroy, while in another, it would be more like to untie. One thing I do see as obvious is that it makes no sense to "loose" angels to go forth on our behalf. I am not aware of the word translated loose meaning to send forth. It also doesn't work in regard to loosing the Holy Spirit, because He is not bound.
I know that in that one instance, Jesus did tell the woman with the infirmity, "Woman, thou art loosed from thine infirmity," before he laid his hands on her. That didn't seem to be so much a prayer, as it came across as a statement of fact. Do you know of any instances in the Bible where people prayed in a way where they were taking authority over demonic spirits by saying something like, "I bind you" and "I loose you?" I can't think of any off the top of my head, but still, we are told that we had the power to bind and loose.
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