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Heaven
Jun 20, 2019 8:20:09 GMT -5
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Post by solid on Jun 20, 2019 8:20:09 GMT -5
They are claiming the comma should come after today. Look how that comes out. "Jesus said today, thou shalt be with me in paradise." Why the need to tell everyone Jesus said that today? We know when he said it. This is good direction to go - question everything,
IF , and ONLY IF, you are SEEKING THE TRUTH, and KEEP SEEKING THE TRUTH.The answer to your seeking will be found, as long as you are seeking the truth, and keep seeking the truth. (I can't tell if you are seeking the truth, or mocking it here) Once you find the truth, as God Promises, the truth will set you free. (from the errors, from sin, and from the enemy/ false teaching) I am saying that moving the comma makes no sense.
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Cletus
Senior Member
Posts: 2,517
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Heaven
Jun 20, 2019 14:41:56 GMT -5
Post by Cletus on Jun 20, 2019 14:41:56 GMT -5
greek and hebrew had no commas, so if we really want to know whats being said we are going to have to research it out.
(KJV+) AndG2532 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto him,G846 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto thee,G4671 To dayG4594 shalt thou beG2071 withG3326 meG1700 inG1722 paradise.G3857
all the words here are in present tense... I looked it up in my greek INT.
G4594 σήμερον sēmeron say'-mer-on Neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article G3588 (“tau” changed to “sigma”) and G2250; on the (that is, this) day (or night current or just passed); genitively now (that is, at present, hitherto): - this (to-) day. Total KJV occurrences: 41
notice this is the adverb. an adverb is a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).
if you look in greek NT with strongs numbers #3588(the compound of the article is the one being spoken to... it dont show in KJV+ strongs.
in every single possible way this scripture says the very day Jesus and the other fella being crucified with Jesus, would give up the Ghost, and on that very exact same day, be together.
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Heaven
Jun 20, 2019 14:44:26 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jun 20, 2019 14:44:26 GMT -5
greek and hebrew had no commas, so if we really want to know whats being said we are going to have to research it out.
(KJV+) AndG2532 JesusG2424 saidG2036 unto him,G846 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto thee,G4671 To dayG4594 shalt thou beG2071 withG3326 meG1700 inG1722 paradise.G3857
all the words here are in present tense... I looked it up in my greek INT.
G4594 σήμερον sēmeron say'-mer-on Neuter (as adverb) of a presumed compound of the article G3588 (“tau” changed to “sigma”) and G2250; on the (that is, this) day (or night current or just passed); genitively now (that is, at present, hitherto): - this (to-) day. Total KJV occurrences: 41
notice this is the adverb. an adverb is a word or phrase that modifies or qualifies an adjective, verb, or other adverb or a word group, expressing a relation of place, time, circumstance, manner, cause, degree, etc. (e.g., gently, quite, then, there ).
if you look in greek NT with strongs numbers #3588(the compound of the article is the one being spoken to... it dont show in KJV+ strongs.
in every single possible way this scripture says the very day Jesus and the other fella being crucified with Jesus, would give up the Ghost, and on that very exact same day, be together.
As written "knowledge puffs up, love edifies". It is impossible from and in Scripture to show that Jesus entered paradise in less than three days and three nights after He was crucified. This is fully explored and revealed on many sites online, so I won't try to do so here. (it doesn't appear to be desired, and it likely would take considerable time and effort)
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 14:22:47 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jul 10, 2019 14:22:47 GMT -5
Even Christ was not in paradise this day. i.e. mis-interpretation. When you have to blame a mistranslation to defend what you believe, and we are talking about the KJV Bible, the Bible isn't the problem. The rich man and Lazarus proves OT saints went to paradise. I don't remember and did not re-read today or recently to see if this was properly answered or not. No, the KJV does not prove any such thing. No Bible translation, even the original Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and Vulgate? shows that anyone went to paradise, sorry.
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 14:29:13 GMT -5
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Post by John on Jul 10, 2019 14:29:13 GMT -5
When you have to blame a mistranslation to defend what you believe, and we are talking about the KJV Bible, the Bible isn't the problem. The rich man and Lazarus proves OT saints went to paradise. I don't remember and did not re-read today or recently to see if this was properly answered or not. No, the KJV does not prove any such thing. No Bible translation, even the original Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and Vulgate? shows that anyone went to paradise, sorry. Every Bible I know of has that story of the rich man and Lazarus in paradise, and they also say that Jesus and the repentant thief were going to paradise the day Jesus was crucified.
