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Post by frienduff on Sept 5, 2020 12:40:31 GMT -5
... "You are really and truly and completely free. There is no kicker. There is no if, and, or but. You are free. You can do it right or wrong. You can obey or disobey. You can run from Christ or run to Christ. You can choose to become a faithful Christian or an unfaithful Christian. You can cry, cuss, and spit, or laugh, sing, and dance. You can read a novel or the Bible. You can watch television or pray. You're free...really free."
Steve Brown, A Scandalous Freedom ... ❝...and then come and stand before Me in this house which is called
by My name, and say, ‘We are delivered to do all these abominations’?❞ - Jeremiah 7:10
❝What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!❞ - Romans 6:15
❝But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin,
yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered.❞ - Romans 6:17Exactly letters . exactly .
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Post by 2fw8212a on Sept 5, 2020 12:42:31 GMT -5
This all shows how true this is:
❝Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.❞ - Matthew 24:11-12
Indeed, is what those false grace doctrines teach.
They make the love of people to grow cold toward one another and the Lord.
❝Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.❞ - Isaiah 1:9
❝Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.❞ - Romans 11:5
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Sept 5, 2020 13:09:56 GMT -5
This all shows how true this is:
❝Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many.
And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold.❞ - Matthew 24:11-12
Indeed, is what those false grace doctrines teach.
They make the love of people to grow cold toward one another and the Lord.
❝Unless the Lord of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.❞ - Isaiah 1:9
❝Even so then, at this present time there is a remnant according to the election of grace.❞ - Romans 11:5 So true. If I act however I want and sin against my husband, love cools fairly quickly. If I act in true Christian love and righteousness, our relationship thrives. Where there is no order and fear of the Lord, no true unity or love can prosper.
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Post by watchful on Sept 5, 2020 14:14:26 GMT -5
In truth, our salvation is faith plus nothing. Bear with me for a minute while I explain.
There is no question that the New Testament is full of exhortations for us to DO. Do we remember however how Jesus responded when He was asked "What must we do that we might work the works of God?" He responded "Believe on Him who He has sent."
Everything God expects from us comes because of faith. Yes, we are born again by faith but then is it up to us to do the rest? No! We are called to put off the old man by faith and put on our new nature. Our old nature is the real source of our disobedience and it is our getting free of its grip is what gives us the power to obey, not by our efforts but by God's efforts causing us to obey.! It we have not done this, if we are led to believe that somehow a part of our salvation is not of grace but depends upon our efforts, it is simply a matter of time before the storm will get so intense that we realize we cannot obey as God desires. Why? Our foundation is mixed, part God's grace and part our effort. Self has not been taken out of the equation.
Look, I understand the error of those who espouse "faith plus nothing". But they err not in their words. They err in thinking faith is a one-time static prayer, once uttered by us. We say a prayer, and boom, they assume we are saved no matter what. Faith is a living relationship, and is our "umbilical cord" to God. It is meant to grow, and all things God wants for us and from us is to grow out of that growing faith. We do not get saved by faith and then are told, "Now hold on tight. Obey implicitly. Your salvation depends upon how earnest and sincere and dedicated you are.". That is not good news for those who are weak. Those who are strong think they are fine, that they are pleasing God by their efforts to obey Him, but in reality they are fighting against grace, and not for it, and robbing themselves of the rest God has for us where we finally can cease from our own efforts in trying to obey God.
These I refer to believe that once you say the prayer of faith, God sees you are righteous, as perfect, as holy, and no matter what you do, how you live, even whether or not you repent, nothing will cause to to lose your salvation. I spent many of my posts at Worthy fighting this error.
With that said, there is a reflex reaction error cropping up in the church and that is that faith only can stretch so far and that although we are saved totally by faith, it is up to us to "stay saved" by our obedience. It sounds so logical, so reasonable, for there are many references to our need to heed, to obey, to watch, to DO. And that brings us to the core issue. Who is doing the doing?? Is it us, with our weak flesh mucking up our attempts to obey all the time, or is it Christ in us causing us to obey Him.
I have met many who have never heard that God can actually cause us to walk obediently. Some ridicule the thought, saying that God does not make us robots. Of course that is true.... but.... what if He gave us brand new natures, natures that loved good, with no propensity to drift towards evil, towards disobedience? What if, despite the fact we still have fleshly bodies, those bodies are ruled by godly natures, new natures, where God is no longer with us, but IN us, causing us to make the right choices when temptations come?
