PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 18, 2018 9:32:33 GMT -5
I think we have beaten this topic as much as we can beaten it
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 18, 2018 10:54:41 GMT -5
Being used of God
There is the question of, who can be used in the gifts of the Spirit or who can be used to lay hands on the sick and so forth. First of all the bible says this: 1Jn 3:22-23 (22) And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. (23) And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. To lay hands on the sick it takes faith, and to ask anything in his name in the right manner, it takes faith. And it talks about doing those things that are pleasing in his sight, and God wants us to live a holy life. Also what it says of faith is this: Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love. Eph 6:23 (23) Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Of course it is never about merits, but rather about us surrendering ourselves to God, and allowing him to work his salvation in us. Now what about the 9 gifts of the Spirit, and the fruit of the Spirit? Gal 5:22-23 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. 1Co 12:7-11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (8) For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; (10) To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will. Now notice concerning the fruit of the Spirit, it is the fruit of the Spirit big S, that is the fruit of the Holy Spirit. We know that there is no sin in the fruit of the Spirit, which comes from the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is God. Then there is the gifts of the Spirit, what are these gifts called? They are called the manifestation of the Spirit big s. That is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit. And we have to remember that the Holy Spirit is God, and God is love. And I do not believe that the manifestation of the Spirit is done outside of love, for how can it since it is the Holy Spirit manifesting these things? Now is there evidence that the manifestations of the Spirit are called gifts? Yes there is, and here are examples of that: 1Co 12:7-11 (9) To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 1Co 13:2 (2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. Here are two examples to show that they are gifts. Now it might be said that is God in control of the gifts, or is man in control of the gifts? Well let us compare scriptures side by side to each other: 1Co 12:7,11 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. (11) But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
| 1Co 14:31-32 (31) For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted. (32) And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
|
Now God can use anyone to prophesy, but it seems that the prophet flows in the gift of prophecy on a more regular basis than others. So on one hand the manifestation is manifest by the Holy Spirit, for it is called a manifestation of the Spirit. Yet on the other hand it mentions that the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets, so how do we reconcile these two things? Well it is never according to if a prophet wills for the gift of prophecy to make itself manifest, he can make it become manifest, for it is the Spirit that makes himself manifest in this, and it is as the Lord wills, and not as man wills, yet at the same time, you have to be subject to God’s will in order to be used in these things. So the spirit of the prophets being subject to the prophets, I do not believe that it refers to prophets being able to prophesy at will, for no one is called to prophesy 24 hours a day. It is by the leading of the Spirit, but at the same time I do believe that prophets may be used in a more profound way within the gift of prophecy, and the spirit of the prophets being subject to the prophets, I believe points to them being in control of whether to allow it or not, to be used in their lives, and of course at different moments, but never without the leading of the Spirit. I believe that when Paul was correcting the Corinthians about how to properly use the gifts of the Spirit, he was telling them the appropriate way to use them, and the not appropriate way to use them, but when people try to use the gifts of the Spirit in an inappropriate way, I do not believe that it is the manifestation of the Spirit that is being manifest, since The Holy Spirit only makes himself manifest through love, but rather I believe that this is what is happening: Eze 13:2 (2) Son of man, prophesy against the prophets of Israel that prophesy, and say thou unto them that prophesy out of their own hearts, Hear ye the word of the LORD; That is what they are doing prophesying out of their own hearts. And we have to remember that these, under New covenant times are indwelling gifts, yet under the Old covenant, things like prophecy was not an indwelling gift, but the Spirit was poured upon men in some fashion. And of course they did not have tongues, and whatever else they did not have on this list. This is what the bible says about the gifts: 1Co 12:7 (7) But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. These gifts are for the profit of man, for their edification and so forth, that is why they were given, so if someone tries to use them in a way that it was not given to be used, is it really the Spirit moving, or the imagination of one’s heart? In my next post I will cover, who can be used in these gifts, in a detailed manner.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 18, 2018 11:28:13 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 18, 2018 11:39:10 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
This is what I was getting at before. Belief in Jesus, even in the absence of spiritual regeneration, can get results when we fight the enemy.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 18, 2018 11:42:34 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
I do not believe that these men who were not with the disciples were unbelievers, for it says he that is not against us is on our part. They were not against God at all. Here is a quote from John Wesley: (John Wesley)(Mark 9:39 Forbid him not - Do not prevent his doing good. If he can work a miracle in my name, it is sufficient proof of attachment to me, and he should not be prevented....) Just because they were not part of the group of the disciples, does not mean they were not believers.
