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Post by Giller on Dec 16, 2018 16:19:03 GMT -5
I was thinking how about we get back to the message of this thread, about the miracles and stuff, and signs following etc.
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Post by John on Dec 16, 2018 16:28:31 GMT -5
Since my question was ignored by the geniuses at you-know-where I figured I might have better luck asking about it here... And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues — Mark 16:17
Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. If this man were not of God, he could do nothing. — John 9:31-33
Therefore said some of the Pharisees, This man is not of God, because he keepeth not the sabbath day. Others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such miracles? And there was a division among them. — John 9:16
Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. — John 14:10-12
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God. — 1 Corinthians 2:4-5
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Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. — Matthew 7:22-23
———— How can these things be? I don’t have the “right answer” waiting in my back pocket. I’m honestly curious to see what you all think. Good suggestion Giller. The OP has become a distant memory.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 16, 2018 16:49:57 GMT -5
I am marinating on a thought as to whether the iniquity/lawlessness they practiced was directly related to their ministry efforts.
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Post by frienduff on Dec 16, 2018 18:09:10 GMT -5
The primary thing that I see leading to error here is this notion that a person sees the God of the Bible as primarily a God of love mercy, so if you show him acting in away that is not consistent with that image they have of God, it is rejected, even if it can be shown to be true using scripture. I just got through discussing something with people at another message board, and their primary basis for attacking what I said was based on a character of God argument. It was feeling and emotion based. The Bible means what it says, and it is pretty much black and white.
I realize Frienduff did ask some of us to assist him, but he did that without knowing what we would say. It wasn't coordinated. I just understand there is no salvation other than through faith in Christ, and no second chances, unless God allows you to have a near death experience or a vision of hell. Once you are dead and buried, all hope is gone. There is nothing in the Bible that says a nice follower of Buddha may be saved at the great white throne judgment.
There is absolutely nothing in the bible that says a nice follower of budda or any other may be saved . Their is nothing that indicates that the kindest person in the world may be saved . HERE is what IS SAID . and it concerned both the jews and gentile . THEIR IS NONE that does good , their is NONE that is good , THEY have all GONE out of the way . For their is no man that sins not . SO WHAT DOES THAT MEAN . BETTER BELIEVE IN JESUS who came to SAVE THE WORLD . GOD will get the glory . and if a man denies HIS GLORY , WHICH IS CHRIST the GLORY OF GOD , yep you guesed it , LAKE OF FIRE . YET if the worst man of the entire world repents and believes , even at the last minute of his life . HE IS SAVED . GOD will get the GLORY and not man . AND all found not written in the book of life were cast into the LAKE OF FIRE . IF we aint IN CHRIST , the only ONE WHO COULD even open the book of the judgements , that even JOHN himself wept . TILL a sound was made , a glorious shouting WORHTY IS THE LAMB to open the book , the lamb slain , the lamb who has redeemed us , from all nations . JESUS IS , and I do repeat , IS THE ONLY WAY FOR salvation ,the only way FOR ETERNAL LIFE , the only way into the marvelous Kingom . THE ONLY DOOR , the ONLY WAY , the TRUTH THE LIFE . if a man rejects him , PREPARE TO HEAR on the day of judgment , TO THE LAKE OF FIRE . We got to get busy preaching JESUS WHO I KNOW SAVES and flee any kind of mindset that even remotely gives false hope to any . And just because the world and churches have done exactly WHAT GOD SAID WOULD OCCUR NEAR the end , IT AINT TIME to start wanting to believe some kind of false hope that oh their might just be hope for these who rejected him too . NOPE , and DOUBLE NOPE . JESUS is the only way and if this causes divisions among people WELL THEN IT DOES . JESUS said HE NEVER CAME TO BRING the popes WORLD PEACE or any world peace , but rather divisions . SO MARVEL NOT if this does not become in time and even among the churches and world , AS THE MOST UNTOLERATED THING to even suggest . BUT by , grace , till the last breath , I SHALL OFFER NO FALSE HOPE for any man woman or child . ITS JESUS or their will be NO HOPE . AND AMEN of the AMENS . YALL got a fundie a JESUS ONLY MAN . and make no apologies for it . NOT that yall would want me to . I KNOW We got some lambs here THAT LOVE OUR LORD IN TRUTH . BUT IT IS HIGH TIME to make that point only more and more . JESUS ONLY or their is no hope .
