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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 10:58:38 GMT -5
There is a spirit behind music, and it is either the spirit of this world , or the Spirit of God. And it is not about who is playing the music in a certain sense, and putting scriptures to it, for I have heard in what is called Christian (so called) heavy metal, to were they were screaming their heads off, and had Christian words to it, and you can feel evil spirits. There is a spirit to music. Heavy metal no matter how it is played, shows absolutely nothing concerning the fruit of the Spirit. And I truly do not see it in rap either. They may give an altar call after wards, but I find it is giving a confusing message to the people to were you are mixing the world with Christianity. I know what I see, and many other people do see these things as well, I did not grow up as a Christian, I use to listen to the music of this world, and when I did become a Christian, and heard some of this Christian rap stuff, i never felt a spirit of humility and humbleness, and of course I never felt it in the so called Christian Heavy metal and like music, which one group I heard was Petra. If there can be Christian lyrics in music but evil spirits in the music behind it, then what is the criteria for music? What makes some musical sounds holy and others not? I will get into that in a bit.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 11:53:20 GMT -5
Here is another way of looking at it.
Let us go to the works of the flesh scripture:
Gal 5:19-21 (19) Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Right now I will deal with the word lasciviousness.
I will give examples of lasciviousness, in many aspects of life.
A person's actions themselves can be a result of lasciviousness, or you could say it is lasciviousness in action.
First let us get to the meaning of the word:
(Webster's dictionary)
(LASCIV'IOUSNESS, n.
1. Looseness; irregular indulgence of animal desires; wantonness; lustfulness. Who, being past feeling, have given themselves over to lasciviousness. Eph 4.
2. Tendency to excite lust, and promote irregular indulgences. The reason pretended by Augustus was, the lasciviousness of his Elegies and his Art of Love.)
(John Gill)
(lasciviousness; or wantonness, all lustful dalliance, everything that leads on to acts of uncleanness, or attends them, as impure words, filthy gestures, and the like.)
In many ways, it seems to lend itself to a lot of types of sexual lusts.
So one example in life of lasciviousness would be say a man lusting to have sex with another man, but in the realm of words, it would be saying sexually suggestive things, speaking in an immoral way.
So we have an example in a physical action, we have an example via speech , but can this sin be done via other areas of life as well?
Yes it can be done in dance, while singing, and while playing musical instruments.
In dance it would be dancing in a way to were you are being sexually suggestive, such as pole dancing and the like.
In song, you can seek to be singing in such a way to were your making your voice sound sexy as you sing, which I have seen done (use to watch weird things in the world), and you can see by the way they are singing that they are purposely being sexually suggestive, which usually it would be done in a bar to were women do pole dancing stuff.
What about when playing an instrument, can you seek to play in such a way to were you are trying to be sexually suggestive?
Yes, you can see this in soap operas, many times when bad sex acts are going to take place (which I do not watch these things but used to in the world), they put on sexually suggestive music, and even in porno stuff.
So it can hit all areas of life in one form or another.
See those acts via physical actions, speech, dance, song, and music, are the products of lasciviousness, or you can say it is lasciviousness in action.
Now what about revelings?
Well Revelings can be shown in a physical action such as partying hard, and being full of boastful flesh in a type of party atmosphere, it can be shown in speech, such as saying things that glorify a party atmosphere, and making ones boast of that, it can be shown in dance, such as head banging, and it can be shown in song, such as the way they try to sing in heavy metal, which for the most part it is some type of chaotic screaming, and it can be shown through the way someone is playing his instrument, like the way they play in heavy metal, which it has a chaotic noise, it is not calm, it is not innocently rejoiceful, it is just down right chaotic, which many times if you observe heavy metal concerts, what sometimes happens? Riots, is it just a coincidence, or is this really the fruit of heavy metal?
Sometimes we think of sin just affecting certain areas, but it can affect all areas.
