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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 10:07:26 GMT -5
I need to repeat again that I never said the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is tongues. Tongues are the result of being baptized. The Spirit prays through us.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 10:18:55 GMT -5
I need to repeat again that I never said the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is tongues. Tongues are the result of being baptized...
That is your mistake.
The result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” - Matthew 7:21
The result of it is a new life.
“...when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...” - John 16:13
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;
old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” - Matthew 7:20
That is why John said:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” - Matthew 3:11
That is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit: Repentance by the knowledge of the Truth.
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” - John 14:17
Blessings!
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 10:22:55 GMT -5
I need to repeat again that I never said the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is tongues. Tongues are the result of being baptized...
That is your mistake.
The result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” - Matthew 7:21
The result of it is a new life.
“...when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...” - John 16:13
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;
old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” - Matthew 7:20
That is why John said:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” - Matthew 3:11
That is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit: Repentance by the knowledge of the Truth.
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” - John 14:17
Blessings! And John 14:17 started to be fulfilled in Pentecosts:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” - Matthew 3:11
“for John truly baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit...” - Acts 1:5
“And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind...” - Acts 2:2
“...the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word.” - Acts 10:44
“And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.” - Acts 2:4
“When they heard these things they became silent; and they glorified God,
saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life.” - Acts 11:18
Blessings!
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 10:24:58 GMT -5
I need to repeat again that I never said the Baptism in the Holy Ghost is tongues. Tongues are the result of being baptized...
That is your mistake.
The result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” - Matthew 7:21
The result of it is a new life.
“...when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...” - John 16:13
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;
old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” - Matthew 7:20
That is why John said:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” - Matthew 3:11
That is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit: Repentance by the knowledge of the Truth.
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” - John 14:17
Blessings! Then how come in all of the examples I gave, they all spoke in tongues?
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 10:30:40 GMT -5
That is your mistake.
The result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit is not tongues...
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’
shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.” - Matthew 7:21
The result of it is a new life.
“...when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth...” - John 16:13
“Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation;
old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.” - 2 Corinthians 5:17
“For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” - 1 Corinthians 12:13
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” - Matthew 7:20
That is why John said:
“I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I,
whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.” - Matthew 3:11
That is the result of the baptism with the Holy Spirit: Repentance by the knowledge of the Truth.
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive,
because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” - John 14:17
Blessings! Then how come in all of the examples I gave, they all spoke in tongues?
I do not know.
In nowhere it is written that all will speak tongues when receiving the Holy Spirit, believing that is presumption at best.
What I know is:
Not all who are baptized with the Holy Spirit will manifest, speak, or desire tongues or a prayer language, etc.
And the Lord confirmed it to me, as I already told you.
If you sincerely want to know the truth about it, then ask Him a confirmation and He will give to you.
But if you do not want...
“But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth.” - James 3:14
“since you seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, who is not weak toward you, but mighty in you.” - 2 Corinthians 13:3
Blessings!
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 10:52:13 GMT -5
Then how come in all of the examples I gave, they all spoke in tongues?
If you sincerely want to know the truth about it, then ask Him a confirmation and He will give to you.
Okay. I desire a confirmation as to whether or not every Holy Ghost Baptized person can speak in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance. I am not concerned with confirming personal experiences. You accused me of basing my beliefs on personal experiences, and that is what you are doing.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Jan 22, 2020 10:56:58 GMT -5
If you sincerely want to know the truth about it, then ask Him a confirmation and He will give to you.
...You accused me of basing my beliefs on personal experiences, and that is what you are doing.
No, I showed you Scriptures (read previous posts).
But you did not understand them.
If you sincerely want to know the truth about it, then ask Him a confirmation and He will give to you.
Okay. I desire a confirmation as to whether or not every Holy Ghost Baptized person can speak in tongues...
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” - Matthew 7:7
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Post by John on Jan 22, 2020 11:03:02 GMT -5
...You accused me of basing my beliefs on personal experiences, and that is what you are doing.
No, I showed you Scriptures (read previous posts).
But you did not understand them.
Okay. I desire a confirmation as to whether or not every Holy Ghost Baptized person can speak in tongues...
“Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.” - Matthew 7:7
I gave you scriptures that you ignored, and told me God confirmed to you that you were Spirit baptized without speaking in tongues, personal experience. Anyway, I will seek the confirmation.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 13:19:26 GMT -5
There is a lot of misunderstanding about the baptism of the Holy Ghost and speaking in tongues. I want to try to address this from the Bible and from my understanding as a Pentecostal Pastor. I was Pastor of a Pentecostal Holiness Church, and am very familiar with what the Bible teaches and what Pentecostals and charismatic churches teach. These two groups are not exactly the same, as Apostolic churches also differ in certain areas. I am not concerned with explaining the differences so much as just showing what the Bible has to say. Let's begin with the words of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: Of sin, because they believe not on me; Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. A little while, and ye shall not see me: and again, a little while, and ye shall see me because I go to the Father. John 16:7-16
Jesus considered the Baptism of the Holy Ghost of great importance. It was not some after thought or something that was of little value compared to everything else.
And being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel? And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Acts 1:4-8
Once again, Jesus places great emphasis on the Baptism in the Holy Ghost. Before I continue, every born again Christian has a measure of the Spirit, or they wouldn't belong to Christ, but not every Christian has received the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Let's move on.
AND when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance. Acts 2:1-4
Before we continue, notice a couple of things. First of all, they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues. It was not just some of them that spoke in tongues, but all of them. This event occurred while they were in the upper room, and they all spoke the same language, so they didn't need to speak in other tongues in the upper room to be understood. As a matter of fact, they wouldn't understand other tongues. If this was only for some and only so people of other languages could understand, why would they need to all speak with other tongues while in the upper room?
Apparently, they leave the upper room and go out into the streets, and are still speaking in tongues. As a result, people heard them speaking in different languages. At the time, there were people gathered there from "every nation under heaven" and they heard these men speak "in our own tongue, wherein we were born." They were speaking in real languages, but not ones they had ever learned. The Spirit was speaking through them. What were they speaking? "The wonderful works of God." I am not convinced they were preaching a sermon or anything close to that. They were likely praising God in words they didn't understand, but the people gathered there did. Speaking in tongues was an initial evidence they had received the Holy Spirit, and they were not the only people to experience this.
In Acts Chapter 10, Peter went to the house of a gentile named Cornelius to preach the gospel to him and his family. Notice what it says happened after they believed and got saved. Verses 44-48
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Notice that the Holy Ghost fell on all of them which heard the word, not some of them. The Apostles recognized they had been filled because of the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Once again, this is not the final example we have that speaking in tongues is the initial evidence. We are given a third example. In Acts chapter 19, the Apostles encountered people that believed because of John the Baptist and had received water baptism, but not the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. Notice what it says in verse 2-6
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, unto John's baptism. Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them; the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
It wasn't just a few that spoke in tongues, but all of them as an initial evidence. I would also point out that Simon the sorcerer saw this taking place, and desired the ability to lay hands on people to where they would receive the Holy Ghost. There had to be some kind of evidence people were receiving or he wouldn't try to purchase this ability with money. It is separate from the salvation experience. It is also different from the gift of the Spirit of speaking in tongues. The Holy Ghost himself is a gift from God, but the Holy spirit will then give additional gifts to Christians to use for God's purposes. One is called the gift of tongues and there is also the gift of interpretation of tongues. The Bible speaks of that in Corinthians, and gives certain guidelines for using these gifts so people won't do things that are disruptive and out of order. If a person speaks in tongues, to be in order, there must be an interpretation given. The question came up about all the people speaking in tongues that don't interpret. In Pentecostal churches, the people do not sit quietly while one person prays a prayer for all, but everyone prays in their own words at the same time, and sometimes that is in tongues. These prayers are personal and don't require an interpretation, and are not out of order or disruptive. There is no reason to sit around trying to judge if they are praying in a real language. That is between them and God. We have reason to judge doctrine, not individual's prayer language.
I want to address something else. There are tongues of angels, as Paul mentions them. In 1 Corinthians 13:1, it says, "THOUGH I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal." Paul says in chapter 14:2 "For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries." This is the prayer language we receive when we are baptized in the Holy Ghost. That is different from the gift of tongues. In 1 Corinthians 14:3,4, Paul says "But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church." They are two different things. Paul did not make light of prayer tongues. In chapter 14:18,19 he says, "I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue." Jesus didn't make light of tongues and neither did Paul. Paul is speaking of doing things in an orderly manner. That is all.
