PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 18:38:08 GMT -5
Call it a revival or whatever you like. The point is, souls could be recalled from Sheol. Regardless of whether they understood what was happening or not, their death could be reversed.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on May 28, 2018 18:40:54 GMT -5
It feels like we’re starting to go in circles, so I wil probably bow out of this soon.
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Post by John on May 29, 2018 10:52:26 GMT -5
Elijah and the widow with the cruz of oil... And he stretched himself out on the child three times, and cried out to the Lord and said, “O Lord my God, I pray, let this child’s soul come back to him.” Then the Lord heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came back to him, and he revived. And Elijah took the child and brought him down from the upper room into the house, and gave him to his mother. And Elijah said, “See, your son lives!” Then the woman said to Elijah, “Now by this I know that you are a man of God, and that the word of the Lord in your mouth is the truth.”-- 1 Kings 17:21-24 Also remember that Jesus resurrected three people (Lazarus, widow of Nain's son, Jairus' daughter) before He invaded the grave Himself. No one could resurrect a person in living color without God's power. But it was indeed possible to recall a person from the grave. Yes yes, I forgot about that one, thank you! Praise the Lord. But that was not a resurrection, only a revival of the flesh, in both cases. In the resurrection you cannot die again. After Lazarus was revived, they tried to kill him again. I think I would call it a resurrection, but they weren't given a glorified body. That is why they would eventually return to the grave.
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Post by justinadams on May 30, 2018 9:53:42 GMT -5
Smith Wiggleworth brought back Rose, his wife from the dead. The Lord told him that He wanted her to be with Him so Smith let her go. He also raised others like Yeshua said.
Yeshua raised Lazarus and a little girl. So did a prophet in the Tanach. Someone even revived after touching a prophets bones.
We have some really odd teachings about death today. We confuse, 'Heaven' and 'Paradise' with 'Sheol' and the realms of the dead that we know so very little about.
Yeshua raised Samuel as the scripture says. Nothing happens without God's permission anyway, so this should not be of concern to us because we do not have the ability to understand completely. The fact that Saul was going to be in Sheol awaiting judgement along with Samuel should not concern us either. Whatever will happen when we die will happen regardless of what we think we know.
Too much spin on this subject has already been seen. Suffice it to be as Yahweh ordains it. No more, no less.
We just need to make sure we do not experience the second death...
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Post by Sister on May 30, 2018 19:39:20 GMT -5
John 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
John 12:1 Then Jesus six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was which had been dead, whom he raised from the dead.
John 12:2 There they made him a supper; and Martha served: but Lazarus was one of them that sat at the table with him.
John 12:9 Much people of the Jews therefore knew that he was there: and they came not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead.
John 12:10 But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;
John 12:17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record.
The above shows that Lazarus was "raised" from the dead,..."raised" from out of the grave, and because of this miracle the Jews sought to kill Lazarus to hide this truth.
Notice the word resurrection is not used?, nor in any other case of the same thing happening with others in the NT, or in the example PG4HIM gave of the OT....because they all died again.
The first "resurrected" from the dead, where death is conquered, was Christ, and we shall be like him. Before him no man was given eternal life from the grave, but simply had the breath of life put back into them, even after the body started to decay.
Christ could of resurrected Lazarus if he wanted to, but if he did, Christ would not be the first of the resurrection, and the scriptures would be broken, as it was appointed for him to have the preeminence in everything.
Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Colossians 1:13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
Colossians 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Colossians 1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
Colossians 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Colossians 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Colossians 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Another reason why I point this out, is because the same will happen with the remnants of Israel who are chosen from every generation to take part in the millennial kingdom on earth. They will be raised in the same way Lazarus was, in the flesh and not the spirit. Although God will put his spirit in them (change their mindset to be holy) they will live again, and multiply their seed because they are flesh, but will die blessed at the age of hundred, meaning they will live a good long life.
Isaiah 49:6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
Ezekiel 37:6 And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall know that I am the LORD.
Isaiah 65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed.
Today, babies die, and many are taken young before their time. I read that doctors have the shortest life span, and average dying around 60 yrs or younger...figure that one out? During the millennium, those in the flesh will live a good long life, blessed (if they are in the Lord), or die cursed at the age of 100...if they are not obeying the laws of the kingdom which rules over the whole earth.