See heavy metal is Revelling in action, it is not just a product of Reveling, but in fact is reveling, in action.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 13:45:53 GMT -5
And for me it is not based on bias at all, for in the world I use to listen to heavy metal and say hard rock and stuff of that nature, and one of my favorite groups was Kiss, and concerning rap in the world, I did not listen too much to it, but I was ok with it. 1Sa 16:17-23 (17) And Saul said unto his servants, Provide me now a man that can play well, and bring him to me. (18) Then answered one of the servants, and said, Behold, I have seen a son of Jesse the Bethlehemite, that is cunning in playing, and a mighty valiant man, and a man of war, and prudent in matters, and a comely person, and the LORD is with him. (19) Wherefore Saul sent messengers unto Jesse, and said, Send me David thy son, which is with the sheep. (20) And Jesse took an ass laden with bread, and a bottle of wine, and a kid, and sent them by David his son unto Saul. (21) And David came to Saul, and stood before him: and he loved him greatly; and he became his armourbearer. (22) And Saul sent to Jesse, saying, Let David, I pray thee, stand before me; for he hath found favour in my sight. (23) And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him. Here there is no evidence whatsoever of David singing, but just playing a harp, which his playing of the harp caused an evil spirit to depart, which shows that there is a spirit to music, which in this case it was the Holy Spirit. I do not know how much we truly realize that music is spiritual. And so far in regards to this specific issue at hand, I have not heard any biblical arguments concerning it, from others. Arguments maybe, but not biblical ones. I want to ask you something about what you said here. You mention that you used to like the music of KISS. Did that music effect you in a negative way, to cause you to commit sin? The reason I ask you that is because I grew up listening to TOP 40 music, but even before I got saved, I didn't live the rock n roll lifestyle. When I was a teenager, I heard AC/DC for the first time when "Back In Black" reached the TOP 40, and liked their sound. I wound up purchasing that album. I will never forget my Mother's reaction to the music, and how she asked me why I would listen to what was nothing but noise to her with lyrics you could not understand. I wasn't a head banger, didn't do drugs or drink. I never even smoked cigarettes or was engaged in fornication. I went to a Styx concert, but didn't do any of those things. The question I have here is that based on my personal experiences, the rock music didn't lead me to behave in a sinful way, so I would need more to go on than that.
While I say that, I never liked Petra or so-called Christian rock music. I never felt like it was appropriate to worship God. It was nothing but entertainment. I would listen to music to relax or to help me get through a work day. Something I have found is that if you enjoy music, whatever style that happens to be, it can effect you in a positive way, where being around music you don't like keeps you irritated. I could actually relax listening to rock music, but be irritated by country music. I could relax listening to R & B but not hip hop and rap. It was just what I liked. I hate rap music, so it is easy for me to bash it. I have a bias against it, but is it sinful just because I don't like it? What we have to look at is whether or not there is evidence that rock, R & B, country, bluegrass, heavy metal, rap, disco and dance, etc., are the creation of Lucifer to pervert music, because that is the strongest message I have heard against them, but I haven't seen any proof. It is one of those things that certain people believe God revealed to them, that might be true, but might not be?
But anyway, my other question to you was whether or not listening to KISS or other secular music led you to commit sin? What I am trying to figure out is whether or not the music leads people into sin, or whether or not people in sin gravitate towards worldly music because they can't relate to hymns and worship music? What do you think? If I had to listen to someone playing a harp all day, that would likely irritate me, while listening to classic rock might help me get through the day feeling good. Just to be clear, I am not encouraging people to listen to secular music or condemning those who do. I am not taking a position for or against Christian rock, at least when it comes to it being sinful. I am just trying to carefully consider what is the appropriate position for the church to take, and why? Do we have scripture that is clear on this matter?
