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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 21, 2020 20:28:48 GMT -5
What the BIBLE says is that these are different operations/administrations of the same gift called tongues. No it does not. That is your interpretation, but it doesn't say that.
Actually, it does.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.” - 1 Corinthians 12:4
Just as discernment of spirits can be manifested in other ways (smell, feelings, visions, etc).
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 20:33:12 GMT -5
No it does not. That is your interpretation, but it doesn't say that.
Actually, it does.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.” - 1 Corinthians 12:4
Just as discernment of spirits can be manifested in other ways (smell, feelings, visions, etc).
It doesn't say that prayer tongues are a different administration/operation of the gift of tongues. Of course there are diversity of gifts.
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Post by Jesus Christ teachings on Jan 21, 2020 21:17:14 GMT -5
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:37-38
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Post by John on Jan 21, 2020 21:22:31 GMT -5
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:37-38 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified). John 7:39
For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring. Isaiah 44:3
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 6:19:08 GMT -5
I am sorry to hear that. We need God to increase our faith. I believe laying hands on people to receive the Holy Spirit requires more than faith.
You have to know what you are doing and that people is able to receive Him.
I would just explain with some preaching and then those who are willing will prompt themselves to receive Him.
“...when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that
Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them...” - Acts 8:14
They cannot receive what they do not know. The gospel must be preached first.
“...when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He had fallen upon none of them.” - Acts 8:15-16
And only now you can lay hands.
“Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.” - Acts 8:17
Blessings!This agrees with where it says signs will follow the preaching of the gospel.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 6:21:01 GMT -5
What the BIBLE says is that these are different operations/administrations of the same gift called tongues. No it does not. That is your interpretation, but it doesn't say that.
1Co 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 6:26:39 GMT -5
If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. John 7:37-38 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified). John 7:39
For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring. Isaiah 44:3
Jhn 4:10-14 Jesus answered her, “If you knew the gift of God and who it is that asks you for a drink, you would have asked him and he would have given you living water.” “Sir,” the woman said, “you have nothing to draw with and the well is deep. Where can you get this living water? Are you greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well and drank from it himself, as did also his sons and his livestock?” Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, but whoever drinks the water I give them will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give them will become in them a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 7:01:35 GMT -5
No it does not. That is your interpretation, but it doesn't say that.
1Co 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Since our prayer language is not one of the gifts, none of that applies.
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Post by solid on Jan 22, 2020 7:10:25 GMT -5
You said, "prayer language tongues is not the gift of tongues"........and here you are saying "it is not the same thing as the gifts of the Spirit"......so I don't think I misunderstood what you are saying...unless what you are saying is not actually what you mean specifically. (Which I'm gathering here that it isn't.) Either way the scriptures that were brought are so clear about it and should have put this issue to rest. I don't think there is anything more that can be said, have a blessed day. John holds to a traditional Pentecostal position on tongues, and I have no problem understanding him, as I am Pentecostal. There is a difference between the gift of tongues and the gift of the Holy Ghost. The tongues are not the gift, the Spirit is, and with Him living inside, He prays through us. Any Spirit filled believer can pray in tongues, without having the gift of tongues. Amen. That is what my church teaches too.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 7:26:56 GMT -5
1Co 12:4-11 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Since our prayer language is not one of the gifts, none of that applies. Brother, to my knowledge the bible just simply does not speak of the prayer language separately from the other gifts.......all the scriptures deal with them together as one gift as far as I have found. I just have never seen any....but if you know of any that does deal with it separately then please bring them. So far nobody has brought any scripture to support that belief. On the contrary all the scriptures that I have seen do otherwise. Here are some more, continuing on about spiritual gifts in 1 Corinthians 14....... tongues speaking is clearly been treated as one single gift, the only difference being whether or not there is someone to interpret it or not...otherwise the same tongues is only your own prayer language for your own spiritual benefit, not benefiting others in the church. Because of the length of the whole passage I am only quoting one chunk of it here (but we need to please try and read it without any preconceptions and just let the word speak to us): 1Co 14:1-19 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries. But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified. I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 7:40:25 GMT -5
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. I want to try to address this from the Bible and from my understanding as a Pentecostal Pastor. I was Pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church, and am very familiar with what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals and charismatic churches teach. These two groups are not exactly the same, as Apostolic churches also differ in certain areas. I am not concerned with explaining the differences so much as just showing what the Bible has to say. Let's begin with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me because I go to the Father. John 16:7-16
Jesus considered the Baptism of the Holy Ghost of great importance. It was not some after thought or something that was of little value compared to everything else.