It would be like saying just because so and so does not belong to my church, he is not a believer.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 18, 2018 11:46:57 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
I do not believe that these men who were not with the disciples were unbelievers, for it says he that is not against us is on our part. They were not against God at all. Here is a quote from John Wesley: (John Wesley)(Mark 9:39 Forbid him not - Do not prevent his doing good. If he can work a miracle in my name, it is sufficient proof of attachment to me, and he should not be prevented....) Just because they were not part of the group of the disciples, does not mean they were not believers.
It would be like saying just because so and so does not belong to my church, he is not a believer. It uses the language, "followeth us not," so I see that as meaning that they were not actual disciples of Christ. That is not the same as being part of a different denomination or church, but I can't conclusively rule out that they may have fully had their faith in the Lord. I just don't think they did. They were not against him, but that doesn't mean they were disciples. I have known of atheists that are not against the Lord. They are not actively fighting against him.
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 18, 2018 11:49:10 GMT -5
It depends on what the disciples mean by “followeth not us.” Were the disciples a denominational clique who got offended that someone didn’t need them, or was this truly a lone wolf who didn’t want the disciple lifestyle?
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 18, 2018 12:14:49 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
No. Look closer at it . THE other man WAS a BELIEVER IN JESUS . He was not in their group , BUT HE WAS a believer in JESUS . We saw another casting out devils , IN WHOSE NAME , JESUS name . It was like the episode in the old test . Where two men did not go into the tabernacle with the other sixty eight , instead they were prophesying to Israel. And moses said , envioust thou for my sake , MAN I WISH ALL WERE PROPHETS . The reason JESUS said this to them is much like the same reason he told peter WHAT business is it of yours what this man does , if he tarry till I come what is that to YOU . YOU go and feed the church . Folks don't have to be IN OUR Groups , THEY simply have to KNOW JESUS . OH and about those catholic exorcisms , what makes us think that those demons are not allowed to be cast out , BUT ITS DELUSION to follow ROME . Remember if even a dreamer of dreams does arise and whatever he does , whatever he dreams even comes to pass, DO NOT FOLLOW HIM ANYWAY . FOR I the LORD your GOD , do test you to see whether YE LOVE ME . YEP . AND DOUBLE YEP .
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 18, 2018 12:21:09 GMT -5
It depends on what the disciples mean by “followeth not us.” Were the disciples a denominational clique who got offended that someone didn’t need them, or was this truly a lone wolf who didn’t want the disciple lifestyle? Here is a real simple way to see this . Your first half is right on . AND JESUS KNEW what was in the desciples hearts . We forbade him, BUT WHY , because he didn't walk with the group . And condemning one for not being IN a particular group is already a root of pride . You can smell it a mile away , for anyone not in their clique and follows not their man leader , AINT IN JESUS according to these folks . You can whiff it a mile a way . FOR they wont often talk about JESUS , BUT THEY WILL BOAST n the things they do , and say alas , alas we the only way . SNIFF, WHIFF, OH NO THANKS . That would be like us saying , well every christain who aint on narrow way , AINT CHRISTAIN . BUT no one here does that . Notice JOHN did not say , but we forbade him because he follows NOT YOU LORD . BUT because he follows not us . JESUS knew how to shut down even the smallest amount of leaven . WE SHOULD TOO . so on that note let all flee any form of inclusivity and HEED and FOLLOW ONLY CHRIST.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 18, 2018 12:21:10 GMT -5
I had something come to mind as I was sitting here, and that was something that happened with Jesus and his disciples. If it has already been mentioned, the thread has gotten long, and I was dealing with overlapping topics, but I don't remember reading it.
