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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 13:03:52 GMT -5
I used to Pastor a denominational church, but my issues with them was not that I saw some evil in denominations or thought headquarters was Lording over us. I felt like they were becoming too liberal in an attempt to reach people, and not following Biblical order. It seems like you have had some bad experiences with denominations. What kind of things were they doing? What were they imposing on the local congregations?
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 13:10:27 GMT -5
Here are a few scriptures on this:
Eph 4:11-12 (11) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; (12) For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
This is what the bible says, and I will stick to this.
And even in correction it is to be done with a right attitude, and not as looking down on the flock, or forcing them to obey out of a controlling spirit, but to show them out of a heart of love, that this is very serious, and if they do not obey they will reap the consequences.
And if they disobey, they might reap eventually being put out of the church, but it is not done out of a attitude of superiority, or a controlling spirit, but rather out of obedience to God's word, and it is not that you wnat to see them out because of you are finally getting rid of them, or good ridens, but rather it is because there is no longer a choice to do so, it must be done, and it is being done for their good.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 13:16:21 GMT -5
I will have to go to work soon, but can get into this some time later.
But anyhow, we can see denominations going down the hole, in many compromising in the seeker sensitive movement, and truly it was never God's intention, so I will just stick to the bible, and we see big warnings concerning the church of Pergamos, but then there are other churches of the 7 with big warnings as well.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 13:23:19 GMT -5
And yes there are some denominations who exert more control over their leaders than others, but nevertheless, we have to learn to separate what God's intentions were from man's intentions.
If God shows us an example to follow, we should just follow it.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 13:25:50 GMT -5
I will have to go to work soon, but can get into this some time later. But anyhow, we can see denominations going down the whole, in many compromising in the seeker sensitive movement, and truly it was never God's intention, so I will just stick to the bible, and we see big warnings concerning the church of Pergamos, but then there are other churches of the 7 with big warnings as well. That is what I was dealing with was them going seeker friendly, but I hadn't heard that term back then. That was 20 years ago.
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Post by solid on Sept 18, 2019 14:27:05 GMT -5
Authorities are from God, but the people suffer when they abuse their power.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 18, 2019 19:04:47 GMT -5
Heb 13:24 (24) Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. And yes there is leadership who have rule over the flock, but this rule is not in the sense of lording it over the flock, and yes they are called to feed the flock, preach or teach in the pulpit as some would say, but it is not because they are higher than the flock, it is just that that is their role. Lording it over the flock, is not ruling well over the flock, you lead from a servant's heart, you seek to lead by example. For who is greater he who sits at meat or he who is served . He who sits , YET I AM AMONG YOU as ONE WHO SERVES . Any true seasoned leader of the flock , Would not live better than his flock . And that alone just disqualified a number of leaders in churches , SO HIGH it would be as the grains of sand . If we want a true return , The books of acts is a good place to start . And read them gosples well. JESUS did not have better shoes than his flock . HE DID NOT ride in a special chariot as they walked beside him . HE did not eat better , drink better , or have better clothes . THEY were in those regards ALLL the same . If a leader cannot put those of his flock and their needs above even his own , THEN WE ALREADY GOT PROBLEMS . A leader TAKES care ANd look at the example of paul for that one too . Or peter . IF we want the real deal , THEN WE SIMPLY NEED TO LIVE THE REAL DEAL , BY the ONE TRUE HOLY SPIRIT which is our guide . IF SO BE we truly have THE SPIRIT . And if we do , OUR HEARTS are in TUNE with all things He both said and taught and the apostels later taught . ITS such a real simple beauty . NOW hands up giller, YOU NOW KNOW ITS REJOICING IN THE LORD TIME AGAIN .
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Post by Giller on Sept 19, 2019 0:38:01 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
Here is what "Lords over" means in the Greek:
(Strong's concordance)
(G2634
κατακυριεύω
katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o
From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over (lordship), be lord over, overcome.)
Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus.
God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no.
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Post by Giller on Sept 19, 2019 1:24:48 GMT -5
Well we had many types of experiences with denominations.
Now the first assembly I gathered at, was with a Pentecostal denomination, but concerning him specifically, he was not domineering, he would just not feed the flock right, and they were starting some compromises in this Pentecostal denomination at the time.
And near the end many were feeling as if they were dying inside, for this preacher never really preached the gospel at the Sunday meetings, maybe some things at bible study to a little degree, but Sunday, not really much at all.
His prime sermons were about his children and that is about it, it was just garbage, and we eventually left, for you could not stay under that, he was not doing what he should have been doing, that is if he was ever called in the first place.
And now I will skip to many years later.
This was in Alberta.
There was a certain assembly we gathered at, which we were told was non denominational, but really it was a denomination.
This preacher had a Pentecostal background.
And at times if they had a certain type of program, sometimes (not always) if people did not participate, sometimes they would put a guilt trip on the congregation.
