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Post by John on Jun 21, 2020 12:07:39 GMT -5
Here is one of those questions I feel the need to ask because I cannot honestly say I ever remember reading anyplace in scripture where it says that. I know that God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son to save it, but what of those who reject God's Son? Is His love unconditional for them? Was God's love unconditional for Judas Iscariot? Would God send someone He loves unconditionally to hell? I am not saying He would not. It could be a matter of His justice demanding it, so I am not saying one way or the other, but only asking questions. What do you think and why? Do you know of any scripture that says God's love is unconditional, and do you believe God's love is unconditional?
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Post by frienduff on Jun 21, 2020 16:56:58 GMT -5
Here is one of those questions I feel the need to ask because I cannot honestly say I ever remember reading anyplace in scripture where it says that. I know that God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son to save it, but what of those who reject God's Son? Is His love unconditional for them? Was God's love unconditional for Judas Iscariot? Would God send someone He loves unconditionally to hell? I am not saying He would not. It could be a matter of His justice demanding it, so I am not saying one way or the other, but only asking questions. What do you think and why? Do you know of any scripture that says God's love is unconditional, and do you believe God's love is unconditional? WE already SEE A CONDITION if we just read the whole thing , THAT ALL WHO DO BELEIVE WOULD BE SAVED . SO , YEAH there is A CONDITION ALL RIGHT . God is love , but HIS LOVE wont compromise HIS TRUTH . men are evil , they are vile and wicked from their youth up and cannot be justified or righteous on their own . THUS HIS LOVE SENT THE SON , and CONDTION , that ALL WHO DO BELEIVE WOULD BE SAVED . If one thinks HIS love is unconditional . THEN REMEMBER what JESUS SAID . I PRAY for them , NOT FOR THE WORLD , but for those ye have given ME and ALSO for those who will come to BELEIVE ON ME through thier word . DENY JESUS , and BE DENIED . TROD HIM under foot , and YE shall be trod under foot . WHILE GOD desires not the death of the wicked , BELEIVE ME they will perish , IF THEY REJECT CHRIST JESUS . And that includes HIS sayings . FOR JESUS cannot be loved and His sayigns hated . THAT MEANS we HATE JESUS . AND JESUS did not speak of His own , HE SPOKE what the FATHER HIMSELF commanded . SO reject JESUS and HIS sayings , YOU JUST REJECTED GOD . its that black and white .
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Jun 21, 2020 17:21:25 GMT -5
Here is one of those questions I feel the need to ask because I cannot honestly say I ever remember reading anyplace in scripture where it says that. I know that God so loved the world that He sent his only begotten Son to save it, but what of those who reject God's Son? Is His love unconditional for them? Was God's love unconditional for Judas Iscariot? Would God send someone He loves unconditionally to hell? I am not saying He would not. It could be a matter of His justice demanding it, so I am not saying one way or the other, but only asking questions. What do you think and why? Do you know of any scripture that says God's love is unconditional, and do you believe God's love is unconditional? The answer is no. The condition is that you as a free agent human being, do not reject his gift of love and His Holy Presence.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Jun 21, 2020 22:54:56 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually.
my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms.
we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son.
speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct.
Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool.
in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him.
while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her.
while we were yet sinners, it says.
I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation.
Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence.
what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death.
just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also.
I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 22, 2020 7:25:41 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually. my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms. we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son. speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct. Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool. in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him. while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her. while we were yet sinners, it says. I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation. Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence. what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death. just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also. I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again. This sounds correct my friend . For i desire NOT the death of the wicked , but rather they repent . Yes cletus it sounds right . a Better question is just because God so loves the world , does this mean everyone will be saved . And that answer is real simple . NO . For there is no saving , no salvation found outside of Christ . THEY must accept HIM as LORD and SAVOIR . And if its done in Truth , the fruits are evident they are truly His . And that all who do beleive in HIM , MUST continue IN HIM , in the Goodness of GOD or they too will be cast out .