As far as being slain in the Spirit goes, I have experienced this many times and have prayed for at least one person that was slain in the Spirit. If you have never experienced it, you wouldn't understand. This is nothing more than going into a trance like state for a time while the Spirit of God ministers to you. Trances are in the Bible. Peter went into a trance and saw a vision that led to him going to preach to Cornelius and his household.
Are there things taking place in the church world that are not from God? Of course there is. I am aware of the church where someone was wearing a dog collar and chain and saying that "where he is I will follow." That was nothing more than flesh. It was a type of word picture. An example like that hardly compares with someone being under the power of God so strong they fall into a trance. I have heard of people rolling on the floor, which led to the name, "holy rollers," but I have never seen or experienced this. I have heard of many different things taking place in charismatic and Pentecostal churches that are questionable, but it is my position that every person that receives the baptism in the Holy Spirit will speak in tongues when they are initially filled, and there are numerous examples of this in Acts as I have already shown. I pray in tongues on a regular basis. It is really nobody's place to judge whether it is real or not. I am very careful about judging any potential manifestation of the Spirit. I might question some things within myself, but it has to be completely unbiblical for me to openly attack it.
I am sure this will lead to questions, or I expect it will. Feel free. I will do my best to answer them, but I think I have pretty well made my position clear as to what I believe.
Respectfully brother, but those three scriptures do not prove at all that tongues is necessarily given to every individual when they receive the Holy Spirit. Bible says the spirit blows where it willeth and gives gifts according as He wills. Even if we were to allow that everyone in one or two of those instances did all speak in tongues on those occasions still wouldn't prove that He willeth to do that on every occasion thereafter. It would only be what would be considered circumstantial evidence......but not proof. The Pentecostal understanding on this just does not agree with 1 Corinthians 12 and 14 which actually expounds on all the spiritual gifts....and of course if we have an understanding that contradicts any other scriptures then we have a problem. (It's disingenuous as well as confusing to call one type of tongues a gift and another type of tongues not a gift. God is not the author of confusion. Scripture lays out how all the gifts can have different administrations/operations of the same gift. And it's because the Holy Spirit is not straitened, God can't be put in a box, He just moves and does all manner of things in all manner of ways as He willeth....His wisdom is manifold as expressed in manifold gifts with manifold operations and manifold administrations.) Why I consider this to be an important topic is because a wrong understanding of this can bring much confusion and serious upset and worry to those who receive the Holy Spirit without speaking in tongues, and as well it causes people to be fleshly in their "efforts" to speak in tongues out of fear of not receiving the Holy Spirit, and that is the very kind of thing that can open a door to deceiving spirits. Wisdom is proved right by her children...in other words the proof is in the pudding. We have all met people who have testimonies of having been baptized in the Holy Spirit and received other spiritual gifts but just not tongues....so if it's evidence you want, that is evidence right there. But those who are invested in a particular doctrine and determined to hold to it are going to continue dong mental acrobatics to try and explain that evidence as well as scripture away. I pray the Lord to open the eyes of our understanding.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 22, 2020 13:56:14 GMT -5
I have to agree with John on this. Every single one of them spoke in tongues, and it is for our edification. Why would God choose not to pray through some for their own needs? I was also thinking about a question from a visitor. Why would someone not want to speak in tongues? If it is a gift, we are told to cover the gifts earnestly. To not want the gifts is to show fear or something, because it makes no sense.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 14:18:54 GMT -5
I have to agree with John on this. Every single one of them spoke in tongues, and it is for our edification. Why would God choose not to pray through some for their own needs? I was also thinking about a question from a visitor. Why would someone not want to speak in tongues? If it is a gift, we are told to cover the gifts earnestly. To not want the gifts is to show fear or something, because it makes no sense. No actually brother, it says to covet the best gifts and covet to prophesy. Paul went to some lengths to show why speaking in tongues (w/o an interpreter) is not one of the greater gifts. Who can say why some have a desire for one thing and others have a desire for something else? God is the one who gives us the desires of our heart....it means that sometimes we desire a thing because He wants it, and we might not desire a thing because it is not His will. When it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me it means we desire what He wants. There is just far too much presumptuous "guessing" going on around here regarding the presumed lack of faith or fear on the part of others. Just because one person desired a thing doesn't mean there is something wrong if another person doesn't happen to have a particular desire for the same thing. We are not the measure of God's will for another person. One body, many parts....this is the wisdom of God....and His wisdom is manifold....we are not all the same in the kingdom.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 22, 2020 14:24:19 GMT -5