But especially when they had this Edmonton challenge program, during this time they put a major guilt trip upon all the congregation if they did not participate, which my friend at that time, did not really want to , but because of the guilt trip did so.
I personally was totally against this program, and I warned people about it and did not participate.
And what they were doing, is they were going into Mosques, Buddhists temples etc, not to preach the gospel to them , but to see how they conducted their services, and how they did things, but that is not God's way.
They were compromising with them, to hopefully have them like them, then maybe share something.
And this was a huge guilt trip they put on the people, not a small one, and for what, for this junk.
And later we left that one, which I actually got kicked out of.
Then we tried an assembly that my brother told us about, which was part of the same denomination as the one I got kicked out of.
It seemed to go good at first, but i saw that the pastor of the other assembly and this one, were talking to each other, and partly about me, which i found out with a personal talk with that present pastor.
And there are things that I eventually saw there, of how faithful the elders were towards the pastor, but it was faithfulness no matter what, even for compromising purposes, which I had talked to one of the associate pastors, and I do not remember what it was about, and he gave his stance, yet when the pastor spoke it is like his stance did not matter anymore for the pastor spoke.
And eventually, there was a certain program they had brought in, but I had eventually discerned that it was brought forth, to actually get some people out of their assembly they did not want, no one told me that, but me and wife could discern it and see that is was the case.
What they did is get rid of the services, and replaced it with banqueting, and listening to these videos, so it was no longer having a time laid aside for the Lord, to were we seek him, praise him, and get fed the word, it was just simply banqueting, and listening to some video, which we never went to those things, and he knew we would be opposed to this, so we left, and it was obvious we were not welcomed.
So those are some of the things we experienced, and some times leaders do a controlling thing, not through harsh words, but through subtle ways.
Now a story that my wife told me ,which is before she knew me, is that they had met this guy which they gathered with, which he eventually started bringing some teaching of his, and in this case it had nothing to do with a denomination, but this guy became very controlling and condemning, even to the point to the way cult leaders are like.
And his teachings effected many even years later that were no longer with him.
He started teaching that you had to give up your eternal life to save others, and started saying that farting and burping was a sin (and i am very serious about this), and treated people like dirt, like worthless and so on.
Of course my wife and her mom and step dad did not stay with this person for long.
So here are just some stories denominational wise, and that one other story I shared.
And many of these were issues with individual preachers within denominations, though it seems that the 2 pastors within the last churches I mentioned, which were in the same denomination, were like minded.
Though I do know that some decisions are truly made from the headquarters downwards, but to what degree, I do not know, but we probably would be surprised, in many cases, if we truly did know.
And I could share more, but will leave it at that.
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Post by John on Sept 19, 2019 5:49:35 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Here is what " Lords over" means in the Greek: (Strong's concordance) (G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over ( lordship), be lord over, overcome.) Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus. God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no. I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
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Post by John on Sept 19, 2019 6:10:32 GMT -5
Well we had many types of experiences with denominations. Now the first assembly I gathered at, was with a Pentecostal denomination, but concerning him specifically, he was not domineering, he would just not feed the flock right, and they were starting some compromises in this Pentecostal denomination at the time. And near the end many were feeling as if they were dying inside, for this preacher never really preached the gospel at the Sunday meetings, maybe some things at bible study to a little degree, but Sunday, not really much at all. His prime sermons were about his children and that is about it, it was just garbage, and we eventually left, for you could not stay under that, he was not doing what he should have been doing, that is if he was ever called in the first place. And now I will skip to many years later. This was in Alberta. There was a certain assembly we gathered at, which we were told was non denominational, but really it was a denomination. This preacher had a Pentecostal background. And at times if they had a certain type of program, sometimes (not always) if people did not participate, sometimes they would put a guilt trip on the congregation. But especially when they had this Edmonton challenge program, during this time they put a major guilt trip upon all the congregation if they did not participate, which my friend at that time, did not really want to , but because of the guilt trip did so. I personally was totally against this program, and I warned people about it and did not participate. And what they were doing, is they were going into Mosques, Buddhists temples etc, not to preach the gospel to them , but to see how they conducted their services, and how they did things, but that is not God's way. They were compromising with them, to hopefully have them like them, then maybe share something. And this was a huge guilt trip they put on the people, not a small one, and for what, for this junk. And later we left that one, which I actually got kicked out of. Then we tried an assembly that my brother told us about, which was part of the same denomination as the one I got kicked out of. It seemed to go good at first, but i saw that the pastor of the other assembly and this one, were talking to each other, and partly about me, which i found out with a personal talk with that present pastor. And there are things that I eventually saw there, of how faithful the elders were towards the pastor, but it was faithfulness no matter what, even for compromising purposes, which I had talked to one of the associate pastors, and I do not remember what it was about, and he gave his stance, yet when the pastor spoke it is like his stance did not matter anymore for the pastor spoke. And eventually, there was a certain program they had brought in, but I had eventually discerned that it was brought forth, to actually get