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Post by Giller on Dec 19, 2019 14:50:55 GMT -5
When men get a hold of things, they tend to make a mess of what God originally intended for things to be, and some things I will say, I think will surprise some, which maybe some of you have never heard of, but I assure you it will be bible based.
We need to seek to see things from God's perspective, and see things from a different spiritual eye.
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Post by John on Dec 19, 2019 17:00:07 GMT -5
When men get a hold of things, they tend to make a mess of what God originally intended for things to be, and some things I will say, I think will surprise some, which maybe some of you have never heard of, but I assure you it will be bible based. We need to seek to see things from God's perspective, and see things from a different spiritual eye. For me, I don't see how rap or heavy metal or things like that fit into a church service. I don't see how they can be part of worship. That part is easy to me. When it comes to entertainment, having rap music or heavy metal music with lyrics that are promoting Christianity, I am not sure where I come down with regard to the right or wrong of it. What I mean is, whether there is something sinful about it?
One thing that music is good for is remembering things. I learned the preamble to the Constitution listening to School House Rock on Saturday mornings. I likely would have never remembered it without it being put to song, so lets suppose you have someone rapping scripture or singing lyrics about God in a style that appeals to some people? Is that sinful? It is not appropriate for worship, in my opinion, but is it wrong? I do not like rap at all, so it is very easy to let my bias influence me, and I do not wish to do that. I need to look at this based on the Bible and how God sees it.
When did rap music begin? The earliest I remember it was back in the late 70s when it was introduced by a song called, "Rappers Delight, " by the Sugar Hill Gang. It was a minor hit, and rap was a kind of novelty back then. Over time, it began to be more and more popular. It is something I have looked at as a negative in today's music. Long gone are the days of R & B groups like the Spinners and Temptations that I grew up listening to, and now you have a lot of bass and people finding ways to mix some vocals along with someone rapping the words to things rather than singing them. I do not know why people like it, but again, is it sinful and inspired by a fallen angel or is it just what I would consider a bad form of art? I would not miss rap if it were gone, so I have no interest in this but to get to the truth.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Dec 19, 2019 22:14:03 GMT -5
So Giller is saying that God never instituted rap as a form of worship.
But does that mean that everything not specifically prescribed by the Bible is worldly?
For something to be worldly, it must involve knowledge or practice of things antithetical to Christ.
I don't think to defend all rap music but are words praising God discounted because they are said in a rhythm?
Consider this excerpt from Shai Linne's The Judge of All the Earth about God's justice:
As we continue to consider this particular perfection Let's take a second to address a few misconceptions When many think of God they assume His love is a must That's true, but it doesn't negate the fact that God is just So when we say this, they'll wanna take us off the playlist But God is never under obligation to be gracious See, justice and mercy are two separate categories And God is the one who chooses which way He'll have His glory The choices The Holy One certainly can't be faulted In punishing the guilty, His righteousness is exalted He also rewards the righteous, we kind of/ sort of like this The problem of course is that nobody who's born is righteous All of Adam's descendants are inherently filthy That's problematic for a God who will not clear the guilty If God is gonna save us and demonstrate what His love is It must be in a manner that's consistent with His justice Jesus Christ, The Righteous One, the perfect solution Proving that God is just on the basis of substitution Perfect obedience, consecration without a flaw Yet on the cross He suffered the condemnation of the law So now God is able to be just and the justifier Of all who turn from their sin and place their trust in Messiah The resurrected Lord is our infinite treasure truly He gives us new eyes to see His justice in all its beauty!
The problem with dismissing different genres of music as worldly is that you can alienate groups of people who sincerely want to promote the gospel.