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Post by joseph on Jul 10, 2019 14:53:49 GMT -5
I don't remember and did not re-read today or recently to see if this was properly answered or not. No, the KJV does not prove any such thing. No Bible translation, even the original Hebrew and Greek and Aramaic and Vulgate? shows that anyone went to paradise, sorry. Every Bible I know of has that story of the rich man and Lazarus in paradise, and they also say that Jesus and the repentant thief were going to paradise the day Jesus was crucified.
That is what you were taught, that is not what any Bible says. For clarity, if desired, see e.w.bullinger's 25 page pdf online concerning the deception plaguing all the churches that think that is true. He shows clearly that overcoming tradition of man is the biggest obstacle you and others face, and often are unwilling to keep seeking the truth when it is so different from man's tradition.
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 15:33:38 GMT -5
Post by John on Jul 10, 2019 15:33:38 GMT -5
Every Bible I know of has that story of the rich man and Lazarus in paradise, and they also say that Jesus and the repentant thief were going to paradise the day Jesus was crucified.
That is what you were taught, that is not what any Bible says. For clarity, if desired, see e.w.bullinger's 25 page pdf online concerning the deception plaguing all the churches that think that is true. He shows clearly that overcoming tradition of man is the biggest obstacle you and others face, and often are unwilling to keep seeking the truth when it is so different from man's tradition. It is in my Bible. If Bulliinger says different, he is the one that is wrong.
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Post by joseph on Jul 10, 2019 15:47:02 GMT -5
That is what you were taught, that is not what any Bible says. For clarity, if desired, see e.w.bullinger's 25 page pdf online concerning the deception plaguing all the churches that think that is true. He shows clearly that overcoming tradition of man is the biggest obstacle you and others face, and often are unwilling to keep seeking the truth when it is so different from man's tradition. It is in my Bible. If Bulliinger says different, he is the one that is wrong.
Your understanding is based upon false tradition of men, as also most religious groups do. This is very obvious and totally revealed from Scripture. E.W. Bullinger explains this clearly, along with others who do not follow man's tradition. It is difficult to find anyone not deceived by man's tradition, since man's tradition encompasses almost two thousand years and over 2 billion souls and countless false myths and fables.
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 15:51:38 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jul 10, 2019 15:51:38 GMT -5
This is good direction to go - question everything,
IF , and ONLY IF, you are SEEKING THE TRUTH, and KEEP SEEKING THE TRUTH.The answer to your seeking will be found, as long as you are seeking the truth, and keep seeking the truth. (I can't tell if you are seeking the truth, or mocking it here) Once you find the truth, as God Promises, the truth will set you free. (from the errors, from sin, and from the enemy/ false teaching) I am saying that moving the comma makes no sense. "HAVING" the comma in the wrong place, or at all perhaps, is NOT in the original. When the results of a passage are contradicting other passages, then something else makes no sense. The truth is in perfect harmony with the truth, completely - all scripture, all of God's Plan, all of God's Purpose is in perfect harmony with no contradictions. Man's tradition changed all that for over 2 billion souls for the last 2000 years almost (perhaps 1000 years?) .. Man's tradition is in almost everyone's repertoire EVEN when they don't realize it nor want it (because it contradicts God's Word) they might refuse to believe it is tradition even , the deception is so ingrained. THus, to find the truth, keep seeking the truth, because THEN as GOD PROMISES, the truth will be known, and the truth will set you free. (not just from man's tradition, but from whatever God says it will set you free from).
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 16:02:38 GMT -5
Post by John on Jul 10, 2019 16:02:38 GMT -5
It is in my Bible. If Bulliinger says different, he is the one that is wrong.
Your understanding is based upon false tradition of men, as also most religious groups do. This is very obvious and totally revealed from Scripture. E.W. Bullinger explains this clearly, along with others who do not follow man's tradition. It is difficult to find anyone not deceived by man's tradition, since man's tradition encompasses almost two thousand years and over 2 billion souls and countless false myths and fables. If he is the one teaching that it is because of punctuation mistakes in the KJV Bible we think the repentant thief and Jesus went to paradise on the day Jesus was crucified, I wasn't impressed. Why do you assume he is right? Why are you placing so much trust that this man is right over what he calls tradition?