some people out of their assembly they did not want, no one told me that, but me and wife could discern it and see that is was the case. What they did is get rid of the services, and replaced it with banqueting, and listening to these videos, so it was no longer having a time laid aside for the Lord, to were we seek him, praise him, and get fed the word, it was just simply banqueting, and listening to some video, which we never went to those things, and he knew we would be opposed to this, so we left, and it was obvious we were not welcomed. So those are some of the things we experienced, and some times leaders do a controlling thing, not through harsh words, but through subtle ways. Now a story that my wife told me ,which is before she knew me, is that they had met this guy which they gathered with, which he eventually started bringing some teaching of his, and in this case it had nothing to do with a denomination, but this guy became very controlling and condemning, even to the point to the way cult leaders are like. And his teachings effected many even years later that were no longer with him. He started teaching that you had to give up your eternal life to save others, and started saying that farting and burping was a sin (and i am very serious about this), and treated people like dirt, like worthless and so on. Of course my wife and her mom and step dad did not stay with this person for long. So here are just some stories denominational wise, and that one other story I shared. And many of these were issues with individual preachers within denominations, though it seems that the 2 pastors within the last churches I mentioned, which were in the same denomination, were like minded. Though I do know that some decisions are truly made from the headquarters downwards, but to what degree, I do not know, but we probably would be surprised, in many cases, if we truly did know. And I could share more, but will leave it at that. I would have left those churches too. You were under false teachers. God doesn't want that for us.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 19, 2019 8:06:12 GMT -5
Praise the Lord . It seems more and more we have the desire to begin fresh and anew . Now let us begin the performing of it . We have the desire , so let us now have the performance of the doing of this .
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 9:34:09 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Here is what " Lords over" means in the Greek: (Strong's concordance) (G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over ( lordship), be lord over, overcome.) Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus. God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no. Amen brother.....there's a big difference between authority in the spirit and authority as it is wielded by the world and the flesh. The flesh wants to dominate, control and intimidate people into submission, and attain to fleshly ambitions. When we see worldly authority exercised in the church it more resembles a Jezebel spirit than the spirit of Christ. But as you are saying, it is not to be like that in the assemblies of Christ where HE is truly the Head and leads through the Holy Spirit. Mat 20:20-21
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:24-28
And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many
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Post by Giller on Sept 19, 2019 9:38:01 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Here is what " Lords over" means in the Greek: (Strong's concordance) (G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over ( lordship), be lord over, overcome.) Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus. God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no. I do not believe that is what it means when he says not to Lord over God's heritage. You don't have authorities if they can't exert control. If they can't actually rule over someone, they are not authorities but just advisors. It has to be speaking of attitude.
I agree with exerting a certain amount of control in situations, but not total control of the flock, were you say what everything goes in their life. And I do believe it is right this definition, but exerting some power in decisions, and stuff like that, of course there is some of that within a position of authority, but it is not like an Hitlertarian way, no not at all, because also there is other scriptures to consider, and yes it does cover attitude. A preacher must also be sensitive to the Holy Spirit. And literally, that definition is what lording over literally means, but of course it goes on the side of attitude, and their is exerting control of certain situations, but it is not total control. And along with the word saying submit yourselves to the elder, it also says submit yourselves one to another. And yes their is leadership, but also the leader must be sensitive to the leading of the Holy Spirit and to allow people to be used of the Holy Spirit, otherwise you are not using your authority in a biblical manner, and all you are about is yourself, and not the body, for it is a body ministry, and not a one man show. It is not total control to were we say what people do in every aspect of their life, that is not biblical.
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Post by Giller on Sept 19, 2019 9:43:15 GMT -5
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. Here is what " Lords over" means in the Greek: (Strong's concordance) (G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuō
kat-ak-oo-ree-yoo'-o From G2596 and G2961; to lord against, that is, control, subjugate: - exercise dominion over ( lordship), be lord over, overcome.) Leaders are not to Lord it over the flock or control the flock, but rather to build them up in the most holy faith , so they grow in their walk with God, and learn to trust in Jesus. God says no (Lording over the flock), and he means no. Amen brother.....there's a big difference between authority in the spirit and authority as it is wielded by the world and the flesh. The flesh wants to dominate, control and intimidate people into submission, and attain to fleshly ambitions. When we see worldly authority exercised in the church it more resembles a Jezebel spirit than the spirit of Christ. But as you are saying, it is not to be like that in the assemblies of Christ where HE is truly the Head and leads through the Holy Spirit. Mat 20:20-21
Then came to him the mother of Zebedee's children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
Mat 20:24-28
And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren.
But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister;
And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many
I like this sister, so very true. I want to put a bit of emphasis on the verse you mentioned: Mat 20:24-28 And when the ten heard it, they were moved with indignation against the two brethren. But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many
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