Dezi
Junior Member
Posts: 431
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Post by Dezi on Feb 24, 2020 13:55:55 GMT -5
I just want to throw in here that satan worshipers use physical altars to meet with spirits. That is a little extra piece to this puzzle to know. Sometimes we have to figure out why pagans do the things they do. Satan mimics everything God does in Heaven down here on earth. He can't create anything to he tries to distort what God has created.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 14:22:48 GMT -5
Right now I am just checking myself out, concerning the issue of Christ sprinkling his blood on the Heavenly altar, so to see If I am right about it, and if I am off concerning this issue.
But one thing is for sure, there is an Heavenly altar, and an heavenly throne.
And our prayers can reach heaven.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:29:57 GMT -5
And just to mention that the term altar is used in Catholicism because their doctrine is that the bread and wine actually transubstantiates into the actual body and blood of Jesus and that they are therefore at the altar of His sacrifice. Yikes, that should make us think twice....He is not being sacrificed again and again, God forbid...and I even think it's possible that might have something to do with why the Lord was so severe when Moses struck the Rock twice. Jesus said to "GO and make disciples", the idea of an altar in the protestant churches is at least partly because they have replaced "going out" to make disciples to "bringing them in" to make disciples. There is no altar or "altar" calls out in the highways and biways or in the workplace or in people's homes. The altar is just what we call the place we meet with God. It's not a physical place though....hopefully nobody here thinks that the altar from which we eat and meet with God is a physical place. I don't see anything in the new testament that suggests we are to designate physical places or church furnishing (altar table) or buildings (temples?) as altars to meet with God....that is what I call a "religious" construct, not a true spiritual one.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:38:23 GMT -5
LAWLESSNESS..........is not allowing Christ to be Head and not following His leading by the Holy Spirit, that's what lawlessness is brother. Doing things our own way, according to our own ideas, inventing our own methods and formulas and expecting the Lord to confine and conform Himself to our man-made methods and formalities is actually lawlessness and presumption. The mystery of lawlessness.......quenching the Holy Spirit!! Thank the Lord He is so longsuffering and merciful, He has borne with us......but I believe His longsuffering is coming to an end. It is promoting lawlessness, and it is because of these kind of attacks people are falling away from the faith. They leave the church and become self willed. They do what seems right in their own eyes and call that following God. Thank God for his mercy indeed! Interesting that is the exact accusation Rome uses as well, to keep their people from leaving "the church". Religion is all about manipulation, guilt, power and control, in order to take and keep people CAPTIVE. Who has ears to hear let him hear.
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Post by Giller on Feb 24, 2020 14:40:46 GMT -5
I must admit the videos have really got me to think about things.
And I am glad we are having a discussion on it.
Let us seek his face on the issues mentioned, and search our bibles.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:44:28 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
Now about altar calls, are we using the word altar in a way that God would approve of. I really do not care about what I think, or what anyone thinks, I really want to see the way God sees things. And I think in this area, we sometimes can be very flippant of how we use the words of God. There seems to be more a focus of not offending someone, rather than seeking the meaning God put to it. Now God is very patient with us, and I thank God he is, and he knows our hearts. But how much are we concerned about offending God? Just using his word, putting our approval to it, yet not caring in a big way to how God sees it, or if even it is an offence to him? Let us get to this word altar. Jas 2:21 (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The word altar means this: (Strong's concordance, word altar)
(G2379 θυσιαστήριον thusiastērion thoo-see-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2378; a place of sacrifice, that is, an altar (specifically or generally, literally or figuratively): - altar. Total KJV occurrences: 23)The altar is a place of sacrifice. In essence the cross was the place of Jesus' sacrifice. Now I am 100% for people being called up front for prayer, but often times they make the front of the building the altar, they say come to the altar. What I would say, instead of come to the altar, I would say, just say come up front for prayer, rather than risk offending God, or adding my own meaning to the word altar. So the altar is a place of sacrifice, but how would that apply to us as a church? Remember what the sacrifice was, it was Jesus himself. Now the altar was not Jesus, but the sacrifice sure was. Rev 6:9 (9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Now we can see that there is an heavenly altar, and also the bible mentions somewhere about shaking the horns at the altar, well when we seek God in prayer, we are coming before his heavenly altar. So church wise, we do not come before the altar by going somewhere in a building, whether it be up front, in the back or in the middle of the building, but rather we come before the altar, when we seek him in prayer, whether your are seated in the back, the front, in the middle, or outside. Why make a specific place in a building the altar, when what God wants is for us to come before what truly is the altar, which is in heaven? So does that mean that if I did not come up front, even though I prayed while being in the back, that I did not come before the altar? Some might say this is nit picking, but we have to go by what the word says, why are we more concerned about offending men rather than offending God? Amen....and really in light of that it's sacreligious and blasphemous and maybe even an abomination for believers in the risen Christ to call a mere physical location the altar where we meet with God! Truly wish they would stop doing that.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:47:30 GMT -5
Absolutely we do, just simply when we pray. When we pray we pray to our Father which is in heaven. What is being sacrificed today? I always saw us as praying at Gods throne, not an altar. WE are living sacrifices today, on the altar (not a physical one).