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Heaven
Jul 10, 2019 16:13:54 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jul 10, 2019 16:13:54 GMT -5
Your understanding is based upon false tradition of men, as also most religious groups do. This is very obvious and totally revealed from Scripture. E.W. Bullinger explains this clearly, along with others who do not follow man's tradition. It is difficult to find anyone not deceived by man's tradition, since man's tradition encompasses almost two thousand years and over 2 billion souls and countless false myths and fables. If he is the one teaching that it is because of punctuation mistakes in the KJV Bible we think the repentant thief and Jesus went to paradise on the day Jesus was crucified, I wasn't impressed. Why do you assume he is right? Why are you placing so much trust that this man is right over what he calls tradition? Why do you think I assumed anything ? I did not. It must be tested and proven in line with ALL SCRIPTURE before I believe it. He is not the one teaching that it is because of punctuation mistakes.... That also may be tradition (at least sometimes) ..... i.e. more errors on top of other errors. There is no question at all concerning what is "tradition", it is not tradition because someone calls it tradition. What Jesus said concerning tradition is truth. And Jesus reveals this today also, through all His Word, by His Spirit . Do you realize that it is because of tradition, that there are so many denominations ? It is because of tradition, that the anti-christ, abomination of rome, ever started and grew in power and deceives billions of souls every day, today. It is because of tradition over the last thousands of years that so many myths and fables and errors and false doctrines are published and promoted in so many churches and groups today. The traditions of the ecf - how far back are they !? And they led to so many errors in the early centuries , built upon since then leading so many in error today.....
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Deleted
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2019 6:40:31 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 6:40:31 GMT -5
Your understanding is based upon false tradition of men, as also most religious groups do. This is very obvious and totally revealed from Scripture. E.W. Bullinger explains this clearly, along with others who do not follow man's tradition. It is difficult to find anyone not deceived by man's tradition, since man's tradition encompasses almost two thousand years and over 2 billion souls and countless false myths and fables. If he is the one teaching that it is because of punctuation mistakes in the KJV Bible we think the repentant thief and Jesus went to paradise on the day Jesus was crucified, I wasn't impressed. Why do you assume he is right? Why are you placing so much trust that this man is right over what he calls tradition? Just been reading some of this article which I would like to examine further, as I know nothing about who Bullinger is or what his believes are. ( The Anglo-Catholic Errors of E.W Bullinger) withchrist.org/bullinger.htm
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2019 13:37:29 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jul 11, 2019 13:37:29 GMT -5
Just been reading some of this article which I would like to examine further, as I know nothing about who Bullinger is or what his believes are. ( The Anglo-Catholic Errors of E.W Bullinger) "At a time when German Higher Criticism had inflicted much damage upon Christians, he rightfully lamented the fact that believers were more steeped in religious traditions than in the Word of God. However, his efforts to remedy the situation were deficient and focused on secondary issues. For Mr. Bullinger, the problem for believers was exclusively one of interpretational methodology. He wrote: The Root of all the evils which abound in the spiritual sphere at the present day lies in the fact that the Word and the words of God are not fed upon, digested, and assimilated, as they ought to be. If we ask the question, Why is this the case? the answer is, The Bible is not enjoyed because the Bible is not understood. " The proclamation of Truth of Scripture was a strong point of his, witnessed by and acknowledged by countless saints and scholars even, and clearly, by testing, in line with all Scripture, another strong point in his studies for many things. In a few things he was off, or seems to have been off, and that might be due to several reasons as God Permitted: most particularly the overwhelming power of religious traditions throughout all the 'known/accepted' church BOTH THEN, AND NOW (TODAY) ..... The deficiency today is clearly a lack of knowledge of Scripture, AND not knowing the power of God the One Creator. God Revealed Remarkable quality AND quantity of Truth of Scripture through Bullinger , perhaps as much as any other man then or since then. When God GIVES , GRANTS, REVEALS to a man God's Meaning of Scripture, it is known. If God does not Reveal it, it is not known. The errors Bullinger made are similar to those Martin Luther made - from our view point I think - because there was an ocean of error in men at the time for each one of them , just as there is TODAY, and overcoming the ocean of error, overcoming the errors of man's traditions that is so strong TODAY, is not usually accomplished ..... it is rare TODAY to be set free from those errors. Bullinger and Luther both were used by God, granted His Grace, to deliver the Truth as God's messengers, as God determined. The errors that were made did not tarnish the Truth that God poured so graciously through them to others and for our sakes.
