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Post by Giller on Sept 25, 2018 12:26:56 GMT -5
In fact in our prayers we recite scriptures all the time, so it is not the recitation in and of itself that I am against, it is this having to repeat after a person in the realm of salvation that I am not for, for example wise it is not there, it just ain't.
It is the holy Spirit which directs, and even prompts unbeliever's hearts to himself, which cause a cry of repentance in them.
We really do need the power of God, more than what we give credit for.
What a fellowship, what a joy divine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms;
What a blessedness, what a peace is mine,
Leaning on the everlasting arms.
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Post by Giller on Sept 25, 2018 12:37:29 GMT -5
People especially in the seeker sensitive group, make all kinds of laws so to replace the need to be lead of the Spirit or to rely on his leading.
Let us be careful, please let us be careful.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2018 12:48:41 GMT -5
Of course we are under a new covenant now. And God always gives an example of something if it is this or that. Sure we should mention scripture when praying, with the leading of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit completely indwells us now. I do not know too much about this Sh'ma recitation, I know some things come from the old testament and others do not. Whatever God told them to do under the old covenant, that is what they should have done. And even Lord's prayer wise, it was not repeat after me, but rather an example prayer, and if in your prayer you are lead of the Spirit to recite it, from a true heart, then praise God. But salvation wise from Acts and on wards, the examples was not a formula of repeating after someone in prayer, it is just not there, so if it is not there, it just ain't. And I would rather go on the side of caution, rather than lean on something I was raised on, and have no caution at all. And remember that we are under a New covenant. It is all in the leading of Spirit, and that is not legalism. I believe there is a reason one gospel says to pray the Lord's prayer word for word and another in like manner. I believe I am free to do either if I mean it. Luke is just as much Bible as Matthew.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2018 12:51:56 GMT -5
People especially in the seeker sensitive group, make all kinds of laws so to replace the need to be lead of the Spirit or to rely on his leading. Let us be careful, please let us be careful. This isn't about making a law. It is just that some people need help with their prayers like the disciples did.
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Post by Giller on Sept 25, 2018 13:22:59 GMT -5
I guess for now I will leave it at that, maybe later people will get it, and accept the examples that are there.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2018 13:30:49 GMT -5
Why is that legalism is always presumed to be against "spiritual" life? Pressuring people to avoid conviction in the name of being more spiritual is indeed another species of legalism.
Example: We are free in Christ to not hold strict man-made standards on dress or makeup. Okay, fine. But suppose I say I don't feel comfortable with mini-skirts at church. As soon as these words come out of my mouth, someone will invariably tell me to stop judging. I'm just a prude who relies on traditional values. So the only way for me to avoid being called a prude is to keep my mouth shut and go with the flow. Yeah, that's liberty alright.
If we're banning scripted prayers to promote more spiritual liberty, we are not exactly setting people free. That wasn't Paul's intention with Galatians.
Here's a telling comment from Luke 11:
And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.
That's pretty close to "say these words." It does sound an awful lot like a script.
I'm not switching over to defend a scripted sinner's prayer, but we can't toss out babies in bathwater.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 25, 2018 13:31:43 GMT -5
I guess for now I will leave it at that, maybe later people will get it, and accept the examples that are there. Maybe later people will get it? Please tell me you don't talk that way to elders in your church.
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Post by Abby-Joy on Sept 25, 2018 14:36:53 GMT -5
I truly find that the dangers of the repeat after me sinner's prayer, is that it can cause people to have faith in the sinner's prayer to be saved, rather than have faith in God. I know that after I was first led in the sinner's prayer at age 10, I knew I wasn't saved (or whatever that word meant... I had no clue!?!) ... I wanted to be "saved" but had no clue what it meant, even after saying the prayer. But the Lord did speak to me ongoingly from that point. I truly don't know for sure if I began hearing Him (Jesus) speak to me before or after repeating the prayer. But it was around that same time. So it was definitely a seed that was planted. I finally surrendered when I was 13 yrs old.
