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Post by Giller on Sept 22, 2018 0:47:17 GMT -5
How should I say this, God is a good God and can save anyone who comes to him with genuine repentance.
I do not judge if someone is saved or not having said the sinners prayer, God knows the heart, but also I do not encourage this method of doing things or of leading people to Christ in this manner, for it really is not scriptural.
Here is an example of what the bible says:
Act 16:27-32 (27) And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled. (28) But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here. (29) Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, (30) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? (31) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. (32) And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
What Paul and Silas did was show the keeper of the prison how to get saved, and then spake things as concerns the word to him and all that were in his house.
No evidence of leading them in a sinners prayer, just showing them how to get saved.
1Co 3:6 (6) I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
Our job is to plant and water the seed, but it is God's job to bring the increase, and we must trust that God will fulfill his word, but too many times we want to bring in the increase, and many preachers boast about leading so many into the sinners prayer, but how many of them truly got saved?
How many just repeated the prayer because a preacher told them to do so?
God does not want another man's prayer, he wants your prayer, he wants to hear you heart, he wants to hear your genuine cry.
What is needed in the body of Christ is not the sinners prayer, but rather the power of God.
We need to walk in the anointing, and I have heard of many revivals were they did not need the sinners prayer at all and many came to Christ.
The word of God has to be planted in hearts, and then it grows, and then eventually faith arises, and then their is a cry of faith that is made.
It is their faith in God, and not your faith for them in God.
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Post by Giller on Sept 22, 2018 15:15:23 GMT -5
Of course if an unbeliever wants me to pray for him so he can receive the Lord, I would certainly pray with them, but I would not pray with them and say to them, repeat after me this sinner's prayer, but rather I would build up faith in them, so that they have confidence that God will answer their prayer, and that God will receive them, and save them, if they just accept what he did at the cross etc.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 24, 2018 4:14:08 GMT -5
When I first started working I had several jobs in restaurants/cafes as a dishwasher. I am not the kind of person to want to be your waiter or host. no. put me in the back in my own little world and let me stay busy. I cant speak on what a preacher does or dont do if its right to say this or that but i will get to that in a little bit, but I have been used by God and thru me He has preached to and saved HUNDREDS. people i met at a store, or on the street while i was walking somewhere or when i was working at a ministry. I never spoke to a crowd, or should i say God never spoke thru me to crowds but to individuals. I had no idea what I was going to say. The Spirit fell on me and spoke, just took over my mouth. at the end, If I felt like God was leading there was a sinners prayer. each prayer was different. each time I knew by The Spirit they were about to get saved. each time that sweet sweet aroma was in the air once they had prayed... because they did get saved. each prayer was different. each prayer was led by Him. the sinners prayer.
I can understand how some churches/pastors do this sinners prayer may be watered down and not sincere but only geared for numbers, results, charts, money, etc. But I would just encourage people to think about this. what will your response be to God if He asks you one day... why did you not pray with them? I have seen a man told no you can go pray by yourself, because the preacher thought he was begging for a handout. but the man wanted nothing more than someone to pray with him. I went outside with the man. He asked for nothing other than prayer. so what if the situation is different. are we not to be about our Fathers business? Jesus Christ came to seek and save. The Holy Ghost has used the sinners prayer thru my mouth more times than I know. God honors His word. repent of sin, believe Jesus was crucified for your sins and rose the third day, accept Him as Lord of your life and ask Him into your heart... and say it outloud JESUS is LORD.
I tell you of a certainty, the prayer is not the issue... its not spending the time with them to know that they know whats the what on the salvation of The Lord. Love your neighbor as yourself. if you didnt know God wouldnt you like for someone to help you get started. isnt it the polite thing to do to properly introduce someone, especially a guest in your house(Gods house but it will suffice)? Something as important as eternity... should we not make sure that those who come down at altar call have all seeds sown they will need? I have heard entire sermons and nothing about salvation... and then all the sudden... if you dont know Jesus, if you have never been saved wont you come down right now. are we to assume they understand the fall of man and how adam and eve became disconnected from God? the importance of I was afraid so i hid? a shepherd takes care of his sheep. makes sure they got the good green grass to nibble, good clean water. the prayer is fine. Its the approach.