And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us. But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me. For he that is not against us is on our part." Mark 9:38-40
Apparently, it is possible that someone who is not a direct follower of Jesus can at times use his name and still perform miracles. I have heard stories of Catholic priests at times being successful in casting out demons through the use of exorcisms, though their success rate is far from perfect.
No. Look closer at it . THE other man WAS a BELIEVER IN JESUS . He was not in their group , BUT HE WAS a believer in JESUS . We saw another casting out devils , IN WHOSE NAME , JESUS name . It was like the episode in the old test . Where two men did not go into the tabernacle with the other sixty eight , instead they were prophesying to Israel. And moses said , envioust thou for my sake , MAN I WISH ALL WERE PROPHETS . The reason JESUS said this to them is much like the same reason he told peter WHAT business is it of yours what this man does , if he tarry till I come what is that to YOU . YOU go and feed the church . Folks don't have to be IN OUR Groups , THEY simply have to KNOW JESUS . OH and about those catholic exorcisms , what makes us think that those demons are not allowed to be cast out , BUT ITS DELUSION to follow ROME . Remember if even a dreamer of dreams does arise and whatever he does , whatever he dreams even comes to pass, DO NOT FOLLOW HIM ANYWAY . FOR I the LORD your GOD , do test you to see whether YE LOVE ME . YEP . AND DOUBLE YEP .
Catholic Priests use the name of Jesus all the time in performing exorcisms, and they believe Jesus is the Son of God. It is not that clear cut.
|
|
|
Post by Giller on Dec 18, 2018 12:21:32 GMT -5
The use of the gifts of the Spirit
Who can be used in the gifts of the Spirit or not?
Some will say how come this guy or gal is being used in a gift of the Spirit yet they struggle with this sin or that sin?
Now we know that in the Corinthian church there was a whole lot of things to correct, and not just in the area of the gifts of the Spirit.
Many of them had the gifts.
And of course there is a difference between practicing sin and struggling in sin.
A Christian can fall into sin, struggle in sin, but cannot practice sin, unless they completely turn away from God, and now are servants of sin, and no longer servants of Christ, therefore no longer being true Christians.
1Jn 3:9
(9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
It is not that a Christian cannot commit sin, but if he does, he repents of his sin, and puts his faith in the blood of the Lamb to cleanse him.
The seed of the word of God remains in him.
But a Christian cannot be a practiser of sin.
So now why do certain Christians, who may not have the greatest witness, be used in the gifts of the Spirit?
We have to remember that it takes faith to be able to be used in these gifts.
And also the word of God says this:
Gal 5:6 (6) For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.
Eph 6:23 (23) Peace be to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
So even though a Christian may be struggling in a sin in their lives, if at a certain moment in their lives, they put their faith in God, which worketh by love, then the manifestation of the Spirit can work through them.
See to be used in the gifts of the Spirit, it is not about status, it is about allowing oneself to be used of God, no matter where you are at in the Lord.
The mature and the immature in the Lord can be used in the gifts of the Spirit.
And no I do not believe that the immature in the Lord, cannot ever walk in the love of God, they may not walk under this love as much as someone that is mature, but nevertheless, they can still do so.
Really it is about the blood of the Lamb that enables all of us to be used in the gifts, as the Spirit leads, or in any way for that matter.
Neither does it mean that if someone is used in the gifts of the Spirit that he is more mature than someone else.
Here are some scriptures to think about:
1Co 13:1-3 (1) Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal. (2) And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing. (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
Here it mentions just having the gift of prophecy, or just having the faith to remove mountains, it is not saying that these things operate outside of love, but you could have these things within you, and at the moment not be walking in love.
Just having these things within you, does not equal you walking in the love of God.
And remember that prophecy is a manifestation of the Spirit.
Now there are examples in the bible, to were God used a donkey to talk to someone, and also used Saul when he had departed from God to prophesy, but in an indirect way, and not because the gift of prophecy was flowing through him.