I think the issue that rap music presents is it's association with gangs, promiscuity, materialism, and boasting. I agree that those things are inappropriate for believers but I have seen Christian rap used to unapologetically call for repentance from those things, holiness, and following after Christ.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 0:20:28 GMT -5
So Giller is saying that God never instituted rap as a form of worship. But does that mean that everything not specifically prescribed by the Bible is worldly? For something to be worldly, it must involve knowledge or practice of things antithetical to Christ. I don't think to defend all rap music but are words praising God discounted because they are said in a rhythm? Consider this excerpt from Shai Linne's The Judge of All the Earth about God's justice: As we continue to consider this particular perfection Let's take a second to address a few misconceptions When many think of God they assume His love is a must That's true, but it doesn't negate the fact that God is just So when we say this, they'll wanna take us off the playlist But God is never under obligation to be gracious See, justice and mercy are two separate categories And God is the one who chooses which way He'll have His glory The choices The Holy One certainly can't be faulted In punishing the guilty, His righteousness is exalted He also rewards the righteous, we kind of/ sort of like this The problem of course is that nobody who's born is righteous All of Adam's descendants are inherently filthy That's problematic for a God who will not clear the guilty If God is gonna save us and demonstrate what His love is It must be in a manner that's consistent with His justice Jesus Christ, The Righteous One, the perfect solution Proving that God is just on the basis of substitution Perfect obedience, consecration without a flaw Yet on the cross He suffered the condemnation of the law So now God is able to be just and the justifier Of all who turn from their sin and place their trust in Messiah The resurrected Lord is our infinite treasure truly He gives us new eyes to see His justice in all its beauty! The problem with dismissing different genres of music as worldly is that you can alienate groups of people who sincerely want to promote the gospel. I think the issue that rap music presents is it's association with gangs, promiscuity, materialism, and boasting. I agree that those things are inappropriate for believers but I have seen Christian rap used to unapologetically call for repentance from those things, holiness, and following after Christ. To me I believe that not only the words matter, but the way the music is played as well, and from what spirit it is coming from. If it produces the works of the flesh it is of the world, plain and simple. And the roots of it matters to God. It says not to learn the ways of the heathen. God never says to go after a style, or to adopt the hip hop culture and fit it into the gospel, it is just not in scripture, and I do not want to go by feelings, or by some personality because I like that person a lot. Rom 12:2 (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. If it is the same as this world, it is the same, but God tells us to be transformed, that is to be transformed in every way. There has to be a difference. Even in David's music there was a difference, and I will get later into what that difference is, and it has nothing to do with style or culture, zero to do with this. I am sorry but we do not know better than God or what he says in his word.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 0:31:20 GMT -5
There is a spirit behind music, and it is either the spirit of this world , or the Spirit of God.
And it is not about who is playing the music in a certain sense, and putting scriptures to it, for I have heard in what is called Christian (so called) heavy metal, to were they were screaming their heads off, and had Christian words to it, and you can feel evil spirits.
There is a spirit to music.
Heavy metal no matter how it is played, shows absolutely nothing concerning the fruit of the Spirit.
And I truly do not see it in rap either.
They may give an altar call after wards, but I find it is giving a confusing message to the people to were you are mixing the world with Christianity.
I know what I see, and many other people do see these things as well, I did not grow up as a Christian, I use to listen to the music of this world, and when I did become a Christian, and heard some of this Christian rap stuff, i never felt a spirit of humility and humbleness, and of course I never felt it in the so called Christian Heavy metal and like music, which one group I heard was Petra.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 1:17:52 GMT -5
And for me it is not based on bias at all, for in the world I use to listen to heavy metal and say hard rock and stuff of that nature, and one of my favorite groups was Kiss, and concerning rap in the world, I did not listen too much to it, but I was ok with it.
1Sa 16:17-23 (17) And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. (18) Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. (19) Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. (20) And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. (21) And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. (22) And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. (23) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.
Here there is no evidence whatsoever of David singing, but just playing a harp, which his playing of the harp caused an evil spirit to depart, which shows that there is a spirit to music, which in this case it was the Holy Spirit.
I do not know how much we truly realize that music is spiritual.
And so far in regards to this specific issue at hand, I have not heard any biblical arguments concerning it, from others.
Arguments maybe, but not biblical ones.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 1:26:34 GMT -5
Rom 12:2 (2) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Being transformed, is going from something to something else, it is not remaining the same, and just adopting a Christian lingo to an unchanged state.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 1:53:35 GMT -5
Let us not be light hearted about this issue, let us take it very seriously, let us not mess around with spiritual stuff because it can come back to bite us in the end.
It is better to fear the Lord, and not take chances, for why test God ?