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 8:34:56 GMT -5
How should I say this, of course I will not judge someone if they are saved or not while saying the sinners prayer, and I do believe in praying for them, but the repeat after me method of praying is not scriptural.
Now you can give them an example prayer, or share how you got saved and what you done, but church history wise, this repeat after me prayer method is not that old of a method.
There was a time that none of this was needed, and God is the same, yesterday, today and forever.
Were just the power of God, and conviction of the spirit brought people on their knees.
That is the examples we see in the bible, and I want to stick to the bible.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 24, 2018 9:18:04 GMT -5
How should i say this, of course I will not judge someone if they are saved or not while saying the sinners prayer... Salvation is by grace through faith, this means that the person must receive faith from God Himself, this is knowledge of truth that lead them to repentance.
And obviously, truth can only be given by God.
Then no, it is not by merely saying a sinner's prayer or such, the person must seek and receive the knowledge of truth so that they can know the truth and repent.
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." - Jeremiah 29:13
"But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him." - Hebrews 11:6
And the person knows when they have found it.
Then instead of asking people if they have prayed a sinner's prayer, we should ask them: Do you know the truth?
If the person has doubts, or do not even know what you are talking about then encourage them to repent and seek the truth.
"Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you." - Acts 8:22
That is the only thing that can save them - the knowledge of truth - which can only be given by God.
"Jesus said to him, I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." - John 14:6
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." - Jeremiah 29:13
When the person receives the knowledge of truth, repentance and confession of sins is just automatic as the Spirit will lead the person to do so.
"Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance." - 2 Corinthians 7:9
And no, a sinner's prayer does not save. It is the knowledge of truth given by God, and repentance after it that saves. By grace, through faith.
"...If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." - John 8:31-32
"And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world..." - Ephesians 2:1-2
"Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed." - John 8:36
The person who is saved, or has found the truth know they have found it. God gives certainty, perfect assurance and faith.
"For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints." - 1 Corinthians 14:33
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 10:58:08 GMT -5
2fw8212a said:
Salvation is by grace through faith, this means that the person must receive faith from God Himself, this is knowledge of truth that lead them to repentance.
And obviously, truth can only be given by God.
Then no, it is not by merely saying a sinner's prayer or such, the person must seek and receive the knowledge of truth so that they can know the truth and repent.
"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart." - Jeremiah 29:13 |
Absolutely it is by grace through faith. Of course the sinners prayer all by itself is not what saves, but the person needs to believe what the truth is as concerns getting saved, they need to receive God's method of salvation, which is through Jesus Christ and what he has done on the cross. I really like this next scripture: Rom 10:9-10 (9) That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (10) For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. A seed of truth is planted, but they need to believe this truth with their heart, and the holy Spirit convicts their hearts with the truth, so that the person can be brought to repentance. It is God drawing the person unto himself. And also the word says this: 1Co 1:21 (21) For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe. The word must be proclaimed, and the word shows that one plants, one waters and God brings the increase. Now the sinner's prayer, as become a method, a format of how to lead people to Christ, which is not scriptural, for it is God that draws the people. Now it may be that certain people who do say the repeat after me sinners prayer, were truly planted the truths of God's word of how to get saved before hand, and they may have truly believed it in their heart. Thus despite themselves, and them praying a sinner's prayer, may have gotten truly saved, and are now truly and genuinely confessing Christ, but despite this, I must ask the question, how many have truly gotten saved and have said the repeat after me sinner's prayer? How many have truly believe the truth in their hearts having said the sinner's prayer? So I will not judge who has and who has not gotten saved, but I will say this, that I believe that more people would be saved without having this method, because it is not scriptural. And here is an example of the thief on the cross: Luk 23:39-43 (39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. (40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. No repeat after me prayer here. Let us abandon the methods and doctrines of men, and let us follow the example of the bible.
