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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 9:48:12 GMT -5
All i can do is share my observation that nowhere does it say in scripture that every individual who is baptized in the Holy Spirit receives the gift of tongues. On the contrary the scriptures I just brought and that Letters brought clearly say otherwise. Where it talks about the Holy Spirit falling upon a group, those references are referring to the group as a whole....the scripture testifies that the group prophesied and spoke in tongues....because some individuals in that group were speaking in tongues or prophesying. (Which reminds me of a point I wanted to mention about those references.....we don't say that every individual prophesies when they receive the Holy Spirit, so why do we say that every individual speaks in tongues.) You are misinterpreting it. Prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues, and when people were filled in Acts, they all spoke in tongues, not just a handful.
If tongues prayer language isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit...then where does it come from.....we ought to rebuke it in that case rather than receive it. If you are not convinced by the word of God then I don't know what else there is to say. Bless you.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 9:50:31 GMT -5
When I'm too busy guessing and trying to figure things out it's usually because I am not at rest. We receive the things of the spirit when we are at rest. They are received and not figured out....the scripture says what do we have that we did not receive. It's better to just accept that we do not understand something for a time (and seek and wait patiently until the Lord gives us light) than to cling to a wrong understanding of our own or someone else's making. Once a preconceived wrong understanding takes root in the mind, I have noticed that it blinds us to what is clear in the scripture otherwise, and it's often very difficult to receive correction on it....it just seems to get stuck in there like hook with a barb on it and we are trying to look at scripture through the distorted lens of a wrong understanding instead of letting the word correct and adjust our thinking. We need to be willing to lay down our own understanding and allow the word of God to renew our mind on the thing. Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
This is a good point. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know." For a while. There are a lot of churches that teach that speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit. I disagree but I would not avoid a church that taught that. I just would not want them to take it to any extremes. Amen.....just be careful to avoid all false teachings though. Scripture doesn't say we need to produce evidence to prove anything for anybody else's satisfaction....it only talks about fruits.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 9:54:39 GMT -5
You are misinterpreting it. Prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues, and when people were filled in Acts, they all spoke in tongues, not just a handful.
If tongues prayer language isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit...then where does it come from.....we ought to rebuke it in that case rather than receive it. If you are not convinced by the word of God then I don't know what else there is to say. Bless you. You keep twisting what I am saying. First of all, I said there is a difference between being able to pray in tongues and having the gift of tongues, so what did you do? You came back and said not everyone has the gift of tongues, as though I said they did. I never said that. Now you come back and say that I am claiming that prayer language tongues is not "a gift of the Holy Spirit," so that means it doesn't come from the Holy Spirit. That is ludicrous! The Baptism in the Holy Ghost itself is a gift from God, and it is the Spirit that prays through us. It is still not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit. They are entirely separate.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 9:56:47 GMT -5
I found the thread I was talking about, that shows that the initial evidence for receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. You can read it for yourself and make up your own mind.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Jan 21, 2020 9:57:01 GMT -5
This is a good point. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know." For a while. There are a lot of churches that teach that speaking in tongues is THE initial evidence of baptism with the Holy Spirit. I disagree but I would not avoid a church that taught that. I just would not want them to take it to any extremes. Amen.....just be careful to avoid all false teachings though. Scripture doesn't say we need to produce evidence to prove anything for anybody else's satisfaction....it only talks about fruits. I definitely think the fruit of the Spirit have to be sought after. I'm not sure if it's possible to avoid all false teaching the in any church, however. The more Scripture I read, the more I realize that there are just a lot of things Christians say that aren't in the Bible. I had to stop listening to so many speakers because I was relying on them instead of Scripture. And some of them were just wrong on important things.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 9:58:26 GMT -5
That thread is in the Gospel And Acts section. If you read the OP and don't agree with me, that is fine, but I am not making this claim based just on feelings. I have a lot of scripture to back me up.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 10:14:33 GMT -5
I went back and edited two posts for content because they were accusatory. One was made by Watchful towards me, and one was from me to Watchful. Accusing someone openly in the threads is not a good idea, no matter who does it, including me.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Jan 21, 2020 10:14:42 GMT -5
I found the thread I was talking about, that shows that the initial evidence for receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. You can read it for yourself and make up your own mind.