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Post by watchful on Jun 22, 2020 7:36:31 GMT -5
The bible says that God IS love. Lots of scriptures come to mind about His love. He demonstrated His love to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden right AFTER they sinned, by clothing their nakedness. And love covers a multitude of sins. And He lets the rain fall on both the just and unjust alike. The Lord shows mercy to even the vilest of sinners...even Paul who formerly used to mercilessly and cruelly persecute those whose only 'crime' was that they believed in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 13 says while everything else will pass away, love never will, and that love is the greatest attribute of all. We are even told to emulate God and love our enemies:
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
So I consider that it's really a question about who will receive His love as personified in His Son, and love Him in return.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 22, 2020 8:05:33 GMT -5
The bible says that God IS love. Lots of scriptures come to mind about His love. He demonstrated His love to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden right AFTER they sinned, by clothing their nakedness. And love covers a multitude of sins. And He lets the rain fall on both the just and unjust alike. The Lord shows mercy to even the vilest of sinners...even Paul who formerly used to mercilessly and cruelly persecute those whose only 'crime' was that they believed in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 13 says while everything else will pass away, love never will, and that love is the greatest attribute of all. We are even told to emulate God and love our enemies: Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. So I consider that it's really a question about who will receive His love as personified in His Son, and love Him in return. Very true dear sister . And if we truly have the love that comes from God then we would desire the death of none . And if we desire the death of none , then we POINT to JESUS as the only means to attain salvation . Love indeed also corrects . God does chasten those He loves . And we see paul did too . He kept the pattern identical and though the more he did love the less he was loved . Because pauls love came with correction , with a rod as well . with seperation till repentance was made . If we love God , then we love Christ . If we love Christ then we love all that HE did do and say . God is love , but its evident that many who even claim this do not know HIM or love . As i am sure you would agree . My dear sister from the north lands , You are loved .
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777
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Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jun 22, 2020 8:10:51 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually. my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms. we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son. speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct. Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool. in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him. while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her. while we were yet sinners, it says. I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation. Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence. what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death. just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also. I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again. This whole question is interesting, and I'm not sure that I know the correct answer, but there is one thing I noticed in what you said. You seem to be speaking in terms of Christians who stray. It seems like in the OP, it is talking about the whole human race, and a place where people are cast into hell. I also know that people do sometimes come to a place in a relationship where they stop loving one another. It happens in a lot of marriage relationships where one person is wronged. So does God come to a place where he stops loving someone? Is his love unconditional? I'm not sure.
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777
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Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jun 22, 2020 8:14:24 GMT -5
I have been meditating on this open mindedly and objectively here lately. quite a bit actually. my main concern here is do we need to separate out salvation/eternal life from God's love here? how do we define God's love? The Book says while we were yet sinners Christ died for us... The Book says God told Hosea to take a wife of whoredoms. we know repentance is a condition. confess, repent, and be reconciled to God. The Book also tells us of the prodigal son. speaking in terms of Father/child relationship... child acts up, and Father has to correct. Speaking in terms of Husband/wife... a wife goes whoring about, the Husband will not be made to be a fool. in both these analogies we find Father desiring us to return unto Him. while a father is correcting a child, he still loves his child. when a husband is still attempting to work it out with his bride, and even after he still loves her. while we were yet sinners, it says. I speak the truth when i say The Almighty told me He would cast me off forever if i didnt repent at one point. again repentance is the condition. but my question is even if you didnt does God no longer love you? God was surely angry with me and His tone and presence... there was no doubt... but He did still seek reconciliation. Isa 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Isa 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me. Gods promises never fail. I dont think God stops loving you if you turn from Him. I dont think its off and on... and if it were would it really be Love? I think He still loves you, its just sin is not something he allows in His presence. what i believe is that the standard that we are to live... that standard is above each of our own lives. and really it is. If Jesus had sinned just once God would no longer have been Holy... and our salvation would have been an impossibility as The sacrificial Lamb had to be without spot or blemish... according to the law. Holiness is life. Sin is death. just because you get mad at someone for doing wrong you dont stop loving them. they still have to make it right in order to continue on with the relationship. just so happens we are in a relationship with THE KING OF KINGS. if we have this capacity, surely God does also. I encourage anyone who can to expose any error in what i have said to do so. I think its correct, by scripture, and experience from walking with Him. When someone has walked away from God one of the main points to bring them back is to instill in their mind God is not against them and does still love them. once they get over the hurdle of God dont love them anymore, and they repent, then they begin to experience Him in their life again. This sounds correct my friend . For i desire NOT the death of the wicked , but rather they repent . Yes cletus it sounds right . a Better question is just because God so loves the world , does this mean everyone will be saved . And that answer is real simple . NO . For there is no saving , no salvation found outside of Christ . THEY must accept HIM as LORD and SAVOIR . And if its done in Truth , the fruits are evident they are truly His . And that all who do beleive in HIM , MUST continue IN HIM , in the Goodness of GOD or they too will be cast out . Can you say God's love in unconditional if he sends someone into eternal torments? That's a tough question. I know not everyone is saved. He loves the world to the point he sent his son to redeem it, but what of those who say no to him? When he destroys people, is that unconditional love? It is a thought provoking question.
