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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2018 9:27:02 GMT -5
It is not even the scripted that is my true focus. Butero gave an example of the Lord's prayer.
I even mentioned that I would pray with someone and sometimes I can give them an example prayer.
Now can things become too scripted at times sure.
So can God give words for someone to pray? Well of course he actually does so quite often.
None of that is my objection.
It is not scripted vs non scripted.
As I mentioned many times, one plants, one waters but God gives the increase.
Even with Moses, God would tell him to read this or that, or say this or that, then Moses had to decided whether to do so or not, in the examples of the bible that is what God does, he gives the instructions, and sometimes encourages people to follow the instructions, but he is never impatient with the person, and says well they are not obeying me, maybe now I will have to get them to repeat after me.
God is a gentleman and he will provoke people, he will quicken them, but he will not force someone to obey, not even saying it in a nice way, but having caused the people to just now repeat my words.
It gets planted and watered, and God brings the increase, but he leaves the seed grow, until it can sprout, and that is what we must do, is leave the seed grow until it sprouts, and we do not want to interfere with God's work, and that is my concern, yes we are enthusiastic about leading people to Christ, which we should be, but let God do his work, and encourage people to receive the Lord, because he has to bring them to the end of themselves, and sometimes we do not allow that process to be, and then one day they muster up the courage to confess Christ, and that is how it happened to me, and like I said i will not judge if someone got saved or not, and said the repeat after me prayer, but really how effective is it really?
But praise be to God whoever is truly saved.
So my concern is more the process you can say, I just do not want to be one who hinders God's work.
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PG4Him
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Posts: 3,570
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2018 9:38:46 GMT -5
It is not even the scripted that is my true focus. Butero gave an example of the Lord's prayer. I even mentioned that I would pray with someone and sometimes I can give them an example prayer. Now can things become too scripted at times sure. So can God give words for someone to pray? Well of course he actually does so quite often. None of that is my objection. It is not scripted vs non scripted. As I mentioned many times, one plants, one waters but God gives the increase. Even with Moses, God would tell him to read this or that, or say this or that, then Moses had to decided whether to do so or not, in the examples of the bible that is what God does, he gives the instructions, and sometimes encourages people to follow the instructions, but he is never impatient with the person, and says well they are not obeying me, maybe now I will have to get them to repeat after me. God is a gentleman and he will provoke people, he will quicken them, but he will not force someone to obey, not even saying it in a nice way, but having caused the people to just now repeat my words. It gets planted and watered, and God brings the increase, but he leaves the seed grow, until it can sprout, and that is what we must do, is leave the seed grow until it sprouts, and we do not want to interfere with God's work, and that is my concern, yes we are enthusiastic about leading people to Christ, which we should be, but let God do his work, and encourage people to receive the Lord, because he has to bring them to the end of themselves, and sometimes we do not allow that process to be, and then one day they muster up the courage to confess Christ, and that is how it happened to me, and like I said i will not judge if someone got saved or not, and said the repeat after me prayer, but really how effective is it really? But praise be to God whoever is truly saved. So my concern is more the process you can say, I just do not want to be one who hinders God's work. So your main objection is putting words in someone's mouth when he/she isn't really mentally prepared to say those words?
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Post by Giller on Sept 26, 2018 9:54:22 GMT -5
It is not even the scripted that is my true focus. Butero gave an example of the Lord's prayer. I even mentioned that I would pray with someone and sometimes I can give them an example prayer. Now can things become too scripted at times sure. So can God give words for someone to pray? Well of course he actually does so quite often. None of that is my objection. It is not scripted vs non scripted. As I mentioned many times, one plants, one waters but God gives the increase. Even with Moses, God would tell him to read this or that, or say this or that, then Moses had to decided whether to do so or not, in the examples of the bible that is what God does, he gives the instructions, and sometimes encourages people to follow the instructions, but he is never impatient with the person, and says well they are not obeying me, maybe now I will have to get them to repeat after me. God is a gentleman and he will provoke people, he will quicken them, but he will not force someone to obey, not even saying it in a nice way, but having caused the people to just now repeat my words. It gets planted and watered, and God brings the increase, but he leaves the seed grow, until it can sprout, and that is what we must do, is leave the seed grow until it sprouts, and we do not want to interfere with God's work, and that is my concern, yes we are enthusiastic about leading people to Christ, which we should be, but let God do his work, and encourage people to receive the Lord, because he has to bring them to the end of themselves, and sometimes we do not allow that process to be, and then one day they muster up the courage to confess Christ, and that is how it happened to me, and like I said i will not judge if someone got saved or not, and said the repeat after me prayer, but really how effective is it really? But praise be to God whoever is truly saved. So my concern is more the process you can say, I just do not want to be one who hinders God's work. So your main objection is putting words in someone's mouth when he/she isn't really mentally prepared to say those words? A big chunk of it is that, but also to follow after the examples of the bible, which is said that it is there for our admonition.