And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:4-8
Once again, Jesus places great emphasis on the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Before I continue, every born again Christian has a measure of the Spirit, or they wouldn't belong to Christ, but not every Christian has received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Let's move on.
AND when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4
Before we continue, notice a couple of things. First of all, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues. It was not just some of them that spoke in tongues, but all of them. This event occurred while they were in the upper room, and they all spoke the same language, so they didn't need to speak in other tongues in the upper room to be understood. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't understand other tongues. If this was only for some and only so people of other languages could understand, why would they need to all speak with other tongues while in the upper room?
Apparently, they leave the upper room and go out into the streets, and are still speaking in tongues. As a result, people heard them speaking in different languages. At the time, there were people gathered there from "every nation under heaven" and they heard these men speak "in our own tongue, wherein we were born." They were speaking in real languages, but not ones they had ever learned. The Spirit was speaking through them. What were they speaking? "The wonderful works of God." I am not convinced they were preaching a sermon or anything close to that. They were likely praising God in words they didn't understand, but the people gathered there did. Speaking in tongues was an initial evidence they had received the Holy Spirit, and they were not the only people to experience this.
In Acts Chapter 10, Peter went to the house of a gentile named Cornelius to preach the gospel to him and his family. Notice what it says happened after they believed and got saved. Verses 44-48
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Notice that the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word, not some of them. The Apostles recognized they had been filled because of the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Once again, this is not the final example we have that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence. We are given a third example. In Acts chapter 19, the Apostles encountered people that believed because of John the Baptist and had received water baptism, but not the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Notice what it says in verse 2-6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them; the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
It wasn't just a few that spoke in tongues, but all of them as an initial evidence. I would also point out that Simon the sorcerer saw this taking place, and desired the ability to lay hands on people to where they would receive the Holy Ghost. There had to be some kind of evidence people were receiving or he wouldn't try to purchase this ability with money. It is separate from the salvation experience. It is also different from the gift of the Spirit of speaking in tongues. The Holy Ghost himself is a gift from God, but the Holy spirit will then give additional gifts to Christians to use for God's purposes. One is called the gift of tongues and there is also the gift of interpretation of tongues. The Bible speaks of that in Corinthians, and gives certain guidelines for using these gifts so people won't do things that are disruptive and out of order. If a person speaks in tongues, to be in order, there must be an interpretation given. The question came up about all the people speaking in tongues that don't interpret. In Pentecostal churches, the people do not sit quietly while one person prays a prayer for all, but everyone prays in their own words at the same time, and sometimes that is in tongues. These prayers are personal and don't require an interpretation, and are not out of order or disruptive. There is no reason to sit around trying to judge if they are praying in a real language. That is between them and God. We have reason to judge doctrine, not individual's prayer language.
I want to address something else. There are tongues of angels, as Paul mentions them. In 1 Corinthians 13:1, it says, "THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Paul says in chapter 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This is the prayer language we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Ghost. That is different from the gift of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:3,4, Paul says "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." They are two different things. Paul did not make light of prayer tongues. In chapter 14:18,19 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Jesus didn't make light of tongues and neither did Paul. Paul is speaking of doing things in an orderly manner. That is all.
As far as being slain in the Spirit goes, I have experienced this many times and have prayed for at least one person that was slain in the Spirit. If you have never experienced it, you wouldn't understand. This is nothing more than going into a trance like state for a time while the Spirit of God ministers to you. Trances are in the Bible. Peter went into a trance and saw a vision that led to him going to preach to Cornelius and his household.
Are there things taking place in the church world that are not from God? Of course there is. I am aware of the church where someone was wearing a dog collar and chain and saying that "where he is I will follow." That was nothing more than flesh. It was a type of word picture. An example like that hardly compares with someone being under the power of God so strong they fall into a trance. I have heard of people rolling on the floor, which led to the name, "holy rollers," but I have never seen or experienced this. I have heard of many different things taking place in charismatic and Pentecostal churches that are questionable, but it is my position that every person that receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues when they are initially filled, and there are numerous examples of this in Acts as I have already shown. I pray in tongues on a regular basis. It is really nobody's place to judge whether it is real or not. I am very careful about judging any potential manifestation of the Spirit. I might question some things within myself, but it has to be completely unbiblical for me to openly attack it.