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 24, 2020 14:49:51 GMT -5
Now about altar calls, are we using the word altar in a way that God would approve of. I really do not care about what I think, or what anyone thinks, I really want to see the way God sees things. And I think in this area, we sometimes can be very flippant of how we use the words of God. There seems to be more a focus of not offending someone, rather than seeking the meaning God put to it. Now God is very patient with us, and I thank God he is, and he knows our hearts. But how much are we concerned about offending God? Just using his word, putting our approval to it, yet not caring in a big way to how God sees it, or if even it is an offence to him? Let us get to this word altar. Jas 2:21 (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The word altar means this: (Strong's concordance, word altar)
(G2379 θυσιαστήριον thusiastērion thoo-see-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2378; a place of sacrifice, that is, an altar (specifically or generally, literally or figuratively): - altar. Total KJV occurrences: 23)The altar is a place of sacrifice. In essence the cross was the place of Jesus' sacrifice. Now I am 100% for people being called up front for prayer, but often times they make the front of the building the altar, they say come to the altar. What I would say, instead of come to the altar, I would say, just say come up front for prayer, rather than risk offending God, or adding my own meaning to the word altar. So the altar is a place of sacrifice, but how would that apply to us as a church? Remember what the sacrifice was, it was Jesus himself. Now the altar was not Jesus, but the sacrifice sure was. Rev 6:9 (9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Now we can see that there is an heavenly altar, and also the bible mentions somewhere about shaking the horns at the altar, well when we seek God in prayer, we are coming before his heavenly altar. So church wise, we do not come before the altar by going somewhere in a building, whether it be up front, in the back or in the middle of the building, but rather we come before the altar, when we seek him in prayer, whether your are seated in the back, the front, in the middle, or outside. Why make a specific place in a building the altar, when what God wants is for us to come before what truly is the altar, which is in heaven? So does that mean that if I did not come up front, even though I prayed while being in the back, that I did not come before the altar? Some might say this is nit picking, but we have to go by what the word says, why are we more concerned about offending men rather than offending God? Amen....and really in light of that it's sacreligious and blasphemous and maybe even an abomination for believers in the risen Christ to call a mere physical location the altar where we meet with God! Truly wish they would stop doing that. I can accept that perhaps we shouldn't call it an altar, but calling it sac-religious and blasphemous is ABSURD! It is absolute NONSENSE!!!