Tabitha, that is exactly what God has done, and yet, for nineteen hundred years, satan has succeeded in blinding the church to this wonderful 'narrow way". For much of protestant history, the church held to the need for obedience, and yet, life did not flow like a river. And of late, this new teaching that turns the grace of God into a license to sin has crept in, deceiving many. As a result, the obvious recoil reaction is to fight against it by espousing our need to OBEY. There is one small problem. We can't, as long as our old nature still exists.
The dangers of the "You must obey to remain saved" are:
1) Self confidence will result is some limited successes and result in a form of pride that looks down on any not obeying ,judging them to be destined for hell. This robs God of the glory of bring us from disobedience to obedience, He is the potter, not us. He changes us. He sanctifies us, He brings about obedience in our walks, not us.
2) Those following this truth will be ill prepared when the coming storm hits. It is possible to obey when in times of relative peace, leading people to a deeper confidence they can whether any storm. Like Peter, they will declare with confidence that they will never deny Jesus, and we all know how that turned out. LOL.
There is no question that it is a good thing to want to obey God. But following it to its natural conclusion will land us smack dab in the midst of Paul's Romans 7 dilemma. It is here, when we finally arrive at our breaking point, admitting we need God to deliver us from US, from our natures that have a limit as to how far we will carry our obedience, that the miracle of grace is finally seen. It is when we conclude in brokenness that despite our desire to obey Him in all things that we cannot do so, we are ready to awake to righteousness by putting off our old natures by faith. We finally see the real enemy is our carnal nature that cannot obey, cannot love others as we love ourselves, cannot love God with ALL of our hearts.
God asks that our foundation is faith alone, faith plus nothing. He has given us new natures that He can CAUSE obedience to come forth. But.... we must first put them on. And to do that, we must finally put off our old ones, concluding that unless God does it in us, we are doomed to fail at some point,
God causing us to obey Him is one of the main benefits of our birthright, but at present, saints on both sides of the argument have not seen it in its glory. All that is about to change. We who are God's elect are even now being awakened to how deep grace really goes. God did not save us and then tell us to man up and try hard. That is not good news for the weak. It is good news for those confident in themselves and their dedication, No, real grace not only forgives us but changes us causing us to walk as His obedient children.
Where is such an amazing promise found in scripture, where God tells us He will cause us to obey His voice? Here it is....
“‘Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean; from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you and a new spirit will I put within you; and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and CAUSE you to walk in My statutes, and ye SHALL keep My judgments and do them."
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Glory to God!
blessings,
Gideon Hi Gideon
I believe God does enable you to walk. But you do have to be trying to walk for Him to enable you. God didn't enable my total obedience until I was actively surrendering my whole life to Him.
I'm not advocating self-effort. I'm saying God can tell when we actually want to be obedient. Striving for that obedience gets our hearts ready to receive God's Spirit.
Yes, striving.
How can you know you need God's help to rid yourself of sin if you never try to resist it?
I got the gift of obedience by total dependence on God for my day. I would ask God, "What should I do right now, Lord?" Or "Lord, what next?"
This wasn't effortless but I found I didn't have time to sin. I surrendered my will and submitted it to Christ.
Then, I got the fruit.
It's not about trying super hard with no dependence on God. We must strive to learn His will for us and walk in that.
Its not about slapping your own wrist but having the attitude of whatever the Lord wants is what I want, then going after that wholeheartedly.
It's not that my own on obedience saved me but I had to seek the Lord wholeheartedly. And that looks just like a person actively getting rid of sin in their life. And not just getting rid of sin but launching those baby legs towards righteousness.
Bless you sister, you are doing well.....we are to keep resisting and striving against sin. And as we keep following Jesus with our whole heart, and keep growing up in Him, He will lead us home. We're on a pilgrimage to enter the land of Promise. I take it that what Gideon is talking about has to do with this: Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands. Phl 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform (accomplish, perfect, complete) it until the day of Jesus Christ Heb 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher ( perfector!) of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God. And Jesus is the cornerstone of the foundation as well as the capstone (topstone...finishing stone) of our faith. Oh I love these verses...bring us there Lord!