This one?
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 10:17:52 GMT -5
I found the thread I was talking about, that shows that the initial evidence for receiving the Baptism in the Holy Spirit is speaking in tongues. You can read it for yourself and make up your own mind.
This one? Yes, that is it. Thanks. Like I said, if you read it and disagree, that is no big deal. I admit that it can be a confusing topic. Then, there is the issue of how some Apostolic churches teach you aren't saved till you speak in tongues, and there is no scripture to support that.
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Post by solid on Jan 21, 2020 11:29:33 GMT -5
Yes, that is it. Thanks. Like I said, if you read it and disagree, that is no big deal. I admit that it can be a confusing topic. Then, there is the issue of how some Apostolic churches teach you aren't saved till you speak in tongues, and there is no scripture to support that.
I don't think you have to speak in tongues to be saved, but everyone who is baptized in the Spirit in the Bible spoke in tongues. I do think 2fw could be filled, but chose not to speak in tongues out loud. I don't think there are a lot of fake tongues, but people lack faith to speak what they are given to say. Sometimes you have to step out by faith and act upon it.
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 11:33:28 GMT -5
Yes, that is it. Thanks. Like I said, if you read it and disagree, that is no big deal. I admit that it can be a confusing topic. Then, there is the issue of how some Apostolic churches teach you aren't saved till you speak in tongues, and there is no scripture to support that.
I don't think you have to speak in tongues to be saved, but everyone who is baptized in the Spirit in the Bible spoke in tongues. I do think 2fw could be filled, but chose not to speak in tongues out loud. I don't think there are a lot of fake tongues, but people lack faith to speak what they are given to say. Sometimes you have to step out by faith and act upon it. Some may not be real, but we aren't qualified to make those judgments.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 13:14:20 GMT -5
If tongues prayer language isn't a gift of the Holy Spirit...then where does it come from.....we ought to rebuke it in that case rather than receive it. If you are not convinced by the word of God then I don't know what else there is to say. Bless you. You keep twisting what I am saying. First of all, I said there is a difference between being able to pray in tongues and having the gift of tongues, so what did you do? You came back and said not everyone has the gift of tongues, as though I said they did. I never said that. Now you come back and say that I am claiming that prayer language tongues is not "a gift of the Holy Spirit," so that means it doesn't come from the Holy Spirit. That is ludicrous! The Baptism in the Holy Ghost itself is a gift from God, and it is the Spirit that prays through us. It is still not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit. They are entirely separate.
You said, "prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues"........and here you are saying "it is not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit"......so I don't think I misunderstood what you are saying...unless what you are saying is not actually what you mean specifically. (Which I'm gathering here that it isn't.) Either way the scriptures that were brought are so clear about it and should have put this issue to rest. I don't think there is anything more that can be said, have a blessed day.
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Post by 777 on Jan 21, 2020 13:27:00 GMT -5
You keep twisting what I am saying. First of all, I said there is a difference between being able to pray in tongues and having the gift of tongues, so what did you do? You came back and said not everyone has the gift of tongues, as though I said they did. I never said that. Now you come back and say that I am claiming that prayer language tongues is not "a gift of the Holy Spirit," so that means it doesn't come from the Holy Spirit. That is ludicrous! The Baptism in the Holy Ghost itself is a gift from God, and it is the Spirit that prays through us. It is still not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit. They are entirely separate.