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Post by frienduff on Dec 16, 2018 18:15:21 GMT -5
I am marinating on a thought as to whether the iniquity/lawlessness they practiced was directly related to their ministry efforts. Well I see our sister is busy marinating . WELL I offer up this and may it be marinated with tons of praises . JESUS IS LORD and their is no other name under heaven whereby we or any can be saved . OH let the marinations of praises BEGIN . FOR THEIR IS NO SUCH THING AS PRAISING TOO MUCH OUR LORD WHO DID SAVE US .
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Post by Giller on Dec 17, 2018 0:10:02 GMT -5
The moving of the Spirit, who can be used, and who cannot be used.
That is an interesting thought.
Joh 9:30-33 (30) The man answered and said unto them, Why herein is a marvellous thing, that ye know not from whence he is, and yet he hath opened mine eyes. (31) Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth. (32) Since the world began was it not heard that any man opened the eyes of one that was born blind. (33) If this man were not of God, he could do nothing.
Now first of all we have to remember that it is this man who got healed that said these things.
And I believe that there has to be some type of distinguishing between God’s miracles and Satan’s false miracles.
There is no doubt that this man knew it was God that healed him.
And at one point this man says this: “if this man were not of God, he could do nothing.”
No doubt this is speaking of the miraculous, but in this specific case it is mentioning Christ healing this blind man.
Now can evil spirits do miracles?
Rev 16:13-14 (13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 13:2-4 (2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
We see the unclean spirits like frogs coming out of Satan, the Antichrist and the false prophet.
It is the spirit of devils working miracles, which of course the dragon is the devil of devils.
We see evidence of miracles through the false prophet in this next scripture:
Rev 13:13 (13) And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Fire is going to be caused to come down in some form through the false prophet.
But also it says that the Antichrist also has an unclean spirit as a frog, which does miracles.
And there is only one place that I can think of, of were it shows a miracle done through the beast.
Rev 13:2-4 (2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. (3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
See it does not say that the beast himself directly received this wound, but rather it is one of his heads that received the wound.
That is one of the seven heads.
What happens here, is that one of the seven heads, which are leaders of 7 nations, receives as it were a deadly wound.
It does not say that this leader necessarily dies of this deadly wound, but if he did not get healed, it would have led to his death, for the wound was deadly.
And at this point the Antichrist had already formed this newly revised Grecian empire, yet through the near death of this leader, it may cause some commotion, of this pack being broken, and this empire coming to an end, but I believe that the Antichrist here will be used to heal this leader, through an evil spirit, thus avoiding this disaster.
And it is quite possible that many will think that this leader has died of his wound, possibly through an assassination attempt, but through the Antichrist shall be healed, which I believe will be broad cast throughout the world’s news agencies, and it may be reported that the Antichrist has raised that leader who received a wound, from the dead.
And thus some will say this:
Rev 13:4 (4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
So this is the only place that I can think of, of there being possibly a type of healing via evil spirits.
And no doubt, the Devil’s healings are not the same as God’s healings, Satan and his evil spirits no doubt must be limited in the aspect of some type of healing, but in any case, the devil’s wonders do not have an holy aspect to them, and Satan seeks to kill, steal and destroy, which his wonders will direct and point to a path of destruction, in one way or another.
And I think one of the many differences between Satan’s miracles, and God’s miracles, is the holy aspect of God’s miracles vs the unholy aspect of Satan’s miracles.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 17, 2018 9:56:06 GMT -5
And no doubt, the Devil’s healings are not the same as God’s healings, Satan and his evil spirits no doubt must be limited in the aspect of some type of healing, but in any case, the devil’s wonders do not have an holy aspect to them, and Satan seeks to kill, steal and destroy, which his wonders will direct and point to a path of destruction, in one way or another. And I think one of the many differences between Satan’s miracles, and God’s miracles, is the holy aspect of God’s miracles vs the unholy aspect of Satan’s miracles. Yes, this is something I have pondered. The fruit that grows from a miracle. Someone prophesies an event which comes to pass, but it’s a pointless, short-lived event. They heal you from an illness, but it comes with conditions such as continually paying tribute or keeping a statue in your house. They help you conceive a baby, but the child has an unnecessary disability. Witchcraft will always leave its calling card behind. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. — James 1:17
The man who had his eyes opened in John 9 clearly felt that a good, selfless deed had been done for his benefit.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 17, 2018 10:04:25 GMT -5
On the other side, for real Christian ministers, there’s the question of how much personal authority we have over our gifts. Paul does say the spirit of a prophet is subject to a prophet. Does God micro-manage our gifts, where it’s always Him doing the action and we are mere vessels? Or do we receive spiritual tools that we must learn to manage? 1 Corinthians suggest it is the latter.