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 13:50:49 GMT -5
As far as a worship service goes, my preference is that we sing hymns from a traditional hymn book and have a time where we sing worship songs to God, where we spend time in praise and worship, raising our hands and lifting up the Lord. Whether it is sinful or not, I wouldn't bring any worldly entertainment into the sanctuary, and that includes Christian rock or rap groups. I believe we should be reverent in our worship. We can certainly clap our hands, raise our hands, dance before the Lord as worship (not worldly dancing), and things like that, but everything should be showing reverence and respect towards God.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 13:53:12 GMT -5
I still see the church as Holy ground. I know a lot of people have downplayed the church as nothing but a building, but I don't see it like that. The place we choose to meet for regular worship should be treated with respect. That is one of the reasons I am disgusted with the casual way people come to the House of God.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 15:13:57 GMT -5
To me it is not an issue, of whether it makes you relax or not, even in the world you can have a type of peace, but which is not of God.
Joh 14:27 (27) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
People participate in yoga, and get a false peace and are relaxed, so I find that is not a good basis on judging things.
Did I take drugs as an unbeliever, and go to heavy metal concerts, no.
Did I head bang, not that much, but maybe a little bit.
But it did cause feelings of aggression in me, which at the time I would have thought nothing of it, because I was in the world, and you still have a free will whether to give yourself fully to the spirit of this or that music, but nevertheless the influence is there, and the more you give yourself to it, it will effect you, even if you don't think it will, because if we think that way we are just fooling ourselves.
It is so easy to see that heavy metal is chaotic, you do not need hardly any discernment to see this.
If someone likes chaotic music, and it relaxes them, it is because their flesh loves that chaotic music, which is not a positive thing, it is just the love of the world.
We do not just sin outwardly, but inwardly as well (even sometimes not realizing we do), God says not to love the world.
1Jn 2:15 (15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 15:23:09 GMT -5
The fruit of heavy metal have been proven time and time again, even through statistics, it is undeniable, unless we want to deny it.
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 15:24:25 GMT -5
To me it is not an issue, of whether it makes you relax or not, even in the world you can have a type of peace, but which is not of God. Joh 14:27 (27) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. People participate in yoga, and get a false peace and are relaxed, so I find that is not a good basis on judging things. Did I take drugs as an unbeliever, and go to heavy metal concerts, no. Did I head bang, not that much, but maybe a little bit. But it did cause feelings of aggression in me, which at the time I would have thought nothing of it, because I was in the world, and you still have a free will whether to give yourself fully to the spirit of this or that music, but nevertheless the influence is there, and the more you give yourself to it, it will effect you, even if you don't think it will, because if we think that way we are just fooling ourselves. It is so easy to see that heavy metal is chaotic, you do not need hardly any discernment to see this. If someone likes chaotic music, and it relaxes them, it is because their flesh loves that chaotic music, which is not a positive thing, it is just the love of the world. We do not just sin outwardly, but inwardly as well (even sometimes not realizing we do), God says not to love the world. 1Jn 2:15 (15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The question that has not been answered is how do we determine one particular style of music is of the world while another is not? If the standard is not the lyrics, how do you know?
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 15:29:54 GMT -5
The fruit of heavy metal have been proven time and time again, even through statistics, it is undeniable, unless we want to deny it. Do you have a link to these studies, and how we are effected by heavy metal? What about pop, country, bluegrass, rap, Old School R & B, disco and dance? I haven't seen these studies, so I have no idea what they say and how they were conducted? I have seen studies on a negative effect on plants when heavy metal is played around them, and how they responded well to classical music, but why isn't classical music worldly? What is Christian about it?
If we are looking at the lyrics, at least I can understand that. If a song is promoting sin, I can see how you can call that worldly and negative, but what of music with Christian lyrics like Naominash was asking about? What styles of music are worldly and what are Christian, and what determines that?
