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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 10:16:43 GMT -5
The prophesy mentioned Judas as one that Jesus lost. John 17:12
You mean Jesus said he lost none but Judas? Thanks Solid. Jesus is the one that said that.
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Post by frienduff on Jan 22, 2020 10:19:41 GMT -5
The prophesy mentioned Judas as one that Jesus lost. John 17:12
He was saying none of them is lost . Right , BUT the SON of perdtion . HE was the one who was lost . JESUS chose judas . KNOWING full well that the man was a devil . he even says that . But my point is , we need to buckle down on reminding as paul did and others . First I want all to realize something . IF JESUS , or any of those apostels warned about certain things , THEN WE BETTER HEED IT and teach it too . Many have a mind which has been altered into believing a lie . And that lie is simply this , that if somehow we either warn or say things about not continuing in JESUS and being cast out then that is somehow not trusting in HIS FINISHED WORK . OKAY , so lets examine this . JESUS said it first , HE said if a man continues NOT IN ME , HE is cast out . WE KNOW JESUS did not doubt in HIS OWN WORK . PAUL says behold both the goodness and severity of GOD , and that if we don't continue in the goodness of GOD we will be cast out , just like the unbelieving jews were cast out . WE KNOW paul trusted in the finished works of Christ . Or how bout where peter and paul both spoke of having come and tasted and were made partakers OF THE HOLY GHOST and then fell away etc . IF this were not possible , WHY did they warn about it . And yet if we do today , we are told we are NOT TRUSTING IN CHRIST . But if that be the case , I suppose they may as well be saying ,neither did Paul, or peter , or James . All I am trying to do , is get folks back on the right track in that bible . AND if they warned , WE WARN . So at this point I think it best we return to that simplicity . Say all the day long , JESUS ALONE SAVES , but if one continues not in HIM , they are and will be cast out . KEEP it just like the early church did .
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 10:20:14 GMT -5
The prophesy mentioned Judas as one that Jesus lost. John 17:12
You mean Jesus said he lost none but Judas? Thanks for correcting that. I answered too hastily.
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Post by solid on Jan 22, 2020 10:34:20 GMT -5
I believe it is saying that of those the Father gave him, he kept all except Judas. I think he started out saved, but the love of money led him to become a devil.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jan 22, 2020 10:41:40 GMT -5
My apologies I don't really understand the "Once saved always saved" controversy. I agree with what Cletus said in the above post,I think the label is wrong(they are must false converts)...once someone is saved they are saved or they were never realy saved at all,but I do think their are a lot of false converts that think they are saved but are not ,they hold to Christianity as a religion of outward performance and observance of rituals or even attendance at church etc. but they do not have true saving faith just dead religion maybe even "church language" or catch phrases.they know when to stand up and when to sit down type of thing... They profess to know God but by third works they deny him. what about the converts spoken of in this passage?
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
it seems the controversy is between people who go by what the bible says, word by word, line by line and chapter by chapter... and then, there are those who make up what they believe and do not base it off scripture. Gods Word is sure.
the teaching of false converts is a branch from Calvinism folklore.... well they were never of us so they didnt stay with us... read that entire passage of that verse... the passage speaks to wolves in sheeps clothing who came to lead Gods people astray. John was coming behind Paul trying to clean up the mess. Paul around acts 20 even warned them the wolves were coming.... these were false teachers full of the spirit of antiChrist from the word go. therefore, its an entirely different subject. entirely different group of people. if you think me to be incorrect, please give your interpretation of the above two verses because the verse above says they knew Jesus Christ, and the way of righteousness... and this way is the straight and narrow. He Is The Way... and they decided after knowing Him to go another way... to backslide. now yes God can restore but there most surely needs to be a coming to Jesus moment. there is no get saved and live like the devil and remain in Christ. if it were so... Jesus Christ would not judge in righteousness. and The Book tells us in all is ways is judgment. He wont say it is if it aint. He would be lying, and He wont do that.
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Post by Giller on Jan 22, 2020 13:17:29 GMT -5
The gifts and calling of God are without repentence.a scripture that came to mind. In context, this doesn't work. Paul is speaking of how God called Israel, but because they rejected Christ, they are enemies of the cross. The promises that were made to the Jews remain in tact, but in the meantime, those who don't believe in Christ are lost. If anything, this works against unconditional security, because it shows that in spite of the fact that God chose them, because of their unbelief, at this time, they are lost. That passage is in Romans 11:26-36.