I have to agree with John on this. Every single one of them spoke in tongues, and it is for our edification. Why would God choose not to pray through some for their own needs? I was also thinking about a question from a visitor. Why would someone not want to speak in tongues? If it is a gift, we are told to cover the gifts earnestly. To not want the gifts is to show fear or something, because it makes no sense. No actually brother, it says to covet the best gifts and covet to prophesy. Paul went to some lengths to show why speaking in tongues (w/o an interpreter) is not one of the greater gifts. Who can say why some have a desire for one thing and others have a desire for something else? God is the one who gives us the desires of our heart....it means that sometimes we desire a thing because He wants it, and we might not desire a thing because it is not His will. When it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me it means we desire what He wants. There is just far too much presumptuous "guessing" going on around here regarding the presumed lack of faith or fear on the part of others. Just because one person desired a thing doesn't mean there is something wrong if another person doesn't happen to have a particular desire for the same thing. We are not the measure of God's will for another person. One body, many parts....this is the wisdom of God....and His wisdom is manifold....we are not all the same in the kingdom. Great gift or small, if it comes from God, it makes no sense not to want it. Take any gift of the Spirit. There is not one I can imagine saying that I don't want. To me, your response in saying tongues is a small gift is disingenuous.
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Post by solid on Jan 22, 2020 14:37:40 GMT -5
No actually brother, it says to covet the best gifts and covet to prophesy. Paul went to some lengths to show why speaking in tongues (w/o an interpreter) is not one of the greater gifts. Who can say why some have a desire for one thing and others have a desire for something else? God is the one who gives us the desires of our heart....it means that sometimes we desire a thing because He wants it, and we might not desire a thing because it is not His will. When it is no longer I who live but Christ who lives in me it means we desire what He wants. There is just far too much presumptuous "guessing" going on around here regarding the presumed lack of faith or fear on the part of others. Just because one person desired a thing doesn't mean there is something wrong if another person doesn't happen to have a particular desire for the same thing. We are not the measure of God's will for another person. One body, many parts....this is the wisdom of God....and His wisdom is manifold....we are not all the same in the kingdom. Great gift or small, if it comes from God, it makes no sense not to want it. Take any gift of the Spirit. There is not one I can imagine saying that I don't want. To me, your response in saying tongues is a small gift is disingenuous. I agree with you about wanting any of the gifts, but whether it is you or Watchful, I don't know that either of you know who is disingenuous? I just think everyone came in convinced they are right.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jan 22, 2020 14:50:37 GMT -5
Great gift or small, if it comes from God, it makes no sense not to want it. Take any gift of the Spirit. There is not one I can imagine saying that I don't want. To me, your response in saying tongues is a small gift is disingenuous. I agree with you about wanting any of the gifts, but whether it is you or Watchful, I don't know that either of you know who is disingenuous? I just think everyone came in convinced they are right. You may be right. Perhaps we are being "presumptuous" in saying that. lol.
Seriously, think about this for a minute. You have the opportunity to have the gift of healings or miracles, and you argue that not everyone has those gifts and you don't want them. I can understand the not everyone having them part of it, but not wanting them? There is just something that doesn't make sense about this. I don't believe that the ability to pray in tongues is one of the gifts. Everyone that has been baptized can do this, but if it was a gift, of course I want it. Why wouldn't you want God praying for you?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2020 15:18:37 GMT -5
Great gift or small, if it comes from God, it makes no sense not to want it. Take any gift of the Spirit. There is not one I can imagine saying that I don't want. To me, your response in saying tongues is a small gift is disingenuous. I agree with you about wanting any of the gifts, but whether it is you or Watchful, I don't know that either of you know who is disingenuous? I just think everyone came in convinced they are right. It's a disingenuous teaching because it is trying to make something fit that just isn't true.
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