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Post by John on Sept 25, 2018 15:42:24 GMT -5
I am not dogmatic for or against a sinner's prayer, but the person must understand what they are doing for it to be effective. I was raised Methodist, and we had what they called confirmation. I didn't understand it, and wasn't really saved till several years later. Understanding what you are doing and being sincere are the key.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 25, 2018 20:38:26 GMT -5
Understanding what you are doing and being sincere are the key.
Then it is like prophesying to your own life. Even if you do not know how it will happen, you believe God will do what you are asking.
"For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says." - Mark 11:23
"...I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy." - Romans 9:15-16
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Post by frienduff on Sept 25, 2018 21:13:13 GMT -5
I guess for now I will leave it at that, maybe later people will get it, and accept the examples that are there. Giller . I don't care what the pope thinks about ya , OL frienduff loves ya .
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Post by Giller on Sept 25, 2018 23:11:07 GMT -5
I guess for now I will leave it at that, maybe later people will get it, and accept the examples that are there. Maybe later people will get it? Please tell me you don't talk that way to elders in your church. For me i did not find that to be nasty, I would not take offence if someone said that to me, because i do not know everything, if there is something that I do not see right now, then maybe I will get it later. And it was not said in the way you think I portrayed it, sometimes when you are talking face to face, sometimes you get it more in what way it was said. I know you might correct me for his, I do not mind correction, I just have to know why this is that or that is this, because i like to understand the why. And i am very concerned about this issue, I am not trying to abase anyone, it is truly how I feel about the issue.
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Post by Giller on Sept 25, 2018 23:26:46 GMT -5
PG4HIM said: "If we're banning scripted prayers to promote more spiritual liberty, we are not exactly setting people free. That wasn't Paul's intention with Galatians."
I never said i was banning scripted prayer such as the Lord's prayer and such like.
But the example I see in the bible, even in Old Testament times, is that God told people what to do, and what to say now and again, and people had to choose whether to obey it or not, .
But I see no example of whether in the Old or New, of God having to have them to repeat after him this or that, he gave the command and it was up to the people to obey.
I think that the process of the repeat after me sinner's prayer, often times can hinder the work of the Holy Spirit, because God does not force someone to repeat after him a prayer, but rather he encourages the people to put their faith in him, it is God drawing them unto himself, but sometimes we are impatient with what God is doing, therefore often times we premature the process.
Now you may not care about what I have to say, at least it feels that way, but I am truly concerned about this issue, and I have given examples, but it seems to not be considered.
Oh well I guess we will really have to leave it at that, because i do not like arguments, I really don't.
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Post by justinadams on Sept 26, 2018 4:29:07 GMT -5
I am not dogmatic for or against a sinner's prayer, but the person must understand what they are doing for it to be effective. I was raised Methodist, and we had what they called confirmation. I didn't understand it, and wasn't really saved till several years later. Understanding what you are doing and being sincere are the key.
Methodism was Wesley's way of organizing the C of E. The C of E was King Henry's answer to the rule of Rome. Confirmation is the same really in the C of E, the RCC and Orthodoxy. It 'confirms' with the mind and the body the act of baptism that you parents or guardians undertook for you when you were a baby. There are absolutely loads of hand-me-downs from the RCC that few recognize.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 26, 2018 8:59:49 GMT -5
Giller, I think I understand where we're misfiring. Put aside the issue of praying for salvation. Let's just ignore that for a minute. Suppose we all agree that salvation is an experience no one can script. Does that mean scripted prayers can never be a thing in your spiritual walk? Can Jesus not give us one script of something that pleases the Father? Jews didn't quote the Sh'ma to atone for their sins or commune with God. They quoted it out of respect. They used it as an anthem to remind them what daily life was all about. Can Christians not have something similar? I'm not attacking you, neither am I doing a gotcha. I'm trying to pull this down to a baseline and establish your position on this.
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