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Post by John on Jul 29, 2019 8:13:16 GMT -5
Of course, but I am not sure I understand the point. I can do the same thing, but sometimes my guesses will be wrong. I will be off regarding some of the details.
God may know what we’re about to do next, but that doesn’t mean He made us do it. Knowing what’s coming is not the same as causing it to happen. Have you ever been working with a new driver, and based on their skill level you knew exactly what was coming in a situation? God clearly makes some things happen, like bringing in 7 good years before 7 years of famine, but he isn't literally making me do anything, but this goes far beyond being predictable. Take Peter for instance. You could predict he was not as strong as he appeared and wouldn't stand when tempted, but not that he would deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed twice. You might see a new and bolder Spirit-filled Peter after Pentecost and guess he will die for Jesus, but not by crucifixion.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2019 8:15:18 GMT -5
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? — Acts 2:37Sometimes people do need help to know the next step. There’s a fine line between explaining the gospel and putting words in people’s mouths. Whatever we do or say, we are choosing to do or say. I don't disagree with that.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 29, 2019 8:42:56 GMT -5
God may know what we’re about to do next, but that doesn’t mean He made us do it. Knowing what’s coming is not the same as causing it to happen. Have you ever been working with a new driver, and based on their skill level you knew exactly what was coming in a situation? God clearly makes some things happen, like bringing in 7 good years before 7 years of famine, but he isn't literally making me do anything, but this goes far beyond being predictable. Take Peter for instance. You could predict he was not as strong as he appeared and wouldn't stand when tempted, but not that he would deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed twice. You might see a new and bolder Spirit-filled Peter after Pentecost and guess he will die for Jesus, but not by crucifixion.
We can make short-term predictions based on limited information, but God knows the heart of every person. He knows what they’re going to do. Knowing is not the same as causing. That’s my only point here. Knowing an apple will hit the ground when it falls from a tree doesn’t make you responsible for gravity. I’ve never had a problem understanding that foreknowledge isn’t causation.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 29, 2019 8:59:09 GMT -5
Take Peter for instance. You could predict he was not as strong as he appeared and wouldn't stand when tempted, but not that he would deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed twice. Jesus did predict this. And even after Jesus told him it was coming, Peter did it anyway. Satan was having a hissy fit to try to get to Peter. Jesus was fending him off. But Jesus knew that after He got arrested there would be an onslaught of darkness which would paralyze the disciples. He told them night was coming for a season when He would be away from them and they couldn’t work. It’s easy for modern armchair theologians to say Peter lost his mettle, but we have no idea how much spiritual power of darkness was crippling him that night. I do not presume to say I would have handled it better than him.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2019 8:59:15 GMT -5
God clearly makes some things happen, like bringing in 7 good years before 7 years of famine, but he isn't literally making me do anything, but this goes far beyond being predictable. Take Peter for instance. You could predict he was not as strong as he appeared and wouldn't stand when tempted, but not that he would deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed twice. You might see a new and bolder Spirit-filled Peter after Pentecost and guess he will die for Jesus, but not by crucifixion.
We can make short-term predictions based on limited information, but God knows the heart of every person. He knows what they’re going to do. Knowing is not the same as causing. That’s my only point here. Knowing an apple will hit the ground when it falls from a tree doesn’t make you responsible for gravity. I’ve never had a problem understanding that foreknowledge isn’t causation. The only thing that could make you responsible for gravity is if you created gravity. I feel like I am missing something here, because I am not speaking of mortal men who are futurists and can make educated guesses. I am speaking of God who created everything and knows everything. There is a real fine line between creating someone knowing all they will ever do and making them do it. They are not exactly the same, but if the ending is known to God already, like Judas betraying the Lord before it happened for 30 pieces of silver, those things have really already happened in God's mind. It is like a book I am reading. The author knows the end and it won't change no matter how many times I read it, yet I don't know the end.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2019 9:01:13 GMT -5
Take Peter for instance. You could predict he was not as strong as he appeared and wouldn't stand when tempted, but not that he would deny Jesus 3 times before the cock crowed twice. Jesus did predict this. And even after Jesus told him it was coming, Peter did it anyway. Satan was having a hissy fit to try to get to Peter. Jesus was fending him off. But Jesus knew that after He got arrested there would be an onslaught of darkness which would paralyze the disciples. He told them night was coming for a season when He would be away from them and they couldn’t work. It’s easy for modern armchair theologians to say Peter lost his mettle, but we have no idea how much spiritual power of darkness was crippling him that night. I do not presume to say I would have handled it better than him. Nobody know what they will do till they are tested.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Jul 29, 2019 9:19:04 GMT -5
Knowing isn’t causing. That really is the only thing I’m trying to say.