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Post by John on Sept 5, 2020 21:19:24 GMT -5
I am going to come out and say something that will certainly be rejected by many, but if we believe the Bible, it is true. The phrase, "faith plus nothing," is not true in any way, shape or form. It is not faith plus nothing. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. If that is true, faith plus nothing has to be a lie. James is telling us it is faith plus works. We can go about trying to explain what that means and how that works, but when you hear anyone say, "Faith plus nothing," they are wrong. It sounds good, like you are the ones truly following the Lord and trusting in the finished work of the cross, but it is not so. If you allow yourself to accept this lie, it will only lead to more error.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2020 22:27:10 GMT -5
I am going to come out and say something that will certainly be rejected by many, but if we believe the Bible, it is true. The phrase, "faith plus nothing," is not true in any way, shape or form. It is not faith plus nothing. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. If that is true, faith plus nothing has to be a lie. James is telling us it is faith plus works. We can go about trying to explain what that means and how that works, but when you hear anyone say, "Faith plus nothing," they are wrong. It sounds good, like you are the ones truly following the Lord and trusting in the finished work of the cross, but it is not so. If you allow yourself to accept this lie, it will only lead to more error.
I guess a way to say it, is that if someone declares to have true biblical faith there will be works that will follow, for it produces works, it is not absent of works. Now of course the bible says these 2 things: Eph 2:8-9 (8) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast. Jas 2:18 (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. The works part is not for the sake of salvation, but rather it is an evidence of your faith, but it is a specific type of work, and not just good works themselves. If you have placed your faith in God, God will do a work in you, which will produce fruit, and will result in works. But the works that will come out of you, comes as a result of you surrendering yourself to God, and allowing God to change you, which will produce a desire to follow God and being a doer of the word. Faith produces works, but it produces works that has come as a result of a changed life in Christ.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2020 22:54:55 GMT -5
Gal 5:22-23 (22) But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, (23) Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Yes we choose to follow and obey Christ, that is for sure, and in having Christ in you, he will change you, and the works that you do, will flow along with the fruit of the Spirit.
And in the fruit such as goodness, love and so on, it will produce works in one form or another.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2020 22:59:48 GMT -5
It is never works for the sake of works, for the bible also says this:
1Co 13:3 (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
So works all by themselves is no evidence of faith, but if it is mixed in with the true biblical love of God, working through a believer, than a true work of God can be manifested in some shape or form.
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Post by Giller on Sept 5, 2020 23:03:36 GMT -5
If the focus it just simply on works for the sake of works, and not on the whole counsel of the word, then all what will be produced in the person, is not dependence upon God, or trust in God, nor loving obedience towards God, but rather it will produce pride, self centered obedience, merits obedience, and such like things.
It will not produce the character of God in you.
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Post by watchful on Sept 6, 2020 6:09:22 GMT -5
I am going to come out and say something that will certainly be rejected by many, but if we believe the Bible, it is true. The phrase, "faith plus nothing," is not true in any way, shape or form. It is not faith plus nothing. The Bible says that faith without works is dead. If that is true, faith plus nothing has to be a lie. James is telling us it is faith plus works. We can go about trying to explain what that means and how that works, but when you hear anyone say, "Faith plus nothing," they are wrong. It sounds good, like you are the ones truly following the Lord and trusting in the finished work of the cross, but it is not so. If you allow yourself to accept this lie, it will only lead to more error.
I don't agree with the OSAS doctrine or the faith plus nothing mantra either brother. Amen to that. And I don't think Gideon does either. He is reminding that we initially are saved through faith plus nothing....the moment of salvation is through faith alone, faith in Christ. That I agree with, and hope everyone does. We are saved without works, as the bible says. Initially. But then after that of course we have a walk to walk and a race to run and need to "work" out our salvation.
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Post by watchful on Sept 6, 2020 6:22:17 GMT -5
If the focus it just simply on works for the sake of works, and not on the whole counsel of the word, then all what will be produced in the person, is not dependence upon God, or trust in God, nor loving obedience towards God, but rather it will produce pride, self centered obedience, merits obedience, and such like things. It will not produce the character of God in you. Amen to what you're posting Giller. We need to have our eyes on Jesus more than on ourselves and our flaws or successes. And I will just mention that our offering is accepted based on what we have, not on what we don't yet have. This is something we grow in. Our offering may not be perfect but God looks on the heart and He is looking for our hearts to be perfect towards Him, ie wholehearted. If we are wholehearted but not yet perfect in what we offer Him in the way of works, then we will go on and grow more. He wants our best at whatever stage of growth we are at, out of whatever measure we do have at the time. For example He doesn't ask of children what He would ask or expect of a fully matured saint, in the sense that He doesnt' judge them the same. Looking at Cornelius in the book of Acts who wasn't even saved yet, but He feared God and gave alms (out of sincerity, not self righteousness), and it attracted the Lord to show him His salvation. Cornelius did what He could and then the Lord gave Him more.