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 15:31:11 GMT -5
To me it is not an issue, of whether it makes you relax or not, even in the world you can have a type of peace, but which is not of God. Joh 14:27 (27) Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. People participate in yoga, and get a false peace and are relaxed, so I find that is not a good basis on judging things. Did I take drugs as an unbeliever, and go to heavy metal concerts, no. Did I head bang, not that much, but maybe a little bit. But it did cause feelings of aggression in me, which at the time I would have thought nothing of it, because I was in the world, and you still have a free will whether to give yourself fully to the spirit of this or that music, but nevertheless the influence is there, and the more you give yourself to it, it will effect you, even if you don't think it will, because if we think that way we are just fooling ourselves. It is so easy to see that heavy metal is chaotic, you do not need hardly any discernment to see this. If someone likes chaotic music, and it relaxes them, it is because their flesh loves that chaotic music, which is not a positive thing, it is just the love of the world. We do not just sin outwardly, but inwardly as well (even sometimes not realizing we do), God says not to love the world. 1Jn 2:15 (15) Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. The question that has not been answered is how do we determine one particular style of music is of the world while another is not? If the standard is not the lyrics, how do you know? Ok I see what you are saying here, in the realm of determining things, and I will get into that further on, I have different things I have to share than what I am sharing at the moment, but will eventually get there, which I will use scripture, to show a good form of determining things. Of course one way is by the fruit, but in the things I will mention, I will be using different scriptures. And besides don't you agree that a work of the flesh, can be manifested in every aspect of our lives , if we let the works of the flesh be manifest, such as in our speech, in our dance, in our song, in how we play music, in our actions?
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Post by John on Dec 21, 2019 15:40:44 GMT -5
The question that has not been answered is how do we determine one particular style of music is of the world while another is not? If the standard is not the lyrics, how do you know? Ok I see what you are saying here, in the realm of determining things, and I will get into that further on, I have different things I have to share than what I am sharing at the moment, but will eventually get there, which I will use scripture, to show a good form of determining things. Of course one way is by the fruit, but in the things I will mention, I will be using different scriptures. And besides don't you agree that a work of the flesh, can be manifested in every aspect of our lives , if we let the works of the flesh be manifest, such as in our speech, in our dance, in our song, in how we play music, in our actions? You certainly can be in the flesh or in the Spirit in any activity you do. Anyway, I think this is an interesting and important topic. I am not trying to get ahead of you. I have just been following the discussion, and these are questions I have regarding music. For instance, I have bluegrass gospel albums. The only difference between them and secular bluegrass is the lyrics. Much of the southern gospel could fit in on country radio if you just changed some of the words. The contemporary Christian music sounds like secular pop except for the lyrics.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 16:03:38 GMT -5
Ok I see what you are saying here, in the realm of determining things, and I will get into that further on, I have different things I have to share than what I am sharing at the moment, but will eventually get there, which I will use scripture, to show a good form of determining things. Of course one way is by the fruit, but in the things I will mention, I will be using different scriptures. And besides don't you agree that a work of the flesh, can be manifested in every aspect of our lives , if we let the works of the flesh be manifest, such as in our speech, in our dance, in our song, in how we play music, in our actions? You certainly can be in the flesh or in the Spirit in any activity you do. Anyway, I think this is an interesting and important topic. I am not trying to get ahead of you. I have just been following the discussion, and these are questions I have regarding music. For instance, I have bluegrass gospel albums. The only difference between them and secular bluegrass is the lyrics. Much of the southern gospel could fit in on country radio if you just changed some of the words. The contemporary Christian music sounds like secular pop except for the lyrics.
Oh I totally understand what you are saying in the realm of the bluegrass and pop stuff, but I will show a certain type of difference. I do not know everything about all types of music, but I mainly chose rap and heavy metal, because of the obviousness of it, and because it is easier to see. And the fruit it produces does have to count, and the works it produces has to count as well. You can be singing the right lyrics, and be playing your instruments in the flesh. And irritation in and of itself, of course (which you know) is not discernment, but if you are being genuinely grieved because of the Holy Spirit, as a result of this or that music regardless to the lyrics, there is obviously a reason why the Holy Spirit is causing this feeling in you.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 16:41:33 GMT -5
Here is proof that instruments can be played in a wrong way, and it can displease the Lord:
Amo 5:21-23 (21) I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. (22) Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. (23) Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
Here is a comment on this:
(John Gill)
(Amos 5:23
Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs,.... The ten tribes, very probably, imitated the, temple music at Jerusalem, both vocal and instrumental, and had their songs and hymns of praise, which they sung to certain tunes; but the music of these is called a noise, being very disagreeable to the Lord, as coming from such carnal and wicked persons; and therefore he desires it might cease, be took away, and he be no more troubled with it:
for I will not hear the melody of thy viols: which may be put for all instruments of music used by them, as violins, harps, psalteries, &c. the sound of which, how melodious soever, the, Lord would turn a deaf ear unto, and not regard.)