In the resurrection, one becomes like the angels....spirit, and can never die again, as for the other cases, their body is just being revived back to the last state it was and that is flesh, with the breath of life put back in them, where they will die again. There is a difference and the word resurrected should be used accordingly.
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Post by 2fw8212a on May 31, 2018 16:21:43 GMT -5
The first "resurrected" from the dead, where death is conquered, was Christ, and we shall be like him. Before him no man was given eternal life from the grave, but simply had the breath of life put back into them, even after the body started to decay. Agreed.
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Post by Giller on Dec 19, 2018 1:30:24 GMT -5
I would agree that it was a demon, and even today, diviners have demons speak through them, and they think it really is the real person, and so does the person asking to bring up such and such.
Would God truly use witchcraft to speak to people when he is against it?
And it was this woman that said it was Samuel, and Saul perceived it was Samuel, but God did not say it was Samuel.
And one strange phrase that this woman diviner says is in this next phrase:
1Sa 28:13 (13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
Why did she see gods plural come out of the earth?
And demons can speak truth as well.
1Sa 28:7 (7) Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
And this woman had a familiar spirit, which she could bring up spirits that can act in a familiar way, to were they can act as a dead person.
Here is a comment fro Joseph Benson:
(Joseph Benson)
(1 Samuel 28:7
Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit — That converses with evil spirits, or hath power to call up, or make to appear, the spirits of dead persons, in order to answer questions, or give information of what may be inquired of them: see on Deu_18:10-11. ...)
Of course when they called up dead persons, it was really evil spirits that came on the scene, and not truly the dead.
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Post by John on Dec 19, 2018 9:59:23 GMT -5
There are legitimate arguments to be made on both sides of this issue. We are seeing an account of events that occurred, and the witch thought Samuel was speaking through her. Would God allow a witch to bring back the soul of a prophet of God? Some would say, absolutely not.
On the other hand the Bible calls him Samuel, not a demon pretending to be Samuel, so if we take the text as written, it was Samuel, and as a general rule, taking the text as written is the proper way to interpret scripture. I am still not 100 percent sure, but I came in leaning towards it being a demon to leaning the other way because the text says it was Samuel.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 19, 2018 10:10:56 GMT -5
There are places in the Bible where irresponsible humans say incorrect things, but usually the story will show us when that’s the case. I don’t believe God allows humans to lie and deceive throughout His holy Scriptures without any clear rebuke. It is too easy to dismiss what makes us uncomfortable by claiming someone lied. But, that’s my personal viewpoint. I don’t really want to revive this debate.
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Post by John on Dec 19, 2018 10:24:10 GMT -5
There are places in the Bible where irresponsible humans say incorrect things, but usually the story will show us when that’s the case. I don’t believe God allows humans to lie and deceive throughout His holy Scriptures without any clear rebuke. It is too easy to dismiss what makes us uncomfortable by claiming someone lied. But, that’s my personal viewpoint. I don’t really want to revive this debate. You make a very good point when you say that it is easy "to dismiss what makes us uncomfortable." The basis for saying it couldn't have been Samuel is a pre-conceived idea about God and what he will do and what he will allow. There is nothing in the text to indicate this was a demon.
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Cletus
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Post by Cletus on Dec 19, 2018 21:00:48 GMT -5
1Sa 28:19 Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
Isa 29:4 And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust.
1Sa 28:13 And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
these are scriptures that have left me undecided on which side of the debate is true. if the figure said to a man cast off from God you will be with me tomorrow... is Abrahams bosom truly separate? i can neither answer this by scripture, nor can i speak from experience. i can also not refute anyones claims in this thread. I have read many commentaries of men that any one of them surely are more educated than myself, and some go with it was a devil, and others go with it was really him. would these gods, little g, aka fallen angels, have power over one of Gods own? also worth considering here is the prophet spoken of to be called up often wore a judges robe and perhaps is why elohim was used by the witch as judges were called this back then.
i must also say though, in no way am i trying to say God or the bible lied. there may be something in the hebrew we do not read in english. it will take some time to explore this. stand by.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 19, 2018 21:50:24 GMT -5
Sounds good Cletus!
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 2:18:19 GMT -5
1Sa 28:11-15 (11) Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. (12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul. (13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth. (14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself. (15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
Now of course the discussion is about whether or not it was the real Samuel or a demon that appeared.