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Cletus
Senior Member
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Post by Cletus on Sept 24, 2018 11:17:04 GMT -5
How should i say this, of course I will not judge someone if they are saved or not while saying the sinners prayer, and I do believe in praying for them, but the repeat after me method of praying is not scriptural. Now you can give them an example prayer, or share how you got saved and what you done, but church history wise, this repeat after me prayer method is not that old of a method. There was a time that none of this was needed, and God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. Were just the power of God, and conviction of the spirit brought people on their knees. That is the examples we see in the bible, and I want to stick to the bible. Interesting. You made me think of something. I usually lead them in prayer but I had them pray it for themselves, ussually there was a disscusson on the prayer before the prayer and the only part that was repeat what I said was Jesus Is Lord.
I am unaware of where in the bible the repeat after me method is deemed unscriptural... could you point me to it?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 24, 2018 11:23:23 GMT -5
And here is an example of the thief on the cross: Luk 23:39-43 (39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. (40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Many people like to use the example of the thief being saved at the cross to skip sanctification and deny the Holy Spirit.
It is a dangerous thing to do, and no one, I repeat no one who have received and accepted the knowledge of truth will do such thing.
People ignores what happens in the spiritual realm and the conviction that draws people to God with a contrite and sincere heart.
That is what happened to the thief at the cross. He did not simply say a word out of his mouth.
He received both knowledge and faith from God to do that.
What we are seeing today is that many are teaching others that if they say a sinner prayer presumptuously (without faith) they are already saved and there is nothing more they can do.
And by the fruits we can see the results of such practice:
People who avoid at all costs being obedient to God with the pretext that it is not through works.
Consequently, after believing in such deception their hearts are just hardened to any who preach the truth to them.
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters." - Luke 11:23
As Jesus said, not all who say to me Lord, Lord shall enter in the kingdom but he who does (by faith) the will of my Father in heaven.
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality, that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor..." - 1 Thessalonians 4:4
"For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men..." - 1 Peter 2:15
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:16
"...but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." - Matthew 5:13
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 11:37:11 GMT -5
And here is an example of the thief on the cross: Luk 23:39-43 (39) And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. (40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Many people like to use the example of the thief being saved at the cross to skip sanctification and deny the Holy Spirit.
It is a dangerous thing to do, and no one, I repeat no one who have received and accepted the knowledge of truth will do such thing.
People ignores what happens in the spiritual realm and the conviction that draws people to God with a contrite and sincere heart.
That is what happened to the thief at the cross. He did not simply say a word out of his mouth.
He received both knowledge and faith from God to do that.
What we are seeing today is that many are teaching others that if they say a sinner prayer presumptuously (without faith) they are already saved and there is nothing more they can do.
And by the fruits we can see the results of such practice:
People who avoid at all costs being obedient to God with the pretext that it is not through works.
Consequently, after believing in such deception their hearts are just hardened to any who preach the truth to them.
"He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters." - Luke 11:23
As Jesus said, not all who say to me Lord, Lord shall enter in the kingdom but he who does (by faith) the will of my Father in heaven.
"For this is the will of God, your sanctification: that you should abstain from sexual immorality, that each of you should know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor..." - 1 Thessalonians 4:4
"For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men..." - 1 Peter 2:15
"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven." - Matthew 5:16
"...but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men." - Matthew 5:13Oh I totally agree that the thief on the cross received both knowledge and truth and he was drawn to God, I never said anything against this, I mentioned about being drawn in my post. I may not have expanded on the thought of the thief, but I never denied that one must be drawn.
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 11:40:36 GMT -5
I truly find that the dangers of the repeat after me sinner's prayer, is that it can cause people to have faith in the sinner's prayer to be saved, rather than have faith in God.
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 11:45:00 GMT -5
You mentioned these words 2fw8212a : "People who avoid at all costs being obedient to God with the pretext that it is not through works."
What are you meaning by this, are you saying that men are saved by works?
Or if someone says he is saved it will result in works?
Eph 2:8-10 (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 24, 2018 12:14:40 GMT -5
You mentioned these words 2fw8212a : "People who avoid at all costs being obedient to God with the pretext that it is not through works." What are you meaning by this, are you saying that men are saved by works? Or if someone says he is saved it will result in works? Eph 2:8-10 (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It is by grace through faith, but many people have a wrong understanding of faith.
Genuine faith has works confirming that such faith is valid.