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Post by John on Dec 20, 2019 6:32:42 GMT -5
There is a spirit behind music, and it is either the spirit of this world , or the Spirit of God. And it is not about who is playing the music in a certain sense, and putting scriptures to it, for I have heard in what is called Christian (so called) heavy metal, to were they were screaming their heads off, and had Christian words to it, and you can feel evil spirits. There is a spirit to music. Heavy metal no matter how it is played, shows absolutely nothing concerning the fruit of the Spirit. And I truly do not see it in rap either. They may give an altar call after wards, but I find it is giving a confusing message to the people to were you are mixing the world with Christianity. I know what I see, and many other people do see these things as well, I did not grow up as a Christian, I use to listen to the music of this world, and when I did become a Christian, and heard some of this Christian rap stuff, i never felt a spirit of humility and humbleness, and of course I never felt it in the so called Christian Heavy metal and like music, which one group I heard was Petra. I think this is what we have to consider, what spirit is behind the music, if any? Is there some kind of evil spirits behind certain styles of music like rap and heavy metal, or is our only concern lyrics? There is no question in my mind that music itself effects our mood. Often times, when I would listen to popular music growing up, it was not the lyrics that were my main reason for liking or disliking a song, as often times I could not understand what they were singing, but it was the music itself. That is often still the case. It is the musical style, the way it sounds, that has more of an effect than the actual words. Naominash in essence posted what looks like a poem when we read it, but would be completely different if someone was rapping it with music behind it.
There is also the matter of can this be okay for entertainment to listen to on the radio or at home using a cd player, but wrong in church? In my mind, there is no way I would want rap, rock or heavy metal style music sung in church, but is there ever a time it is okay, like when you are listening to the radio while doing work around the house or just relaxing, or for background music or while driving in your car? What are your thoughts, and why?
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Dec 20, 2019 6:45:44 GMT -5
Rap, pop, rock, heavy metal, country and bluegrass, etc., is not something I care to hear sung in church. They are worldly styles of music. Hymns and praise and worship songs that bring glory to God are what should be used in church. Are those kinds of music sinful? That is completely different. I really don't know. I don't know of anything in the Bible that says they are.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 13:23:24 GMT -5
There is a spirit behind music, and it is either the spirit of this world , or the Spirit of God. And it is not about who is playing the music in a certain sense, and putting scriptures to it, for I have heard in what is called Christian (so called) heavy metal, to were they were screaming their heads off, and had Christian words to it, and you can feel evil spirits. There is a spirit to music. Heavy metal no matter how it is played, shows absolutely nothing concerning the fruit of the Spirit. And I truly do not see it in rap either. They may give an altar call after wards, but I find it is giving a confusing message to the people to were you are mixing the world with Christianity. I know what I see, and many other people do see these things as well, I did not grow up as a Christian, I use to listen to the music of this world, and when I did become a Christian, and heard some of this Christian rap stuff, i never felt a spirit of humility and humbleness, and of course I never felt it in the so called Christian Heavy metal and like music, which one group I heard was Petra. I think this is what we have to consider, what spirit is behind the music, if any? Is there some kind of evil spirits behind certain styles of music like rap and heavy metal, or is our only concern lyrics? There is no question in my mind that music itself effects our mood. Often times, when I would listen to popular music growing up, it was not the lyrics that were my main reason for liking or disliking a song, as often times I could not understand what they were singing, but it was the music itself. That is often still the case. It is the musical style, the way it sounds, that has more of an effect than the actual words. Naominash in essence posted what looks like a poem when we read it, but would be completely different if someone was rapping it with music behind it.
There is also the matter of can this be okay for entertainment to listen to on the radio or at home using a cd player, but wrong in church? In my mind, there is no way I would want rap, rock or heavy metal style music sung in church, but is there ever a time it is okay, like when you are listening to the radio while doing work around the house or just relaxing, or for background music or while driving in your car? What are your thoughts, and why?
I will get to your last question in a bit, and to me I want to be the same every I am.
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 13:59:46 GMT -5
Here is info on Heavy Metal:
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_metal_music)
(...Heavy metal (or simply metal) is a genre of rock music[3] that developed in the late 1960s and early 1970s, largely in the United Kingdom.[4] With roots in blues rock, psychedelic rock, and acid rock,[5] the bands that created heavy metal developed a thick, massive sound, characterized by highly amplified distortion, extended guitar solos, emphatic beats, and overall loudness. The genre's lyrics and performance styles are sometimes associated with aggression and machismo.[5]
In 1968, three of the genre's most famous pioneers, Led Zeppelin, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple were founded.[6] Though they came to attract wide audiences, they were often derided by critics. Following the blueprint laid down by Led Zeppelin and Black Sabbath, several American bands modified heavy metal into more accessible forms during the 1970s: the raw, sleazy sound and outrageous stage shows of Alice Cooper and Kiss; the blues-rooted rock of Aerosmith; and the flashy guitar leads and wild party rock of Van Halen.[7] During the mid-1970s, Judas Priest helped spur the genre's evolution by discarding much of its blues influence;[8][9] Motörhead introduced a punk rock sensibility and an increasing emphasis on speed. Beginning in the late 1970s, bands in the new wave of British heavy metal such as Iron Maiden and Def Leppard followed in a similar vein. Before the end of the decade, heavy metal fans became known as "metalheads" or "headbangers"....)
key words I see here are aggression and machismo, metalheads and headbangers.