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2020 14:51:21 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
Now about altar calls, are we using the word altar in a way that God would approve of. I really do not care about what I think, or what anyone thinks, I really want to see the way God sees things. And I think in this area, we sometimes can be very flippant of how we use the words of God. There seems to be more a focus of not offending someone, rather than seeking the meaning God put to it. Now God is very patient with us, and I thank God he is, and he knows our hearts. But how much are we concerned about offending God? Just using his word, putting our approval to it, yet not caring in a big way to how God sees it, or if even it is an offence to him? Let us get to this word altar. Jas 2:21 (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The word altar means this: (Strong's concordance, word altar)
(G2379 θυσιαστήριον thusiastērion thoo-see-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2378; a place of sacrifice, that is, an altar (specifically or generally, literally or figuratively): - altar. Total KJV occurrences: 23)The altar is a place of sacrifice. In essence the cross was the place of Jesus' sacrifice. Now I am 100% for people being called up front for prayer, but often times they make the front of the building the altar, they say come to the altar. What I would say, instead of come to the altar, I would say, just say come up front for prayer, rather than risk offending God, or adding my own meaning to the word altar. So the altar is a place of sacrifice, but how would that apply to us as a church? Remember what the sacrifice was, it was Jesus himself. Now the altar was not Jesus, but the sacrifice sure was. Rev 6:9 (9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Now we can see that there is an heavenly altar, and also the bible mentions somewhere about shaking the horns at the altar, well when we seek God in prayer, we are coming before his heavenly altar. So church wise, we do not come before the altar by going somewhere in a building, whether it be up front, in the back or in the middle of the building, but rather we come before the altar, when we seek him in prayer, whether your are seated in the back, the front, in the middle, or outside. Why make a specific place in a building the altar, when what God wants is for us to come before what truly is the altar, which is in heaven? So does that mean that if I did not come up front, even though I prayed while being in the back, that I did not come before the altar? Some might say this is nit picking, but we have to go by what the word says, why are we more concerned about offending men rather than offending God? HUGE AMEN! Words matter....power of life and death in the tongue, and out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks...and words set up a mindset that is often enmity with God.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Feb 24, 2020 14:59:50 GMT -5
At most, calling the front of the church where people pray is a poor choice of words based on a misunderstanding. That is at most. I didn't find the videos offensive, but accusing churches of doing something sac-religious and blasphemous because they have an altar is offensive and FALSE! Yes, words matter, and those words are highly inappropriate.
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Post by John on Feb 24, 2020 18:04:33 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
You say some thought provoking things here. I see things such as apostles, pastors and son on, as offices of the church as well. Rom 11:13 (13) For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: But concerning the videos, do you think that they are against the titles of apostles, prophets and so on, as being offices of the church? Or do you think they were just referring this upper case/capital, stuff, because some pastors really do exalt themselves above everyone else, that spirit is truly in what we call the church? Some may put the title of Pastors in capitals, because they think they are better than others? Now I do not say that you do so for that reason John, no not at all, but some may. And it is true bible wise in what they say that when it mentions say Jesus is this or that, it often times is in capital letters, and when it mentions things as men being pastors and so on, it is usually in non capital letters, now I do not know how much of an issue that in and of itself would be, but I think the greater issue is with how one takes these positions. I do know that some think that pastors, teachers and so on, are not offices of the church, and they say it is just a gift, yet Paul said that he magnifies his office. I know that some are against church authority, which that is not good, but at the same time, some exalt these offices to a place they were never meant to go, and being a pastor , teacher and so on, does not make one better than the other, they are just fellow servants. I am not sure how the person that made the video meant it. He did say that the writers of the New Testament didn't mention titles, and they clearly did. It is true that in some cases, people that get a title of any kind, get the big head. That is one of the problems you can have with a novice. They can get prideful real easy, and I think it is a big reason why you don't want to make someone like that a Deacon or Bishop. I just see it as a calling, but it is also an office when you fulfil the role God gave you. That is no reason to get lifted up in pride. We all are supposed to work together, and the only reason we have the position we do is because the Lord gave it to us. Also do not forget, to whom much is given, much will be required.
I do acknowledge the office titles, and have used large letters, but only to show that this person has this calling and that person has that calling. I want everyone to work together and do whatever God gave them to do. Some offices do come with more authority. Even in the 5 fold ministry gifts, Apostle was the highest calling, above Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist and Teacher, but that doesn't make the person with that calling a better person. It is just a very responsible office. It is the highest calling among the ministry gifts. I am not threatened by that, because Pastor is lower than Apostle in that way. Just remember that God raises up and God pulls down at His will. I understand that today. As a younger person in the Lord, I would have much more easily gotten the big head over a title, but I do not feel that way today. Still, if the devil can give someone the big head, he will. Pride is a serious sin, and Satan takes down a lot of people with that sin. As far as the videos go, I am not sure if they are coming entirely against the idea that these are actual offices.