"...by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." - Deuteronomy 19:15
Will my wife believe I love her if I just say to her:
I love you.
And my works say exactly the opposite?! Wouldn't that sound hypocritical?!
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6
"...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
I may want to love her, but my works say that I currently do not love her enough to convince any that I love her.
"...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." - John 14:23
In the same way, saying that I love God is enough. My works must bear witness of my confession of faith.
"I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." - John 8:18
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also..." - John 14:12
"And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." - Acts 5:32
Blessings in Jesus' name!
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Post by Giller on Sept 24, 2018 12:29:37 GMT -5
You mentioned these words 2fw8212a : "People who avoid at all costs being obedient to God with the pretext that it is not through works." What are you meaning by this, are you saying that men are saved by works? Or if someone says he is saved it will result in works? Eph 2:8-10 (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. (10) For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. It is by grace through faith, but many people have a wrong understanding of faith.
Genuine faith has works confirming that such faith is valid.
"...by the mouth of two or three witnesses the matter shall be established." - Deuteronomy 19:15
Will my wife believe I love her if I just say to her:
I love you.
And my works say exactly the opposite?! Wouldn't that sound hypocritical?!
"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." - James 2:26
"If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth." - 1 John 1:6
"...and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." - Revelation 21:8
I may want to love her, but my works say that I currently do not love her enough to convince any that I love her.
"...If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him." - John 14:23
In the same way, saying that I love God is enough. My works must bear witness of my confession of faith.
"I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me." - John 8:18
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also..." - John 14:12
"And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him." - Acts 5:32
Blessings in Jesus' name!Thanks for clarifying, and yes true faith will result in works, works of course does not save us, but true biblical faith will result in works, but not just works for the sake of works, but rather works that has resulted in being sanctified by Christ.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Sept 24, 2018 15:10:24 GMT -5
I truly find that the dangers of the repeat after me sinner's prayer, is that it can cause people to have faith in the sinner's prayer to be saved, rather than have faith in God. not trying to disagree that it does not however, I am asking for something actually in the bible where it states its unscriptural.
what you are saying here is still, in a sense, backing up what I said originally, which is the prayer is fine, but its the approach, the application, or rather the lack of application of preaching/teaching the gospel.
If we spend the time with someone and explain the gospel, explain the need for a savior, explain it is by grace thru faith, the prayer is not hindered.
Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 24, 2018 15:29:34 GMT -5
In no way do I believe that doing a sinners prayer is NON scriptural . ITS TRULY what is n the heart of the one DOING that prayer. example . a preacher gets up does a speech on how IF you come to GOD you can have the blessed life with money . THAT person that goes down , went down NOT to be saved , BUT FOR THE BLESSINGS of GET THAT MONEY . thus MONEY is their god . IF a person goes down ,EVEN after a good preaching on salvation and repentance, BUT is just doing it to make his mama happy , THEN AGAIN he is not saved . IF a person GUIENLY was led to repentance and prays it , THEN HE IS saved . BECAUSE ONLY GOD can lead one TO REPENTANCE in the FIRST PLACE . Cletus , YOU RIGHT its what is in that persons heart . AND I am going to give us a reminder , I THINK we all KNOW already . Most folks are hearing the message by the WAY SIDE seed mentality , Not the seed planted IN the HEART but rather on their lusts . THEY came to JESUS for all the wrong reasons . AND something else this sorry seeker friendly did , IF one comes to JESUS , but don't realize they a sinner , DUE TO now today its a sin to expose SIN as sin . HOW on earth are they really seeing themselves FROM the HEART as a SINNER and thus AINT COMING to JESUS as THE SAVOIR , but rather the provider of their own hearts lusts and desires . Folks I seen it way too often with this seeker friendly dung . a gay goes down to receive the prayer , is told YOU SAVED YET STAYS GAY , and thinks all is well . WELL , what was he saved from , SURELY NOT FROM darkness or HE WOLD HAVE REPENTED . Folks this generation is in dire trouble and mark these next words well. CHURCHES and synagogues who have replaced truth with lies and call good evil and evil good , THE WIND you have sown , YE SHALL REAP the whirlwind . sow to wind , AND ITS A WHIRLWIND that comes forth of that vanity .
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