I’m wondering if the practice of iniquity (lawlessness) in Matthew 7 is related to this. Spiritual gifts rightly apprehended in a Christian church but used in lawless ways to promulgate confusion, fear, instability, and bad doctrine inside the church.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 17, 2018 19:28:10 GMT -5
we need to look at the whole passage in 1Cor do get an understanding on that verse... 1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge. 1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace. 1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. 1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets. 1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
I have said this several times before on this website... the gifts are not to you... but thru you. we are only vessels. lets examine this closer.
Word of knowledge/wisdom...this is where The Spirit imparts to you knowledge or wisdom that before shared with you... you would have no way of knowing.
tongues... Holy Ghost speaking THRU you and the interpretation is God giving you this tongues meaning.
healings/miracles... Holy Ghosts power thru you
gift of faith... this one is kind of tricky to explain without asking a question... can you manifest your own faith?
prophecy.. divinely inspired anointed utterance.
discerning of spirits... this is supernatural ability to discern the spiritual realm around us and their activities... what is hidden from our eyes.
we can not make God manifest... 1Co 12:4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit. 1Co 12:5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord. 1Co 12:6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all. 1Co 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 17, 2018 19:31:08 GMT -5
Luk 8:46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
anointing. Holy Ghost oil.
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Post by 2fw8212a on Dec 17, 2018 20:04:18 GMT -5
I’m wondering if the practice of iniquity (lawlessness) in Matthew 7 is related to this. I do not believe it is related to this.Or do we receive spiritual tools that we must learn to manage? 1 Corinthians suggest it is the latter. I believe manifestation of spiritual gifts occur by response to faith.
"...for whatever is not from faith is sin." - Romans 14:23
Now, this is a very personal topic because I believe every person will experience different degrees of faith in different situations.
And I can say that I have learned a lot on how to interpret the spiritual inputs I was unaware of in the past.
Then I believe there is definitely a learning curve.
That is why some people lose lots of opportunities to minister, they received the input but did not answer to it or did not recognize it.
Then, if the Spirit wants us to do something and it has to be YOU, then the level of the input will go to very high levels and you will notice it even if you are not that much in spirit.
And I have noticed that when I am disconnected from the outside world and more filled than usual I feel, see, and perceive things I usually do not when I am distracted.
I believe growth in spiritual gifts are very personal and can vary a lot by individual.
Some are more interested to follow and let the unction flow than others.
It takes faith, and faith grows by time and practice... At the first time you feel so sure about doing something but still are afraid of taking the next step.
Yes, there are things that happen to show you something or to teach you, I believe.
"Therefore whoever humbles himself as this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 18:4
"And whoever of you desires to be first shall be slave of all." - Mark 10:44
"or who is greater, he who sits at the table, or he who serves?... ...Yet I am among you as the One who serves." - Luke 22:27
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Post by Abdicate on Dec 17, 2018 20:04:32 GMT -5
On the other side, for real Christian ministers, there’s the question of how much personal authority we have over our gifts. Paul does say the spirit of a prophet is subject to a prophet. Does God micro-manage our gifts, where it’s always Him doing the action and we are mere vessels? Or do we receive spiritual tools that we must learn to manage? 1 Corinthians suggest it is the latter. I’m wondering if the practice of iniquity (lawlessness) in Matthew 7 is related to this. Spiritual gifts rightly apprehended in a Christian church but used in lawless ways to promulgate confusion, fear, instability, and bad doctrine inside the church.
Remember, most do not believe in the gifts. A VERY respected pastor/teacher known to most if not all, is now actively teaching against the gifts of the Spirit - or better stated, the manifestations of the power of the Kingdom. The word of God is filled with miracles, signs, and wonders, but God's people no longer believe in the gifts. The gifts are used when the Spirit deems them necessary. But, as Jesus said, "let it be according to your strong conviction." So many people lack a strong conviction towards the spirit realm. From cover to cover, the word of God is filled with examples of the gifts. God said "yes" both in Hebrew and Greek in this verse:
Many teach against them because they do not believe they exist. This causes great consternation among the body of Christ.
To get to believing in the verse above, one must first begin in the previous book:
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 8:11:51 GMT -5
This is your doctrine.
No Israelite who rejects Jesus will receive salvation but be thrown into the lake of fire.
No heathen or gentile who did not get the chance to hear about Christ will be thrown into the lake of fire. Too bad if he was born before Christ came with the good news, he's condemned anyway because he was born before that time.