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Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2020 6:59:15 GMT -5
It is never works for the sake of works, for the bible also says this: 1Co 13:3 (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. So works all by themselves is no evidence of faith, but if it is mixed in with the true biblical love of God, working through a believer, than a true work of God can be manifested in some shape or form. I want us to look real closely at that statement . For true love comes From God . We have the nastiest lie yet fast at work in the world and in many churches even . And the lie that leadeth to perdition is flowing in . For this lie says , that if one has good works , it matters NOT if they confess JESUS , they somehow know him and are saved . Its called inclusivism and yah , it came from ROME . The lie is saying that muslims that do good , or athiest who are doing good works , or any other religoin doing good works and having this love and unity towards one another are already in Christ . ITS A LIE from hell . For what does the TRUE GOD , the TRUE FATHER draw us to . OR i should say WHO . JESUS CHRIST . BUT WHOM do ye say i am peter .......YOU are the MESSIAH , the Christ , BLESSED are you simeon , flesh and blood did not , cause it cannot , reveal this unto you . BUT MY FATHER IN HEAVEN . THAT is who GOD draws us to . TO FAITH IN JESUS . NOT to good works and unity for world peace . But you all would be marveling if we knew the true numbers of those even within said Christendom that are now headed right into this lie , correction , THE LIE that leadeth to perdtion . No doubt in my mind who started that lie . SATAN aka the serpent . FOR HE is the one who leadeth into captivity and HE is the one who lets not go the prisoners . AND this is why he brought in the all in clusive lie . FOR as JESUS once told the jews , I said YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS FOR IF YE believe NOT that I AM HE , YE shall die in your sins . That inclusive lie , Was born of the theif and robber satan himself and given unto his own daughter ROME to flood into the world .
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Post by frienduff on Sept 6, 2020 7:11:00 GMT -5
If the focus it just simply on works for the sake of works, and not on the whole counsel of the word, then all what will be produced in the person, is not dependence upon God, or trust in God, nor loving obedience towards God, but rather it will produce pride, self centered obedience, merits obedience, and such like things. It will not produce the character of God in you. Here is a real simple summation . Faith without works is truly a dead false faith . But all the works with OUT FAITH , having confessed JESUS as LORD , IS DEAD as DEATH ITSELF . There simply is no other way to be saved , to know GOD peroid , but THROUGH THE SON . And is faith tied into works . YES IT IS . We know james made it very clear . But i tell us all so did paul . But if any will not provide , A DOING ACTION , for those of the faith , specially for those of his own household . HE has DENIED THE FAITH . THE FAITH . DENIED IT and IS WORSE than an infidel . Paul didnt sugar coat a thing , None of them did . When it came to sin and error , THEY SAW it as HIGHLY HIGHLY and i do mean HIGHLY dangerous . We need to get to that point . For GOD will not be mocked . Whatsoever a man sows to , that shall HE REAP . HE who sows to the flesh , aka SINS , will reap destruction , corruption . HE who sows TO THE SPIRIT , aka , OBEYS THE SPIRIT , will reap LIFE EVERLASTING . For who we serve is whose we are . whether of sin unto death or of obediance unto righteousness . Well, we are sure closing in fast unto the climatic end of it all . And what i say to one , i say to all , KEEP those garments unspotted from the world , lest ye walk naked and your shame be seen . Watch lest that day overtakes one as a thief . And let no man , woman , child or even donkey take that filthy shot they about to offer up . Nor any other said like evil as in chips or tattoes or etc and be tied into such a dire wicked system . Its all heading right to Exactly WHERE JESUS , teh apostels and prophets said concerning the last days . And RIGHT FAST TOO i might add .