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777
Senior Member
Teacher
Posts: 1,189
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Post by 777 on Jun 22, 2020 8:18:25 GMT -5
The bible says that God IS love. Lots of scriptures come to mind about His love. He demonstrated His love to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden right AFTER they sinned, by clothing their nakedness. And love covers a multitude of sins. And He lets the rain fall on both the just and unjust alike. The Lord shows mercy to even the vilest of sinners...even Paul who formerly used to mercilessly and cruelly persecute those whose only 'crime' was that they believed in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 13 says while everything else will pass away, love never will, and that love is the greatest attribute of all. We are even told to emulate God and love our enemies: Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. So I consider that it's really a question about who will receive His love as personified in His Son, and love Him in return. God is merciful, and what you said is true, but what about at the judgment? Does God show unconditional love to those he casts into hell? In the OP, John mentions that it may be a matter of his justice demanding it, but can you say that it can reach a place where God's love runs out to a rebellious person? I'll probably be thinking about this the rest of the day.
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Post by frienduff on Jun 22, 2020 8:42:37 GMT -5
This sounds correct my friend . For i desire NOT the death of the wicked , but rather they repent . Yes cletus it sounds right . a Better question is just because God so loves the world , does this mean everyone will be saved . And that answer is real simple . NO . For there is no saving , no salvation found outside of Christ . THEY must accept HIM as LORD and SAVOIR . And if its done in Truth , the fruits are evident they are truly His . And that all who do beleive in HIM , MUST continue IN HIM , in the Goodness of GOD or they too will be cast out . Can you say God's love in unconditional if he sends someone into eternal torments? That's a tough question. I know not everyone is saved. He loves the world to the point he sent his son to redeem it, but what of those who say no to him? When he destroys people, is that unconditional love? It is a thought provoking question. Its why i simply say , if we would point to JESUS only then at least some would be saved . The thing about this question is that it can go on and on . But the truth is , if one rejects Christ is enternal damantion . If one accepts Christ its eternal life . But most folks dont like that point blank statment . As you know well , they do not . So instead these other people invent a God , invent some kind of love , and in the end that love wont allow anyone to go to perdition . Yet let us keep it real simple . IF one has CHRIST , its eternal life , may they continue in HIM faithful to the end or be cast out . IF one rejects Christ or continues not in HIM to the end , its the second death . Folks dont like my black and white simplicty . But i have learned to keep it simple . NOW hands up my friend . Let the LORD be praised .
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Post by frienduff on Jun 22, 2020 8:46:49 GMT -5
The bible says that God IS love. Lots of scriptures come to mind about His love. He demonstrated His love to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden right AFTER they sinned, by clothing their nakedness. And love covers a multitude of sins. And He lets the rain fall on both the just and unjust alike. The Lord shows mercy to even the vilest of sinners...even Paul who formerly used to mercilessly and cruelly persecute those whose only 'crime' was that they believed in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 13 says while everything else will pass away, love never will, and that love is the greatest attribute of all. We are even told to emulate God and love our enemies: Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. So I consider that it's really a question about who will receive His love as personified in His Son, and love Him in return. God is merciful, and what you said is true, but what about at the judgment? Does God show unconditional love to those he casts into hell? In the OP, John mentions that it may be a matter of his justice demanding it, but can you say that it can reach a place where God's love runs out to a rebellious person? I'll probably be thinking about this the rest of the day. Go read jeremiah . IT does . Pray not for this people . pray not to their good . I will not hear them even when they cry out . Jeremiah and Ezzekial both made intercession unto GOD for the people . One of them gets told , EVEN IF MOSES STOOD UP before ME for this people , I WOULD NOT HEAR HIM . YES . GOD gets to a point where ITS WRATH TIME . He does . And we are fast approaching that time . That all inclusive social unity golden bull , IS A WICKED VILE IDOL . Trampling JESUS UNDER FOOT as having to be confessed . AND i fear big time for those doing it . cause when the DOOR SHUTS , they will cry , BUT HE WILL NOT HEAR THEM . Nor will they repent either . ITS COMING and the golden unity bull , can save none from it . JESUS CAN . SO THEY BETTER GET ON the JESUS ONLY SAVES TRAIN , LIGHTING FAST TOO .