You said, "prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues"........and here you are saying "it is not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit"......so I don't think I misunderstood what you are saying...unless what you are saying is not actually what you mean specifically. (Which I'm gathering here that it isn't.) Either way the scriptures that were brought are so clear about it and should have put this issue to rest. I don't think there is anything more that can be said, have a blessed day. John holds to a traditional Pentecostal position on tongues, and I have no problem understanding him, as I am Pentecostal. There is a difference between the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. The tongues are not the gift, the Spirit is, and with Him living inside, He prays through us. Any Spirit filled believer can pray in tongues, without having the gift of tongues.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2020 14:48:53 GMT -5
You said, "prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues"........and here you are saying "it is not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit"......so I don't think I misunderstood what you are saying...unless what you are saying is not actually what you mean specifically. (Which I'm gathering here that it isn't.) Either way the scriptures that were brought are so clear about it and should have put this issue to rest. I don't think there is anything more that can be said, have a blessed day. John holds to a traditional Pentecostal position on tongues, and I have no problem understanding him, as I am Pentecostal. There is a difference between the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. The tongues are not the gift, the Spirit is, and with Him living inside, He prays through us. Any Spirit filled believer can pray in tongues, without having the gift of tongues. Okay, thanks for clearing up the confusion. As you can tell, that is not what I believe those scriptures are saying and we need our thoughts to be taken captive to the word of God. There is so much error being perpetuated in the churches....it wasn't until the Lord led me out that He began to unveil His word after I shut out every voice but His. Well, isn't that funny, many years ago as a young believer I went to a Pentecostal church for several years and they didn't preach much about spiritual gifts, so I wasn't aware of this belief, I think they tended to want to keep things very conservative, although they seemed to allow the occasional prophetic word to be called out.....but what you are saying makes sense because at one point when I decided to become an "official" member...I was told to go the church one evening and three strange men were there who I had never seen before, who took me alone in a dimly lit room in the back and tried to get me to speak in tongues...I mean they were working so hard and breaking out in a sweat trying to get me to speak in tongues. I had no idea what was going on, I was just so nervous and feeling vulnerable in that situation, in the end they gave up and I was just so glad to get out of there. It's so sad what idiotic and unwise things churches get up to when they are ignorant of the ways of the Lord. And I guess they were so ashamed of the Holy Spirit they preferred to consign Him to a dark little room in the back at night time and frighten a poor gal half to death....I mean, honestly, really? Anyhow that explains why they were insisting so hard that I speak in tongues. Lord knows how I HATE RELIGION, and so does He. Come out of her my people, and then let the Lord get her out of you.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 21, 2020 15:00:15 GMT -5
John holds to a traditional Pentecostal position on tongues, and I have no problem understanding him, as I am Pentecostal. There is a difference between the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. The tongues are not the gift, the Spirit is, and with Him living inside, He prays through us. Any Spirit filled believer can pray in tongues, without having the gift of tongues. Okay, thanks for clearing up the confusion. As you can tell, that is not what I believe those scriptures are saying and we need our thoughts to be taken captive to the word of God. There is so much error being perpetuated in the churches....it wasn't until the Lord led me out that He began to unveil His word after I shut out every voice but His. Well, isn't that funny, many years ago as a young believer I went to a Pentecostal church for several years and they didn't preach much about spiritual gifts, so I wasn't aware of this belief, I think they tended to want to keep things very conservative, although they seemed to allow the occasional prophetic word to be called out.....but what you are saying makes sense because at one point when I decided to become an "official" member...I was told to go the church one evening and three strange men were there who I had never seen before, who took me alone in a dimly lit room in the back and tried to get me to speak in tongues...I mean they were working so hard and breaking out in a sweat trying to get me to speak in tongues. I had no idea what was going on, I was just so nervous and feeling vulnerable in that situation, in the end they gave up and I was just so glad to get out of there. It's so sad what idiotic and unwise things churches get up to when they are ignorant of the ways of the Lord. And I guess they were so ashamed of the Holy Spirit they preferred to consign Him to a dark little room in the back at night time and frighten a poor gal half to death....I mean, honestly, really? Anyhow that explains why they were insisting so hard that I speak in tongues. Lord knows how I HATE RELIGION, and so does He. Come out of her my people, and then let the Lord get her out of you. I have never heard of any church doing that! In all Pentecostal churches I know of, they just have prayer lines where people are invited to come forward to receive the Holy Ghost baptism. Nothing is done in secret in a back room. They also lay hands on the sick. We are not told to come out from the church, but to come out of the world.
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