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PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2018 10:07:55 GMT -5
I don’t see where any of us are in serious disagreement. Jesus might give us a script or a template here or there, but scripts can’t bring about salvation, and the Bible doesn’t give us a scripted salvation prayer. Sounds like we are all saying the same thing in different ways.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 26, 2018 10:11:37 GMT -5
We need to be very careful as not to create the wrong kind of doubt or confusion . What is wrong with asking OH Lord come into my heart , examine me . Its not the format that is wrong and if we attack even the petty things , HOW on earth are we then going to be able to help the others . Asking the Lord , His spirit to enter into us , IS not wrong. Think about WHO they are asking to come reside within them . IF we attack this , then we are really being way too petty . What we need to do is ONLY examine THE WALK , the walk , their fruits will tell us , WHETHER The conversion was VALID or phoney . This is something we need to understand . Tell a person , or give the idea to a person that the sinners prayer they prayed was wrong And you aint helping anyone . EXAMINE THIER FRUITS . To determine whether one is truly following CHRIST , EXAMINE THIER FRUITS . Don't waste time attacking the sinners prayer. To get to the heart of the matter, WE NEED ONLY to examine HOW THEY ARE WALKING TO determine who or what they are following . Their is no need to attack the conversion , the FRUITS of a person WILL quickly identify whether the conversion was real , was false or was real and they are in dire need of help or correction . EITHER way , simply examine them by their fruits . THIS will stop a whole lot of strife too . We don't need to strive over THIS , instead we need to examine the walk , YE SHALL KNOW them BY THEIR FRUITS . THAT is how we KNOW who follows Christ . BY HIS SPIRIT we can discern between error and truth . For example , if a new believer or even an older one , comes on here and sees the attacking of a conversion , that is liable to run them off. WHEN in truth , WE OUGHT to be EXAMINING the walk . THE WALK . I mean that is HOW we truly KNOW who is OF HIM . A true conversion FROM GOD , CHANGES the heart within . EXAMINE THE WALK , and build up IN TRUE DOCTRINE .
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Post by John on Sept 26, 2018 10:16:47 GMT -5
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them, The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." Numbers 6:22-27
The Lord clearly doesn't object to scripted in all cases.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 26, 2018 10:31:12 GMT -5
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them, The LORD bless thee, and keep thee: The LORD make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee: The LORD lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace. And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel; and I will bless them." Numbers 6:22-27 The Lord clearly doesn't object to scripted in all cases.
Exactly . Something the LORD showed me very , very , very early on . I will give some examples that should help us see this . Some folks fight over whether songs should be sung with instruments or without . But here is the key . I have seen folks singing with great praise in churches , OH they praise the LORD Yet walk in sin and darkness . EXAMINE THIER WALK to determine , examine their fruits to determine . Some may have prayed the sinners prayer and some may not have prayed a scripted prayer . BUT , YE SHALL KNOW THEM by their fruits , THAT ALONE determines IF the conversion IS VALID . Another example , some fight and strive if they see a man speaking in tongues Some conclude OH HE MUST BE OF GOD , OTHERS say NO WAY tongues is not correct. AGAIN this is not going to tell us who follows CHRIST or WHO DOES NOT . instead , EXAMINE THIER WALK . you will see by their walk WHO ALONE they are following . We can rush right past the wrong strife , and then when we see the error in them , WE CORRECT THEM . EXAMINE THIER WALK . THIS IS the true way of determining WHO is of HIM and WHO is either in error and needs correction , OR flat out don't follow HIM . I cant stress this enough . EXAMINE their fruits . THAT Determines who they follow. Another example How many men do we see WHO can say the RIGHT things , can appear righteous, But with the same mouth are both teaching and planting lies . YOU got to examine the walk of the man . Don't take for granted ONE is lost , OR that one is a true teacher, YOU EXAMINE THEM and test them . WE know a true lamb By their fruits . We know a double minded man , By his fruits . Examine both what they teach , AND < oh DEAR AND HOW THEY WALK . because many deceivers abound who at times can appear to be very righteous ,even teaching truths at times , YET always their error will be seen IF they are in or teach an error , IT WILL SURFACE it always DOES . ALWAYS DOES . So lets just keep it simple and do as JESUS said . YE shall know them by their fruits . and its real easy to see a hearer only , from one who hears and does . Focus ON their walk .
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