There is extreme aggression in heavy metal, not just in the way they sing many times screaming, but in the way their music is played.
And just by the scriptures showing that David just by playing an instrument, it caused devils to flee, shows that there is a spirit to music, and it does affect people music, there is no doubt about it, it is very spiritual, and you can feel it, it is not an imagined thing.
And what heavy metal tends to stir up, whether in what is called Christian circles or not, is headbanging, which does not come from aw inspired reverence towards God, in fact it is aligned with one of the works of the flesh, and here is this work of the flesh:
Gal 5:21 (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Here is the Greek definition of revellings:
(Strong's concordance)
(...G2970 κῶμος kōmos ko'-mos From G2749; a carousal (as if a letting loose): - revelling, rioting. Total KJV occurrences: 3...)
Here is another definition:
(Webster's dictionrary)
(Reveling REV'ELING, ppr. Feasting with noisy merriment; carousing. REV'ELING, n. A feasting with noisy merriment; revelry. Gal 5. 1 Pet 4.)
Revelry is unrestrained, it has a party hardy attitude to it, and can cause riots, getting into drunkenness and such like.
Revelry is very boisterous in the flesh, and it is the opposite of self control, and self control is one of the fruit of the Spirit.
For myself I do not want to listen to garbage and feed my spirit garbage at any time, whether in a service or not, I want the peace of God, and the things of God.
It says that they which do such things as revelry will not, not, not, inherit the kingdom of God.
And if we are truly honest, since when does headbanging cause you to think in a humble fashion, for it is not humble, it is aggressive, full of revelry, it is evil.
We do not see them doing that in the bible towards God, but you see people falling before God, kneeling before God and so on and so forth.
What ever happened to modesty?
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 14:11:00 GMT -5
We need to be sensitive to the Holy Spirit, and I know to some degree there are just things that people do not know, but in other cases, could the spiritual senses of people have been dulled?
Therefore they have a harder time to discern things?
Because when you have your senses dulled it is harder to see things, it could be right in front of you, and you still do not see it.
And we have to remember this:
2Co 5:17 (17) Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
When we become born again all things become new, and I mean all things !!!!!!!
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Post by Giller on Dec 20, 2019 14:27:39 GMT -5
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapping)
(...Rapping (or rhyming, spitting,[1] emceeing,[2] MCing[2][3]) is a musical form of vocal delivery that incorporates "rhyme, rhythmic speech, and street vernacular",[4] which is performed or chanted in a variety of ways, usually over a backing beat or musical accompaniment.[4] The components of rap include "content" (what is being said), "flow" (rhythm, rhyme), and "delivery" (cadence, tone).[5] Rap differs from spoken-word poetry in that it is usually performed in time to musical accompaniment.[6] Rap being a primary ingredient of hip hop music, it is commonly associated with that genre in particular; however, the origins of rap precede hip-hop culture. The earliest precursor to modern rap is the West African griot tradition, in which "oral historians",[7] or "praise-singers",[7] would disseminate oral traditions and genealogies, or use their rhetorical techniques for gossip or to "praise or critique individuals."[7]...)
I looked a bit into this West African griot tradition, and there seems to have been different aspect to it, and it seems to have been somewhat different than rap, but for some reason I guess they equate it as a precursor to rap.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Dec 20, 2019 18:28:58 GMT -5
There is a spirit behind music, and it is either the spirit of this world , or the Spirit of God. And it is not about who is playing the music in a certain sense, and putting scriptures to it, for I have heard in what is called Christian (so called) heavy metal, to were they were screaming their heads off, and had Christian words to it, and you can feel evil spirits. There is a spirit to music. Heavy metal no matter how it is played, shows absolutely nothing concerning the fruit of the Spirit. And I truly do not see it in rap either. They may give an altar call after wards, but I find it is giving a confusing message to the people to were you are mixing the world with Christianity. I know what I see, and many other people do see these things as well, I did not grow up as a Christian, I use to listen to the music of this world, and when I did become a Christian, and heard some of this Christian rap stuff, i never felt a spirit of humility and humbleness, and of course I never felt it in the so called Christian Heavy metal and like music, which one group I heard was Petra. If there can be Christian lyrics in music but evil spirits in the music behind it, then what is the criteria for music? What makes some musical sounds holy and others not?
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