The same judgement for all - no buts. No circumstances taken into consideration.
The great white throne judgement is just a day of sentencing for the lake of fire. No mercy whatsoever.
Everyone is judged by the same judgement.
God is black and white. He can see into the heart that it wasn't truly wicked but doesn't care. No Jesus, lake of fire.
The millennium serves no purpose. All those nations existing must of been God fearing Christians who need to be taught again because all the non believers are in hell.
All Israel living in the kingdom must of been reconciled to God and made Christians before the Millennium but missed out on the first resurrection.
God has righteous judgement and no man can say what is fair and what isn't. God is the potter and can destroy the clay - he can do whatever he likes because he's God, but he cannot fix the clay for it's too late in the day and God has to rest now.
There is no more death now because every one is perfected but nations are still healing.
God's everlasting mercy is all used up in this life. He cannot produce mercy past this point. It's all used up.
We don't have to use scripture to prove a point.
It's ok to ignore scripture.
If you are outnumbered you are wrong because the majority vote wins.
We know everything and there is nothing more to learn.
I think this thread has run it's course. It's no use repeating myself over and over. Please pray about this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 8:53:10 GMT -5
Just want to make one last comment on this if I may, then let the thread continue with it's original topic....I'm sorry to be so slow to percolate. Sister, there is no effort to gang up on you, please don't take it that way. I hope we are coming in a spirit of wanting to help you out on this subject, not to be against you.
It's appointed unto man but once to die and after that the judgment. At that time whoever is not found in the book of Life at that time...will end up in the lake of fire. This life is the only time we have been given to be reconciled to Him. The great mercy of God is that He sent His Son to die that whosoever should believe on Him will have eternal life. That is His mercy and is the hub of the wheel..past, present and future. The Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world....is the mystery of God from the foundation of the world. No small potatoes but the hub of man's existence and God's plan to save Him. The survivors of the tribulation at the return of Christ are not dead and so are no resurrected and do not appear before the judgment seat...it does seem from scripture that they go on to live into the millennium, not so as to be part of the Bride and New Jerusalem to rule and reign with the Lord (time is up for that, and the door is closed at His return) but to be part of Israel and the nations who live on into the millennium under the rule and governance of Christ and New Jerusalem. A time for Jesus the Victor to triumph over the enemy and restore what Adam lost (remember it was originally Adam's assignment to subdue the earth and take dominion of it)....it might be significant that the thousand years approximates the length of Adam's life. The last Adam Christ will subdue the earth and take dominion of it during His millennial reign. The restoration of all things.....restores the dominion to Christ that Adam lost and the devil stole.
Please check and see if this fits Sister, but I believe the scriptures you are seeing that have to do with God defending the poor, being a father to the fatherless and husband of the widow, etc......are because not many of us were noble, wise, wealthy and had it all together and life going our way when we were called. Remember that God has chosen the weak things of the world to inherit the kingdom and shame the strong...notice how the majority of the flock of Christ are made up of people who were poor, downtrodden, orphaned (literally or figuratively), unprotected, abused and suffering in various ways in this life....even there is a scripture that says if your mother and father forsake you, then the Lord will take you up. Doesn't mean every single solitary person who has suffered injustice in this life will be saved, but that God turns it around for the good of those who are called according to His purpose, He thus turns the tables on the enemy. Suffering prepares the heart to be able to receive the gospel....that is His great mercy to the poor and downtrodden, and why the gospel is good news to the poor. Those for whom the world is their oyster and have everything going their way in this life, are for the most part too spoiled and self-satisfied to know their need. Anyway those are just some thoughts that I believe came from the Lord about this, I encourage you just to prayerfully test it with the help of the Holy Spirit, against the scriptures you are looking at and see if it makes sense.
Thanks for bearing with my late reply on this.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2018 9:14:19 GMT -5
Mat 7:20-24
“Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
“Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
“And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
“Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock
Taking all these scriptures together it seems to be talking about those who minister in His name but do not live out the gospel in their own personal life......they are not showing the fruits of repentance and Christlikeness personally. They are accumulating wealth and fame, lavish lifestyles, sinning, committing adultery, etc. And also perhaps that they minister out of presumption, not doing the will of the Father being led by the Spirit, but doing and ministering according to their own will....grandstanding and parading the holy things of God in front of cameras for their own glory and to bring in money, etc. They are not building their house on the rock of Jesus' sayings in their own life, but meanwhile they are ministering in His name, and they will not be saved by their ministering, but only by following Jesus and having their life planted on the rock.
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