I am sure this will lead to questions, or I expect it will. Feel free. I will do my best to answer them, but I think I have pretty well made my position clear as to what I believe.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 9:47:02 GMT -5
Actually, it does.
“There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.” - 1 Corinthians 12:4
Just as discernment of spirits can be manifested in other ways (smell, feelings, visions, etc).
It doesn't say that prayer tongues are a different administration/operation of the gift of tongues. Of course there are diversity of gifts.
You want to limit the baptism with the Holy Spirit to tongues in a way that those who do not pray or speak tongues are not baptized.
And this is not true.
Not all who receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit will manifest tongues or receive the gift of tongues, or prayer language, etc.
“Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” - 1 Corinthians 12:30
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them...” - Romans 12:6
I do not understand the problem of accepting that...
Just because you have received a gift, or prayer language or spoke tongues it does not mean others will...
“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” - 1 Corinthians 12:11
You fail to comprehend or accept the diversity of the body of Christ.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” - Ephesians 4:7
What you are doing is imposing your experiences to others.
Not all people will have the same experiences, there were people who were baptized in Pentecosts, others while hearing the Word, others when hands were laid on them...
Blessings!
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 9:50:54 GMT -5
It doesn't say that prayer tongues are a different administration/operation of the gift of tongues. Of course there are diversity of gifts.
You want to limit the baptism with the Holy Spirit to tongues in a way that those who do not pray or speak tongues are not baptized.
And this is not true.
Not all who receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit will manifest tongues or receive the gift of tongues, or prayer language, etc.
“Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” - 1 Corinthians 12:30
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them...” - Romans 12:6
You fail to comprehend or accept the diversity of the body of Christ.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” - Ephesians 4:7
What you are doing is imposing your experiences to others.
Not all people will have the same experiences, there were people who were baptized in Pentecosts, others while hearing the Word, others when hands were laid on them...
Blessings! I gave Bible examples, not just personal experiences. There are those in the upper room, as well as Cornelius and his household and John's disciples. They all spoke in tongues. None were left out.
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Post by solid on Jan 22, 2020 9:54:47 GMT -5
It doesn't say that prayer tongues are a different administration/operation of the gift of tongues. Of course there are diversity of gifts.
You want to limit the baptism with the Holy Spirit to tongues in a way that those who do not pray or speak tongues are not baptized.
And this is not true.
Not all who receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit will manifest tongues or receive the gift of tongues, or prayer language, etc.
“Do all have gifts of healings? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret?” - 1 Corinthians 12:30
“Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them...” - Romans 12:6
I do not understand the problem of accepting that...
Just because you have received a gift, or prayer language or spoke tongues it does not mean others will...
“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” - 1 Corinthians 12:11
You fail to comprehend or accept the diversity of the body of Christ.
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ’s gift.” - Ephesians 4:7
What you are doing is imposing your experiences to others.
Not all people will have the same experiences, there were people who were baptized in Pentecosts, others while hearing the Word, others when hands were laid on them...
Blessings!John gave a lot of scripture. How can you say he is only giving personal experiences?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 10:03:52 GMT -5
I gave Bible examples, not just personal experiences. There are those in the upper room, as well as Cornelius and his household and John's disciples. They all spoke in tongues. None were left out.
OK, and I already told you with Scriptures telling what the baptism with the Holy Spirit really is.
And it is not tongues, it is repentance to life by the knowledge of Truth.
“I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” - Mark 1:8
“...when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...” - John 16:13
And the Spirit came in Pentecosts.
“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind...” - Acts 2:2
“...the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.” - Acts 10:44
“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” - Acts 2:4
“When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God,
saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” - Acts 11:18
Then, yes, one can be baptized with the Holy Spirit and yet not receive tongues, prayer language, etc.
“...and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and they spoke the word of God with boldness.” - Acts 4:31
The gift they receive is the Holy Spirit itself, which is the Spirit of Truth.
And if you have the Holy Spirit you can manifest all gifts.
“But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.” - 1 Corinthians 12:11
And I would like to add the Lord has confirmed to me that I was baptized by His Holy Spirit tough I never spoke with tongues.
Blessings!
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