I agree of course with you John, and I would like to add that, the repentance part which it speaks of here, it is talking about how God does not change his mind ( does not repent) concerning his calling and gifts. Rom 11:29 (29) For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. And of course concerning salvation, one needs to repent.
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Post by christdiedforoursins on Jan 23, 2020 8:51:04 GMT -5
....humm inversing idea,but if the gift was anything but salvation ,which means being saved from eternal damnation then I think this idea would work,,but because salvation is a gift it cannot be revoked,lost ,misplaced, its not a gift of material substance like keys its a spiritual rebirth,we can grieve the spirit and were commanded not to quench the spirit and to walk by the spirit not gratifying the flesh and its desires mortifying our flesh daily and bringing it into subjection. the holy spirit is Given to us as a garentee earnest (were sealed by God )of things to come.if salvation can be lost is makes God out as not to be a very good saviour and even a liar at worst and not worth us putting our Faith in him...we stand by faith in Jesus our savior our flesh cannot save us we died with Christ we have been born again are made a new creation by being born again by the spirit of God were born incorruptible. Or of the incorruptible seed Of God who is Jesus .If we can loose our salvation after we have been saved that would mean Jesus is not a saviour at all.And that he didn't really die for our sins and that our faith is in vain .But Jesus did die for our sins were saved by trusting in him who is the author and finisher of our faith .many people of faith in the old testament broke The law of God ,David was a murderer and adulterer ,Samson was often visiting harlots David ate the shewbread,Abraham did many things but he was not under the law .but their is a law of faith .Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him as righteousness. There are many people who have been told they are the elected of God they said the prayer and attended the building even maybe 3bible studies a week and twice to 'church 'on Sunday they are not saved because they do not realy have faith...their lives are filled with gluttony and pleasures of this world without care for the week the poor they walk around saying I'm a sinner saved by grace ,,and it can go the other way with the astectics who deny certain foods and marriage and fast alot and have an aversion to colour.Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen ,if we can loose our salvation their is no hope and our faith is void and basically what Jesus has done for us by becoming a man and dying in the place of mankind,is useless....our faith is in he who is faithfully and able to save us .its about Jesus and he is mighty to save....there are sins unto death we cannot pray for ,but if someone sins we have an advocate ,,Jesus who is faithfully and just to forgive us and cleanse us from all unrighteousness..... The problem I find with this post is the same problem I find with most arguments in favor of unconditional eternal security. It is all based on human reasoning rather than scriptural arguments. This is more like a speech than a Bible based set of reasons why we can't lose salvation. Look at some of the things you said.
"If we can lose our salvation after we have been saved, that would mean Jesus is not a savior at all." That doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't mean any such thing. That is like me seeing a person about to fall into a pit, and running up to them and rescuing them before they fall, and telling them exactly where the danger lies. I was their savior, but that doesn't stop them from going back to the same place, ignoring my warnings, and falling into the pit a year down the road. I was still their savior. It is not my fault they returned back to the danger all over again. Our messing up later doesn't make his death in vain. It is of great value to those who endure till the end.
Of course there were people in the Bible that were saved and did terrible things but remained saved. King David was one. In Old Testament times, by faith, they repented and an animal was sacrificed that they could be forgiven. Today, we repent and trust that the blood of Jesus will wash us clean again. These are not difficult arguments to refute, but all of this is just based on human reasoning. There is no scripture here. I appreciate your attempt to defend unconditional security, but I am really seeking Bible based arguments, because we can go back and forth all day just using reasoning like this for and against.
Hi good day my brother ,, i understand your point ,so let's not use human ideas. I will do a search of verses that point to salvation by faith in Jesus .I don't really understand the OSAS ideas as heresy ...I only understand false professors of the faith...as OSAS is also not scripture..its a non biblical idea..your problem to my understanding is with false converts,trees bringing forth bad fruit ,,or goats.people who say lord lord but don't do what Jesus says....I get the idea ..but never heard OSAS except on the internet..
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 23, 2020 8:55:48 GMT -5
The problem I find with this post is the same problem I find with most arguments in favor of unconditional eternal security. It is all based on human reasoning rather than scriptural arguments. This is more like a speech than a Bible based set of reasons why we can't lose salvation. Look at some of the things you said.
"If we can lose our salvation after we have been saved, that would mean Jesus is not a savior at all." That doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't mean any such thing. That is like me seeing a person about to fall into a pit, and running up to them and rescuing them before they fall, and telling them exactly where the danger lies. I was their savior, but that doesn't stop them from going back to the same place, ignoring my warnings, and falling into the pit a year down the road. I was still their savior. It is not my fault they returned back to the danger all over again. Our messing up later doesn't make his death in vain. It is of great value to those who endure till the end.