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Post by watchful on Jun 22, 2020 12:09:57 GMT -5
The bible says that God IS love. Lots of scriptures come to mind about His love. He demonstrated His love to Adam and Eve way back in the Garden right AFTER they sinned, by clothing their nakedness. And love covers a multitude of sins. And He lets the rain fall on both the just and unjust alike. The Lord shows mercy to even the vilest of sinners...even Paul who formerly used to mercilessly and cruelly persecute those whose only 'crime' was that they believed in Jesus. 1 Corinthians 13 says while everything else will pass away, love never will, and that love is the greatest attribute of all. We are even told to emulate God and love our enemies: Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. So I consider that it's really a question about who will receive His love as personified in His Son, and love Him in return. God is merciful, and what you said is true, but what about at the judgment? Does God show unconditional love to those he casts into hell? In the OP, John mentions that it may be a matter of his justice demanding it, but can you say that it can reach a place where God's love runs out to a rebellious person? I'll probably be thinking about this the rest of the day. Scripture does show that God’s love is not earned by man or based on one’s just desserts, but that love is His fundamental nature and character. I came to understand that the question of God’s love is kind of a separate question from the question of whether someone is saved from hell, or has His favour, or is pleasing Him or not, or whether He is 'angry' with them or not. That He is angry, displeased or disposed to punish doesn't mean He doesn't also love, as Cletus was saying. If we look at an earthly example, even earthly kings have been known to reluctantly war against or execute those they love when betrayed and rebelled against by them. Doesn’t mean they didn’t love, it just became a necessary thing to do brought on by the other. That some will perish likewise doesn’t mean the Lord doesn’t love them. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked.
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777
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Post by 777 on Jun 22, 2020 12:45:55 GMT -5
God is merciful, and what you said is true, but what about at the judgment? Does God show unconditional love to those he casts into hell? In the OP, John mentions that it may be a matter of his justice demanding it, but can you say that it can reach a place where God's love runs out to a rebellious person? I'll probably be thinking about this the rest of the day. Scripture does show that God’s love is not earned by man or based on one’s just desserts, but that love is His fundamental nature and character. I came to understand that the question of God’s love is kind of a separate question from the question of whether someone is saved from hell, or has His favour, or is pleasing Him or not, or whether He is 'angry' with them or not. That He is angry, displeased or disposed to punish doesn't mean He doesn't also love, as Cletus was saying. If we look at an earthly example, even earthly kings have been known to reluctantly war against or execute those they love when betrayed and rebelled against by them. Doesn’t mean they didn’t love, it just became a necessary thing to do brought on by the other. That some will perish likewise doesn’t mean the Lord doesn’t love them. He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. I think that's the question that is being asked. Does God love those he casts into hell? Does God love Judas Iscariot, Lucifer and the fallen angels, the anti-Christ and his followers? Is it that he no longer loves them, or that his justice demands they be punished? This brings up another question. If he loves those he casts into the lake of fire, does God's unconditional love actually protect people like they seem to think it does? You have people who will talk about God's unconditional love and say that he would never cast anyone away, but if God actually loves all the rebellious and fallen ones he casts into hell, that kind of makes that argument null and void.
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Post by solid on Jun 22, 2020 12:57:22 GMT -5
I think it is about God's holiness. I believe he loves everyone, but that doesn't stop him from casting sinners away.
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