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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 10:29:35 GMT -5
Heb 13:24 (24) Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you.
And yes there is leadership who have rule over the flock, but this rule is not in the sense of lording it over the flock, and yes they are called to feed the flock, preach or teach in the pulpit as some would say, but it is not because they are higher than the flock, it is just that that is their role.
Lording it over the flock, is not ruling well over the flock, you lead from a servant's heart, you seek to lead by example.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 10:33:48 GMT -5
Paul had oversight of many churches in being an Apostle, which in this role he taught and preached among the churches, or you can say preached in the pulpit, which by the way, it does mention the word pulpit in the bible, which is a pulpit of wood mentioned in Nehemiah.
But pulpit or not (which is not necessary), they are called to feed the flock.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 10:36:45 GMT -5
Heb 13:24 (24) Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. And yes there is leadership who have rule over the flock, but this rule is not in the sense of lording it over the flock, and yes they are called to feed the flock, preach or teach in the pulpit as some would say, but it is not because they are higher than the flock, it is just that that is their role. Lording it over the flock, is not ruling well over the flock, you lead from a servant's heart, you seek to lead by example. This brings up something else. When Paul wrote to the churches, he did so as an authority figure, ruling over them. Is your issue with authorities or attitudes?
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 10:38:27 GMT -5
I think sometimes, in the Western world, a fair chunk of people are clueless to how some churches operate, such as those in persecuted areas, or as many of the Chinese house churches.
If some churches that are not affiliated to the government, came here and still operated this way here, I believe that many denominational churches (not all) would condemn them, for they would not even consider them a church.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 10:40:01 GMT -5
Heb 13:24 (24) Salute all them that have the rule over you, and all the saints. They of Italy salute you. And yes there is leadership who have rule over the flock, but this rule is not in the sense of lording it over the flock, and yes they are called to feed the flock, preach or teach in the pulpit as some would say, but it is not because they are higher than the flock, it is just that that is their role. Lording it over the flock, is not ruling well over the flock, you lead from a servant's heart, you seek to lead by example. This brings up something else. When Paul wrote to the churches, he did so as an authority figure, ruling over them. Is your issue with authorities or attitudes?
More with attitude of how it is done.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 10:59:52 GMT -5
I agree 100% with authority, as long as the leaders do not over step their authority, and start lording it over the flock.
1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 11:05:36 GMT -5
And concerning churches, we really must allow God to do his work in our hearts.
Too many want instant coffee churches, and thus many become impatient, and set up their own elders and so forth, whether qualified or not, but how many leaders, in church circles are truly called of God?
Sure we want to see elders among us, we want to see this part of the word come true, and so forth, and we should desire to see the things of the word of God, whatever it be, to come to pass, but it takes work to get there, it isn't instant coffee.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 11:24:43 GMT -5
I agree 100% with authority, as long as the leaders do not over step their authority, and start lording it over the flock. 1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. What does it mean to Lord over God's heritage as opposed to being a good overseer like Paul?
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 11:31:43 GMT -5
I agree 100% with authority, as long as the leaders do not over step their authority, and start lording it over the flock. 1Pe 5:3 (3) Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. What does it mean to Lord over God's heritage as opposed to being a good overseer like Paul?
Well the pharisees had this kind of attitude, to were they though they were better than others, and were full of self righteousness. It is to were your looking down on the flock, and think you are superior to them, and to were you are full of self righteousness. And yes leaders have a form of authority, but they are not better than the rest, nor should they look down at people. The flock is in their care, and not so they can look down upon the flock, and snub their noses.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 11:35:53 GMT -5
It is like that saying the clergy over the laity.
They have ultimate control over them in every way shape or form, they are not shepherding in the form of caring for the flock, but so they can have superiority over the flock.
It is about controlling the flock.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 12:03:23 GMT -5
And concerning the new testament church which started on the day of Pentecost, they did not go to the Roman government of the day, and seek permission to start a church, they were just being the church, and gradually things became established, but not because of Roman approval, but just simply because they were walking in the ways of the Lord.
And I can guarantee you that, Peter, James, John and so on, would have never been approved by the Roman government to establish a church in the way we do today, for look at how much they were persecuted by the Romans, so they did not seek Roman approval, and the first church was not established through government approval, so if that is the case, should the church of today be established through government approval, or through the Lord Jesus Christ?
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 12:12:35 GMT -5
Leaders are called to build up the flock in the most holy faith, and not to control the flock.
They present the word of God to the people, but the people have to choose what they will do with this word, we cannot choose for them.
And yes there is correction, even rebukes, and certain corrective actions.
And we do need to show respect to our leaders, especially the ones that rule well.
We should want to be a help to them, and not a burden.
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Post by John on Sept 18, 2019 12:41:22 GMT -5
Leaders are called to build up the flock in the most holy faith, and not to control the flock. They present the word of God to the people, but the people have to choose what they will do with this word, we cannot choose for them. And yes there is correction, even rebukes, and certain corrective actions. And we do need to show respect to our leaders, especially the ones that rule well. We should want to be a help to them, and not a burden. That brings up another question. Exercising authority is controlling. If not, it is not an authority. Wasn't Paul doing more than making a suggestion regarding the fornicators in Corinth?
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 12:50:11 GMT -5
And at one time, we had a certain assembly, with a Scottish preacher.
And when the preacher would go on vacation, there would be a person, who did not want to gather with the body, only because the pastor was not there.
And the pastor wanted us to gather even when he was not there.
But loving one another does not depend upon who is there or not, we should love each other anyways.
Sometimes we make up so much rules, and really all the man made rules, can take you away from the simplicity of the gospel.
God says to love your neighbor as yourself, and other things of course.
I think one thing that would be good to think upon is just simply the verse that says, God is love.
Does God get righteously angry at times? Of course he does, but is there a type of love even in this?
1Co 13:4-6 (4) Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, (5) Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil; (6) Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
It says here that love does not rejoice, does not rejoice, does not rejoice, in what?
In iniquity.
So even in righteous anger there can be love, and in this case that love is the love of the truth.
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Post by Giller on Sept 18, 2019 12:55:10 GMT -5
Leaders are called to build up the flock in the most holy faith, and not to control the flock. They present the word of God to the people, but the people have to choose what they will do with this word, we cannot choose for them. And yes there is correction, even rebukes, and certain corrective actions. And we do need to show respect to our leaders, especially the ones that rule well. We should want to be a help to them, and not a burden. That brings up another question. Exercising authority is controlling. If not, it is not an authority. Wasn't Paul doing more than making a suggestion regarding the fornicators in Corinth?
How should I say this, yes he was doing more than just suggesting, that is why I mentioned corrective actions in one of my posts, just in case some thing like this is said. There was indeed actions done, even putting some people out of the church who were such and such, but I would be careful how to use the word control, because people still had a free will to choose, but that does not mean that if they chose wrong that no corrective actions would occur. Paul did not do it out of a controlling spirit, but rather out of obedience to Christ.
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