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Deleted
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2019 15:38:28 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2019 15:38:28 GMT -5
I don't know if it is really that important whether our soul is in sleep or in paradise...just as long we are safe in the Lord, and heirs of salvation, that is the important thing. Others have mentioned the scripture that says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and in the OT it says the spirit returns to God who gave it.
Just for the sake of discussion, for me I would need to see more than one witness of Jesus or anyone in the bible saying "I tell you the truth today" in order to accept what Joseph is saying here. I looked but couldn't find any. Everywhere else Jesus only said "I tell you the truth", so to me that is biblical evidence which leans more to the KJV intepretation, with the comma being appropriate and in the right place for the English language.
But if there are scriptures that contradict that interpretation, it doesn't seem that it would be so complicated to post them, or a few of them....two or three at least.... and let us see if we can rightly divide this.
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Heaven
Jul 11, 2019 16:12:01 GMT -5
Post by joseph on Jul 11, 2019 16:12:01 GMT -5
I don't know if it is really that important whether our soul is in sleep or in paradise...just as long we are safe in the Lord, and heirs of salvation, that is the important thing. Others have mentioned the scripture that says to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, and in the OT it says the spirit returns to God who gave it. Just for the sake of discussion, for me I would need to see more than one witness of Jesus or anyone in the bible saying "I tell you the truth today" in order to accept what Joseph is saying here. I looked but couldn't find any. Everywhere else Jesus only said "I tell you the truth", so to me that is biblical evidence which leans more to the KJV intepretation, with the comma being appropriate and in the right place for the English language. But if there are scriptures that contradict that interpretation, it doesn't seem that it would be so complicated to post them, or a few of them....two or three at least.... and let us see if we can rightly divide this. Any Hebrew or Greek, (or Aramaic) text if you could find it would be a more sure witness of Scripture than the sources you found so far, I think. Even getting the true knowledge of Hebrew, Greek and Aramaic would be a more sure witness in the testimony of Jesus (concerning anything). The Truth. Is that what you seek ? (I believe so, unless you yourself (not someone else), says you do not seek the truth) Who is the Revealer of Truth? Who is the Revealer of Salvation ? (according to all Scripture, in every language) Who has attempted to hide the truth for almost 2000 years (actually always) ? Who has been the enemy of truth always ? These basic questions are vital in the understanding God Himself Gives, and are revealed as He says according to His Word. Decades ago I was in a quandary perhaps similar to yours, and perhaps others - I did not know who to trust any more, after being raised to trust my parents, my church, God, pastors, policemen, doctors, teachers, and so on - pretty much like most other people as far as I knew/know today..... All around me, I saw deception and lies, particularly in churches/ pastors, and this was seemingly leaving me without anyone to trust or to believe. This is /was/ good! It is a necessary point to come to, to be brought to by God, in His Purpose, as disclosed throughout His Word and Plan and Purpose in Christ Jesus. If people do not reach this point, I don't know if they can come to the point in Salvation, freedom from sin and from the devil, to walk in the Light and see the Truth in Jesus..... After this point is reached, after I reached this point, I cried out to God in prayer for months, seeking Him and His Understanding, as written - His Meaning in Scripture and His Truth in Life ...... and after coming to Jesus, the Lord and Savior of our souls, the Messiah our Redeemer, throwing myself completely on His Mercy repenting and seeking His Forgiveness (as written), The Father circumcised my heart! I was re-born! "born again" not by my choice, nor by the will of man, nor of blood, but born again by the Will of my Father in Heaven (as written). AMAZING GRACE ! HEAVEN INSIDE ! JESUS INSIDE ! HIS WORD ABIDING IN ME ! Me abiding in Him ! No more questions remaining at all ! Not just about "who to trust" (trust no one of the world/ the flesh), rather as Jesus says : trust the heavenly Father (for salvation in this life and for the life to come - trust the Father to accomplish this, and it is already done! )
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