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Post by watchful on Sept 6, 2020 10:32:39 GMT -5
It is never works for the sake of works, for the bible also says this: 1Co 13:3 (3) And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing. So works all by themselves is no evidence of faith, but if it is mixed in with the true biblical love of God, working through a believer, than a true work of God can be manifested in some shape or form. I want us to look real closely at that statement . For true love comes From God . We have the nastiest lie yet fast at work in the world and in many churches even . And the lie that leadeth to perdition is flowing in . For this lie says , that if one has good works , it matters NOT if they confess JESUS , they somehow know him and are saved . Its called inclusivism and yah , it came from ROME . The lie is saying that muslims that do good , or athiest who are doing good works , or any other religoin doing good works and having this love and unity towards one another are already in Christ . ITS A LIE from hell . For what does the TRUE GOD , the TRUE FATHER draw us to . OR i should say WHO . JESUS CHRIST . BUT WHOM do ye say i am peter .......YOU are the MESSIAH , the Christ , BLESSED are you simeon , flesh and blood did not , cause it cannot , reveal this unto you . BUT MY FATHER IN HEAVEN . THAT is who GOD draws us to . TO FAITH IN JESUS . NOT to good works and unity for world peace . But you all would be marveling if we knew the true numbers of those even within said Christendom that are now headed right into this lie , correction , THE LIE that leadeth to perdtion . No doubt in my mind who started that lie . SATAN aka the serpent . FOR HE is the one who leadeth into captivity and HE is the one who lets not go the prisoners . AND this is why he brought in the all in clusive lie . FOR as JESUS once told the jews , I said YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS FOR IF YE believe NOT that I AM HE , YE shall die in your sins . That inclusive lie , Was born of the theif and robber satan himself and given unto his own daughter ROME to flood into the world . In all our getting get wisdom. I am not disagreeing with your post at all brother, so please dont misunderstand, this isn't addressing what you are saying about the interfaith lie etc.....but since charity/love was mentioned, I just want to mention that we must not forget mercy. Charity is also merciful....it keeps no record of wrongs. Let our conversation be full of grace and seasoned with salt, not full of salt (Lot's wife) and only seasoned with grace. John the Baptist/Spirit of Elijah said he must decrease and Christ must increase. Was John wrong? No, but he was full of the Law while Jesus was full of grace and truth. (And this seems to be a picture of how we grow, as well...it's like we get trained up and tutored under the Law at the first.) Just wanted to plunk that into the pot.
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Post by John on Sept 6, 2020 10:54:02 GMT -5
I want us to look real closely at that statement . For true love comes From God . We have the nastiest lie yet fast at work in the world and in many churches even . And the lie that leadeth to perdition is flowing in . For this lie says , that if one has good works , it matters NOT if they confess JESUS , they somehow know him and are saved . Its called inclusivism and yah , it came from ROME . The lie is saying that muslims that do good , or athiest who are doing good works , or any other religoin doing good works and having this love and unity towards one another are already in Christ . ITS A LIE from hell . For what does the TRUE GOD , the TRUE FATHER draw us to . OR i should say WHO . JESUS CHRIST . BUT WHOM do ye say i am peter .......YOU are the MESSIAH , the Christ , BLESSED are you simeon , flesh and blood did not , cause it cannot , reveal this unto you . BUT MY FATHER IN HEAVEN . THAT is who GOD draws us to . TO FAITH IN JESUS . NOT to good works and unity for world peace . But you all would be marveling if we knew the true numbers of those even within said Christendom that are now headed right into this lie , correction , THE LIE that leadeth to perdtion . No doubt in my mind who started that lie . SATAN aka the serpent . FOR HE is the one who leadeth into captivity and HE is the one who lets not go the prisoners . AND this is why he brought in the all in clusive lie . FOR as JESUS once told the jews , I said YE SHALL DIE IN YOUR SINS FOR IF YE believe NOT that I AM HE , YE shall die in your sins . That inclusive lie , Was born of the theif and robber satan himself and given unto his own daughter ROME to flood into the world . In all our getting get wisdom. I am not disagreeing with your post at all brother, so please dont misunderstand, this isn't addressing what you are saying about the interfaith lie etc.....but since charity/love was mentioned, I just want to mention that we must not forget mercy. Charity is also merciful....it keeps no record of wrongs. Let our conversation be full of grace and seasoned with salt, not full of salt (Lot's wife) and only seasoned with grace. John the Baptist/Spirit of Elijah said he must decrease and Christ must increase. Was John wrong? No, but he was full of the Law while Jesus was full of grace and truth. (And this seems to be a picture of how we grow, as well...it's like we get trained up and tutored under the Law at the first.) Just wanted to plunk that into the pot. One thing about this. Jesus Christ is the one who will judge us all in the end, so it is not up to us to show mercy when it comes to who enters heaven and who enters hell. We are simply to teach the things in the Bible, as written. If Jesus Christ sees a person's heart, and determines they should enter heaven, they will. It is not my place to offer people assurance or hope they can do things that are not right and still make it because God has not finished with them yet. I am just to give the message straight as the Bible says. If that makes them fearful, the Bible says we are to work out our own salvation with fear and trembling, so that is a good thing. That may be what it takes to bring them to true repentance. The only kind of grace I can offer people is within what authority I have, not authority I do not have, and only Jesus Christ will say who enters heaven and has an inheritance there.
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