From what heart things are done in matters to God, and even in the way instruments are played, and many times you can feel things in the way things are played and done, to whether it is of God or not, whether it is attention to self, whether it is gentle, or whether it is harsh.
I do not know why people cannot see this, it really puzzles me.
Now this scripture may not talk about a specific style, but it sure does show that the sound of instruments, done through the wrong heart, is an abomination to God, and he won't hear that music.
But a wrong heart, will stir up playing an instrument in a wrong way, to were it displeases God.
Music does matter to God.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 19:16:49 GMT -5
Deu 12:29-32 (29) When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; (30) Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. (31) Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
So however the nations served their gods, whether it be setting up idols, or even how they worshiped their gods, however they did it, God did not want them to do so towards him.
He does not want us to learn the ways of this world, adopt any of their ways, and use their ways to serve our God, these are very serious statements.
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Post by Giller on Dec 21, 2019 19:53:42 GMT -5
Gen 29:35 (35) And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the LORD: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.
Gen 22:5 (5) And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
These are the first times in the bible, that the words worship and praise appear.
Psa 148:13 (13) Let them praise the name of the LORD: for his name alone is excellent; his glory is above the earth and heaven.
Deu 26:10 (10) And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:
God of course wants us to praise and worship him.
Amo 5:21-23 (21) I hate, I despise your feast days, and I will not smell in your solemn assemblies. (22) Though ye offer me burnt offerings and your meat offerings, I will not accept them: neither will I regard the peace offerings of your fat beasts. (23) Take thou away from me the noise of thy songs; for I will not hear the melody of thy viols.
God can close his hears to the melody of viols, or you can say musically played instruments, to were he does not want to hear it.
Psa 150:3-5 (3) Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp. (4) Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs. (5) Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.
So God wants us to praise him with instruments, and you can see that it says to praise him with stringed instruments, and of course today we have guitars and so on, and then it mentions to praise him with cymbals, which is a type of banging type instrument, which today we still have cymbals, but also drums, bongos and so forth.
So instruments in and of themselves, are not wrong whether it be a piano, guitar, trumpet, harp etc.
And what does he want us to do with instruments? he wants us to praise him.
But how does he want us to worship him?
Is there a specific way? Yes there is.
Joh 4:24 (24) God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.
It is to be done in spirit and in truth, or it is not true worship to him.
Does he want us to look at how the world worships or serves their gods, or whoever, and copy their ways of worship, their ways of serving, and apply it to our God?
Deu 12:29-32 (29) When the LORD thy God shall cut off the nations from before thee, whither thou goest to possess them, and thou succeedest them, and dwellest in their land; (30) Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, How did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise. (31) Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods. (32) What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.
No, absolutely not.
God says to seek him, and that is it.
Here is what the word worship means, in John 4:24?
(Strong's concordance)
(G4352
προσκυνέω proskuneō pros-koo-neh'-o From G4314 and probably a derivative of G2965 (meaning to kiss, like a dog licking his master’s hand); to fawn or crouch to, that is, (literally or figuratively) prostrate oneself in homage (do reverence to, adore): - worship. Total KJV occurrences: 60)
God is not looking for a style, he is not wanting for us to look to the world, so to adopt something of the world and apply it to God, he does not want to be served this way.
He wants us to look heavenward, to him, and if we look just strictly to him, then true praise and worship will follow, and the fruit thereof will follow.
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