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Post by John on Jul 29, 2019 9:24:13 GMT -5
Knowing isn’t causing. That really is the only thing I’m trying to say. I agree. They are different.
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2019 11:07:28 GMT -5
I had this thread I started on predestination and election that explains my view on that topic. I did this originally for Naomi.
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2019 11:22:32 GMT -5
Based on this thread, I truly didn’t think you were saying God chooses whether or not people get saved. I thought you were making a distinction that knowing isn’t the same as choosing. But it seems that you do believe God chooses salvation for us.
It isn’t worth arguing over. I’m just glad I understand now so I can respond to you appropriately. Open till now I’ve been interacting with you on the assumption that you did not believe in chosen election. My fault. No wonder some of my replies to you seemed to oppose you.
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2019 11:32:06 GMT -5
Based on this thread, I truly didn’t think you were saying God chooses whether or not people get saved. I thought you were making a distinction that knowing isn’t the same as choosing. But it seems that you do believe God chooses salvation for us. It isn’t worth arguing over. I’m just glad I understand now so I can respond to you appropriately. Open till now I’ve been interacting with you on the assumption that you did not believe in chosen election. My fault. No wonder some of my replies to you seemed to oppose you. It is not worth fighting over. I agree. I do believe we make the choice, but God already knew the choice we would make, and created us saved or lost in that regard. I am making daily decisions, but in God's mind, they already happened. He knows all I will ever do up till the end. It is different from anything Calvinists teach. It doesn't fit in with OSAS either, and I didn't believe this till about 7 or 8 years ago when I was seeking God to try to understand why the apparent contradictions in scripture between those holding to OSAS and those who rejected OSAS. It was imparted knowledge. I had never once considered it before as even being a possibility. Nobody should take my word on divine revelation, or anyone else saying that, if it doesn't match up with scripture, so I welcome anyone seeing if what I am saying matches up or not. I honestly thought you knew what I believed. I am sorry for any confusion.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2019 11:36:10 GMT -5
You are still confusing me. Are we choosing what to do, or is God choosing for us? You said on the other thread that God chooses to save us by revealing His Son to whom He will. That isn’t the same as knowing what we will choose. Whatever you believe is what you believe, but I can’t figure it out.
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Post by Giller on Sept 11, 2019 11:53:33 GMT -5
God knows who will and will not receive him before hand, for he knows all things, but that does not mean that God forces his will on people and that there is not a willful response to give.
And on one hand the bible says this:
Joh 15:16 (16) Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
And it is true God chose us, but it is not according to man not having a free will to respond to him, for in reality his choice would be that none would perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Because the bible also says this:
Jos 24:15 (15) And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.
It is not I choose this one to be saved, and not this one, without them, making a decision in the matter, and God never created us as robots.
And also it is not automatically some men being shut out to salvation, for God offered salvation to all, God does not offer something if it cannot happen.
God first came to us, and what we did is accept his choice to save us.
So yes God knows who will accept him or not, but it does not mean that there is no response in the matter, for there is.
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Post by John on Sept 11, 2019 11:55:38 GMT -5
You are still confusing me. Are we choosing what to do, or is God choosing for us? You said on the other thread that God chooses to save us by revealing His Son to whom He will. That isn’t the same as knowing what we will choose. Whatever you believe is what you believe, but I can’t figure it out. For us, and for all practical purposes, we are making choices, but in God's mind, they are already made. It is like if I write a novel and create characters, and John Doe is one of those characters. I finished the book that includes his life. John Doe is living it and doesn't know the ending, but I do. If I created him knowing he will be saved at the end of his life, he is the elect, but he is living totally oblivious to that. He is say 2/3 into his life making daily choices not knowing that his creator wrote the script. We are making choices in our world, but God wrote the book and knows the end, who will be saved and who will be lost. In that sense, free will is an illusion. The elect are those God knows will be saved. Peter was the elect and Judas Iscariot was not. Their ending was foretold before it happened. Judas would hang himself and Peter would be crucified. Nothing could change that.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Sept 11, 2019 12:00:52 GMT -5
So you do believe God writes the script and chooses our lives for us, and then we go through the pretense of pretending to choose it ourselves as some sort of illusion. OK. I just wanted to make sure I understand.
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