Of course there were people in the Bible that were saved and did terrible things but remained saved. King David was one. In Old Testament times, by faith, they repented and an animal was sacrificed that they could be forgiven. Today, we repent and trust that the blood of Jesus will wash us clean again. These are not difficult arguments to refute, but all of this is just based on human reasoning. There is no scripture here. I appreciate your attempt to defend unconditional security, but I am really seeking Bible based arguments, because we can go back and forth all day just using reasoning like this for and against.
Hi good day my brother ,, i understand your point ,so let's not use human ideas. I will do a search of verses that point to salvation by faith in Jesus .I don't really understand the OSAS ideas as heresy ...I only understand false professors of the faith...as OSAS is also not scripture..its a non biblical idea..your problem to my understanding is with false converts,trees bringing forth bad fruit ,,or goats.people who say lord lord but don't do what Jesus says....I get the idea ..but never heard OSAS except on the internet.. I don't know if you have had much contact with Bloodbought at Worthy Forums, but he is teaching that a man who is saved by faith can commit 1000 acts of murder and rape each day without ever repenting and go to heaven. That is how far some people go when teaching the once saved, always saved doctrine.
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Post by christdiedforoursins on Jan 23, 2020 9:50:47 GMT -5
King James Bible Online KJV
Bible Verses About Eternal Security Bible verses related to Eternal Security from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order
John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Read More...)
John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand.
John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,
1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
2 Corinthians 1:22 - Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
Romans 8:38-39 - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (Read More...)
Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ:
1 John 5:10-13 - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (Read More...)
Topics and verses are auto-generated from user searches. If a verse or topic does not belong, please contact us. Some scripture references/categories courtesy of Open Bible .info under CC BY 3.0
Related Bible Dictionary Terms: Eternal death Eternal life
Search the King James Version (KJV) for more references about Eternal Security...
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 23, 2020 10:02:34 GMT -5
King James Bible Online KJV Bible Verses About Eternal Security Bible verses related to Eternal Security from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Read More...) John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 2 Corinthians 1:22 - Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Romans 8:38-39 - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (Read More...) Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ: 1 John 5:10-13 - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (Read More...) Topics and verses are auto-generated from user searches. If a verse or topic does not belong, please contact us. Some scripture references/categories courtesy of Open Bible .info under CC BY 3.0 Related Bible Dictionary Terms: Eternal death Eternal life Search the King James Version (KJV) for more references about Eternal Security... Thank you for that. This is exactly what John was looking for is someone to address this using scripture. Just so you know, we can give just as many verses that show you can lose salvation. Some are in the Statement of Faith. When I have a little more time, I will look up all of them in context and respond to them.
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Post by christdiedforoursins on Jan 23, 2020 10:03:06 GMT -5
The problem I find with this post is the same problem I find with most arguments in favor of unconditional eternal security. It is all based on human reasoning rather than scriptural arguments. This is more like a speech than a Bible based set of reasons why we can't lose salvation. Look at some of the things you said.
"If we can lose our salvation after we have been saved, that would mean Jesus is not a savior at all." That doesn't make any sense. It wouldn't mean any such thing. That is like me seeing a person about to fall into a pit, and running up to them and rescuing them before they fall, and telling them exactly where the danger lies. I was their savior, but that doesn't stop them from going back to the same place, ignoring my warnings, and falling into the pit a year down the road. I was still their savior. It is not my fault they returned back to the danger all over again. Our messing up later doesn't make his death in vain. It is of great value to those who endure till the end.
Of course there were people in the Bible that were saved and did terrible things but remained saved. King David was one. In Old Testament times, by faith, they repented and an animal was sacrificed that they could be forgiven. Today, we repent and trust that the blood of Jesus will wash us clean again. These are not difficult arguments to refute, but all of this is just based on human reasoning. There is no scripture here. I appreciate your attempt to defend unconditional security, but I am really seeking Bible based arguments, because we can go back and forth all day just using reasoning like this for and against.