No doubt these are the only two possible answers to this.
And on both sides there seems to be legitimate arguments.
Now whatever it was demon or not, it was brought up.
Now at this time, believing men went to paradise, they were not in heaven yet, but paradise was in the heart of the earth, and their was a gap between hell and paradise.
So the possibility of being brought up was there, but would of God caused someone to be brought up in this fashion, through divination?
Then there is the case of what it says in our next verses:
1Sa 28:6-7 (6) And when Saul enquired of the LORD, the LORD answered him not, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets. (7) Then said Saul unto his servants, Seek me a woman that hath a familiar spirit, that I may go to her, and enquire of her. And his servants said to him, Behold, there is a woman that hath a familiar spirit at Endor.
Just before Saul went to this woman with familiar spirits, he sought answers from God, yet God did not answer him, neither by dreams, nor by Urim, nor by prophets.
Who did Saul call up? A prophet.
Yet God was not answering Saul through prophets any longer, so why would God be now stirred up through Saul seeking answers through a diviner?
And Samuel could not have come to this diviner of his own choice for he was in paradise, only God had the power to allow him to go and give a message to Saul, yet at this time God was not answering Saul through prophets.
And even Samuel at the end of his life no longer came to even see Saul.
1Sa 15:35 (35) And Samuel came no more to see Saul until the day of his death: nevertheless Samuel mourned for Saul: and the LORD repented that he had made Saul king over Israel.
So the divining woman said it was Samuel, Saul perceived it was Samuel, but then we go to verse 15:
1Sa 28:15 (15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
It says and Samuel said to Saul.
Hmmm.
It is possible that God just allowed for this story to be told, in just simply in the way that it happened, and it seems that Saul really thought that Samuel was talking to him, nevertheless was it a spirit calling itself Samuel, and somehow God just allowed the script to say Samuel said to Saul, because this demon was presenting itself by that name?
And God just allowed the story to be told that way?
Well I must admit though, this would be the best argument on the side that says this was really Samuel, because they will say that the scriptures say it says Samuel said, and it does.
But then it also shows that God was no longer speaking to Saul, not even by prophets which Samuel was one.
And this woman did not call up Samuel by the Spirit of God, but by a familiar spirit.
1Sa 28:8 (8) And Saul disguised himself, and put on other raiment, and he went, and two men with him, and they came to the woman by night: and he said, I pray thee, divine unto me by the familiar spirit, and bring me him up, whom I shall name unto thee.
So there is legitimate arguments on both sides.
And some people today sometimes try to use this scripture to make divination legit, using this scripture to say God approves of divination.
If it was Samuel, then it would have been one of those very unusual times that God would allow this, other wise he would not, but there are too many questions unanswered to really say for certain, and things that just make you question it.
But in the end, this is what the scriptures say:
1Ch 10:13 (13) So Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it;
And notice what it says, it says he enquired of it, that is of the familiar spirit.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Dec 25, 2018 9:03:24 GMT -5
Here is one more question I would humbly ask: why would a demon pretending to be Samuel give a prophecy of God’s judgment that came true? Was Saul’s death in battle a product of false signs and wonders, or was it from the hand of God? I know the idea here is that the demon pretended to be Samuel, but that was a dead-on acting job, even to the point of predicting God’s will.
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Post by Giller on Dec 25, 2018 10:41:10 GMT -5
Here is one more question I would humbly ask: why would a demon pretending to be Samuel give a prophecy of God’s judgment that came true? Was Saul’s death in battle a product of false signs and wonders, or was it from the hand of God? I know the idea here is that the demon pretended to be Samuel, but that was a dead-on acting job, even to the point of predicting God’s will. Ya that is no doubt something to think about as well. How could have the demon predicted the will of God in this case. Hmmm, who knows, because it seems that the demon somehow would had have to have some pre knowledge somehow, and if so, who knows how they could have gotten that. I know that I have heard of demons predicting things correctly at times, and it seems that they do try to make things happen, but in this case, it does not appear that this is the case. So how? Who knows, but if it was so, a demon would have to have heard it somewhere first, for they cannot predict the future like God, but they can make things happen, so that it looks like they can, and also demons do know prophecy. So ya interesting point Candace.
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