But as far as someone casting out demons and someone laying hands on the sick, I see no examples in the bible, in the realm of someone who is not with the Lord, being used in such a manner.
There are times were God can pour out his Spirit upon a person, (not because they have the gifts flowing through them) and they are unbelievers, and they end up prophesying.
But it is not God's usual way, and if God has to use a stone, he can speak through a stone.
And then there is the verse that says that if you speak with the tongues of men and angels, and have not love.
Of course we can speak in our language, and be not be speaking in love, but what is the tongue of angels?
I know many suggest that it is speaking in tongues, but I am not so sure about this, for I do not know any scripture that shows angels speaking in tongues, but I do see scriptures that show certain types of angels speaking holy holy holy, as concerns the Lord.
Could tongues of angels just simply be pointing to speaking the word of God?
And of course we can speak the word of God in a loving manner or in an unloving manner.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 18, 2018 12:25:10 GMT -5
Now let all beware the inclusive form of this . For they try and include this to mean , THOSE WHO don't even believe n JESUS or if anyone tries to correct one , then they are doing wrong as well. They know how to lie and quite well too . An example , if we see one not FOLLOWING CHRIST we know they lost . OR if we see one who claims his name yet walks n willfull sin they are lost . YET Inclusviness would say WHO are we to judge, just because they walk like not us . SEE HOW DECEPTIVE THEY ARE . THEY LIE and can twist any scripture unto their own destruction . THEY LIE and worse it does get .
|
|
PG4Him
Senior Member
Essay Moderator
Posts: 3,570
|
Post by PG4Him on Dec 18, 2018 12:26:40 GMT -5
I have also seen people who are not born-again Christians remove an evil spirit when they are desperate enough to use the name of Jesus.
|
|
|
Post by John on Dec 18, 2018 12:29:32 GMT -5
I have also seen people who are not born-again Christians remove an evil spirit when they are desperate enough to use the name of Jesus. There is power in the name of Jesus! That is not just the words to a song, but it is real.
|
|
|
Post by frienduff on Dec 18, 2018 12:29:55 GMT -5
No. Look closer at it . THE other man WAS a BELIEVER IN JESUS . He was not in their group , BUT HE WAS a believer in JESUS . We saw another casting out devils , IN WHOSE NAME , JESUS name . It was like the episode in the old test . Where two men did not go into the tabernacle with the other sixty eight , instead they were prophesying to Israel. And moses said , envioust thou for my sake , MAN I WISH ALL WERE PROPHETS . The reason JESUS said this to them is much like the same reason he told peter WHAT business is it of yours what this man does , if he tarry till I come what is that to YOU . YOU go and feed the church . Folks don't have to be IN OUR Groups , THEY simply have to KNOW JESUS . OH and about those catholic exorcisms , what makes us think that those demons are not allowed to be cast out , BUT ITS DELUSION to follow ROME . Remember if even a dreamer of dreams does arise and whatever he does , whatever he dreams even comes to pass, DO NOT FOLLOW HIM ANYWAY . FOR I the LORD your GOD , do test you to see whether YE LOVE ME . YEP . AND DOUBLE YEP .
Catholic Priests use the name of Jesus all the time in performing exorcisms, and they believe Jesus is the Son of God. It is not that clear cut.
Actually , it can be . Take a whiff of their fruits , they pray to the dead , they exalt and bow to statures , even worse it gets they going all inclusive . Miracles , signs and wonders can be done by the very false . Course everything I just said , YOU already know . They are as james once said , OH you believe their is one GOD you do well , but even devils believe . their works are dead as is their faith . On that note , they are some who will be called out and oh we pray they are . In revelations what was the One thing it makes sure to say caused them to even take the mark or worshp the beast . HOW were they deceived . BY THE MIRALCES HE HAD POWER TO DO IN THE SIGHT OF THE BEAST . Miracles can be very , very deceptive . If they fruits stink , then we follow them not . again , I know you already KNOW THIS .
|
|