Hi good day my brother ,, i understand your point ,so let's not use human ideas. I will do a search of verses that point to salvation by faith in Jesus .I don't really understand the OSAS ideas as heresy ...I only understand false professors of the faith...as OSAS is also not scripture..its a non biblical idea..your problem to my understanding is with false converts,trees bringing forth bad fruit ,,or goats.people who say lord lord but don't do what Jesus says....I get the idea ..but never heard OSAS except on the internet.. If you told some one about a ditch but they still didn't listen and fell into it you were messenger but not a savior,a saviour in theory should have fallen in the gap so much so to prevent you from falling in it ..the cross of Christ would have been a better illustration,,.to choose .Christ preached repentence and the good news of the kingdom ...he healed the sick raised the dead forgave sins and many other mighty works.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 23, 2020 10:08:05 GMT -5
Hi good day my brother ,, i understand your point ,so let's not use human ideas. I will do a search of verses that point to salvation by faith in Jesus .I don't really understand the OSAS ideas as heresy ...I only understand false professors of the faith...as OSAS is also not scripture..its a non biblical idea..your problem to my understanding is with false converts,trees bringing forth bad fruit ,,or goats.people who say lord lord but don't do what Jesus says....I get the idea ..but never heard OSAS except on the internet.. If you told some one about a ditch but they still didn't listen and fell into it you were messenger but not a savior,a saviour in theory should have fallen in the gap so much so to prevent you from falling in it ..the cross of Christ would have been a better illustration,,.to choose .Christ preached repentence and the good news of the kingdom ...he healed the sick raised the dead forgave sins and many other mighty works. If you warn someone of danger and they are able to avoid it, you were their savior at that time. If later on they choose not to listen anymore, that is their fault. You can walk away.
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Post by christdiedforoursins on Jan 23, 2020 10:16:30 GMT -5
King James Bible Online KJV Bible Verses About Eternal Security Bible verses related to Eternal Security from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance - Sort By Book Order John 10:27-29 - My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (Read More...) John 6:37 - All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 10:28 - And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any [man] pluck them out of my hand. John 5:24 - Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. Romans 11:29 - For the gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance. Jude 1:24 - Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present [you] faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 1 John 5:13 - These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. 2 Corinthians 1:22 - Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Romans 8:38-39 - For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, (Read More...) Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Philippians 1:6 - Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ: 1 John 5:10-13 - He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son. (Read More...) Topics and verses are auto-generated from user searches. If a verse or topic does not belong, please contact us. Some scripture references/categories courtesy of Open Bible .info under CC BY 3.0 Related Bible Dictionary Terms: Eternal death Eternal life Search the King James Version (KJV) for more references about Eternal Security... Thank you for that. This is exactly what John was looking for is someone to address this using scripture. Just so you know, we can give just as many verses that show you can lose salvation. Some are in the Statement of Faith. When I have a little more time, I will look up all of them in context and respond to them. I saw its in. The statement of faith if people are denying Christ s ability to save sinners the power of the holy spirit the new birth ,and trying to judge Jesus and him as a saviour and that nothing can separate us from his love I have no place here if this idea is in the statement of faith..its an issue of unblief both by people who despise the mercy of God abuse his grace and by people who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah basically..thank you my friend. I think I'm out of here to preach to the lost the good news ..this argument just shows that people who agree with it don't have faith in Jesus,, and or are confusing false converts bad behaviour with what Jesus has done ..I won't waste my time. π
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 23, 2020 10:27:35 GMT -5
I think what I will do is address these one at a time.
John 10:27-29 "My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all: and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand."
This is a good one to start with. What does Jesus say about his sheep? They hear him and they follow him. If you do those two things, you are eternally secure. If you don't, none of the rest of this applies to you. These conditions must be met to hear and follow or verses 28 and 29 don't matter.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 23, 2020 10:31:44 GMT -5
Thank you for that. This is exactly what John was looking for is someone to address this using scripture. Just so you know, we can give just as many verses that show you can lose salvation. Some are in the Statement of Faith. When I have a little more time, I will look up all of them in context and respond to them. I saw its in. The statement of faith if people are denying Christ s ability to save sinners the power of the holy spirit the new birth ,and trying to judge Jesus and him as a saviour and that nothing can separate us from his love I have no place here if this idea is in the statement of faith..its an issue of unblief both by people who despise the mercy of God abuse his grace and by people who don't believe Jesus is the Messiah basically..thank you my friend. I think I'm out of here to preach to the lost the good news ..this argument just shows that people who agree with it don't have faith in Jesus,, and or are confusing false converts bad behaviour with what Jesus has done ..I won't waste my time. π This is the kind of emotional, knee jerk comments we see from OSAS believers. There is no basis in fact. It is all emotion. Can you take the time to look at scripture objectively? I was looking forward to discussing this rationally with someone, and I thought that was you.
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