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Post by John on Feb 24, 2020 18:19:48 GMT -5
I watched the videos, and was not offended by them, but my church has a building they call the church, as well as an altar, where they have altar calls and lead people in a sinner's prayer. I see nothing wrong with it, and I don't see this as meaning they copied the RCC in following man-made traditions. But I saw nothing in the videos worth getting upset over. Those with house churches have had to deal with attacks from those in traditional buildings, and that is not right. House churches never get any respect. They are constantly attacked by those who are members of traditional churches, as well as those church leaders who feel threatened by the house church movement. Now, it appears that there is a backlash, and those who have come out of the traditional churches are fighting back. To me, it is not about what kind of place you meet, but whether or not your church is in the truth. There is room enough for house churches and those who own a building.
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Post by John on Feb 24, 2020 18:26:43 GMT -5
I just got through watching the videos, and I have mixed feelings about the things they are saying. There is no question that the actual church is the congregation of people. At the same time, I think they are kind of being nit picky when they make such a big deal about calling the place where the church meets a church. The reason they do this is because it lets the people in the community know that this building is where the congregation meets at the appointed time. I really see no problem with this.
Altars. I have never read anywhere in scripture that Jesus himself is an altar. He is our great High Priest, but the High Priest is not the altar, so I do not get how that is Biblical. Having people come to an altar and to pray a prayer is done to make a public confession. That is completely Biblical. If it is just a matter of the name of the place where the people kneel being called an altar, again, to me this is being nit picky.
The scriptures that tell people not to be a respecter of persons are dealing with not treating someone as a lesser person because they are poor or from a different race or something like that. These scriptures are not dealing with positions, and calling one man Apostle, Prophet, Pastor, Evangelist or Teacher, or anything else with a capital letter in front of the title of their position. I capitalize these titles all the time, as the titles are Biblical. I do that for other offices too, like Bishop, Deacon, Elder, or even things like Helps, Usher, anything. It has nothing to do with saying one man is better than another. It is just identifying their calling or the office they hold. I do not see anything wrong with that either. Notice what the Apostle Paul wrote in Romans 13:1-7
LET every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil. Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake. For this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing. Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
If I take things the way the man lays it out in the videos, I am being a respetor of persons in doing this.
Next, there is the issue of traditions. There are traditions of men, that sometimes are in opposition to scripture, and Jesus did come against people using traditions to disobey God's ordinances, but not all traditions are bad and evil, and the Bible actually uplifts some traditions.
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle. 2 Thessalonians 2:15
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; 2 Thessalonians 3:6-7
We have had a long discussion in the past about tithes. Are New Testament Christians supposed to tithe to the church? We know that they paid tithes in the Old Testament. I do not know of any scripture that says we must or that the storehouse has become the local church. Most congregations that teach this assume that the church took the place of the Temple, and that the principal of tithing still applies. That is one of those things that I would say a man or woman needs to follow their conscience. If you feel like God would have you tithe, do it. If not, don't. I have no issue with ministers getting full time salaries. That is completely Biblical, and tithes do help pay salaries. Notice what the Apostle Paul says in 1 Corinthians 9:7-14
Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should pow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap of your carnal things? If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ. Do ye not know that they which minister about the holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.
It is because of passages like this that many take the teachings about tithing to the temple, and say it now applies to the local church. I can see legitimate issues that the videos address. You can have a real church in someone's home, if that is where a congregation meets. You could have a real church meet in the park, at an harbor, a rented storefront, or even a message board. Still, if a church in a city owns a building where they meet, I am not sure what we should call the building other than a church. I do not see the harm in placing the name of the congregation that meets at this building on the building itself.
solid , I am not sure what it is about the videos that you found so offensive? If you do not see what is being said as correct, nobody says you have to accept it. There are some things that are legitimate, like the idea that repeating a prayer is guaranteed to save you eternally. If you pray a prayer asking Jesus to forgive your sins and come into your heart to save you and be your Lord and Savior, and you mean it, I believe He will do so, but many go to these altar calls and never really get saved. They just go through the motions. There is a lot to think about here, and more scriptures we can include that would add to this discussion. I think this is an important topic, and I thank Dezi for giving us these videos to look at, as they certainly have got me thinking about what is Biblical and what is not in the modern church.
Now about altar calls, are we using the word altar in a way that God would approve of. I really do not care about what I think, or what anyone thinks, I really want to see the way God sees things. And I think in this area, we sometimes can be very flippant of how we use the words of God. There seems to be more a focus of not offending someone, rather than seeking the meaning God put to it. Now God is very patient with us, and I thank God he is, and he knows our hearts. But how much are we concerned about offending God? Just using his word, putting our approval to it, yet not caring in a big way to how God sees it, or if even it is an offence to him? Let us get to this word altar. Jas 2:21 (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? The word altar means this: (Strong's concordance, word altar)
(G2379 θυσιαστήριον thusiastērion thoo-see-as-tay'-ree-on
From a derivative of G2378; a place of sacrifice, that is, an altar (specifically or generally, literally or figuratively): - altar. Total KJV occurrences: 23)The altar is a place of sacrifice. In essence the cross was the place of Jesus' sacrifice. Now I am 100% for people being called up front for prayer, but often times they make the front of the building the altar, they say come to the altar. What I would say, instead of come to the altar, I would say, just say come up front for prayer, rather than risk offending God, or adding my own meaning to the word altar. So the altar is a place of sacrifice, but how would that apply to us as a church? Remember what the sacrifice was, it was Jesus himself. Now the altar was not Jesus, but the sacrifice sure was. Rev 6:9 (9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Now we can see that there is an heavenly altar, and also the bible mentions somewhere about shaking the horns at the altar, well when we seek God in prayer, we are coming before his heavenly altar. So church wise, we do not come before the altar by going somewhere in a building, whether it be up front, in the back or in the middle of the building, but rather we come before the altar, when we seek him in prayer, whether your are seated in the back, the front, in the middle, or outside. Why make a specific place in a building the altar, when what God wants is for us to come before what truly is the altar, which is in heaven? So does that mean that if I did not come up front, even though I prayed while being in the back, that I did not come before the altar? Some might say this is nit picking, but we have to go by what the word says, why are we more concerned about offending men rather than offending God? You could say to just come to the front to pray, and there would be nothing wrong with that. At the same time, I can defend the use of the word altar in an altar call. There is a sacrifice taking place. The old man or woman is being put to death, and they are coming forward to be born again. They are dying to self. Much of the time, that is what people are doing when they come to an altar is crucifying the flesh in one form or another. People do often come forward for prayer for other things as well, like healing, but a lot of the time, there is an actual sacrifice taking place.
When we think of sacrifice, we usually do think of something being put to death, but we sometimes speak of giving a sacrifice of praise to God. That is especially true when we are not feeling well, in a dry spell spiritually. There are things we say we lay on the altar, like habits. I think that is the reason why they call it an altar, and even using your own Dictionary definition, I think it would allow for it. I did say that to me this was being nit picky, and I still think it is, in light of how I see it being an altar.
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Post by John on Feb 24, 2020 18:28:15 GMT -5
The altar is just what we call the place we meet with God. That is how I look at it. Your bed or sofa or a bench could potentially be your altar, if that is where you kneel in prayer. In the church, you can make your pew your altar. I think that is true, when you are laying something down before the Lord, like a habit or a sin or any kind, or dying to the old man to be born again. I would agree.
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Post by John on Feb 24, 2020 18:29:21 GMT -5
The altar today is the heavenly altar, and when we pray we come before this altar. In fact he sprinkled his blood before the heavenly altar. The middle wall of partition has been broken down, and now we can enter directly into the Holy of Holies.
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