PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 6, 2020 20:37:20 GMT -5
For the moment, I’ll just go on record saying I reject the doctrine of original sin. We inherit a human nature that’s difficult to control, but we don’t inherit guilt. There isn’t a sin charge put on our account the day we’re born. The Bible clearly says children are not held guilty for the sins of ancestors. Original sin was not taught in the early church.
Babies enter the womb with knowledge of God and the spirit world. Even secular psychiatrists have seen in studies that babies know God. Atheist parents, Buddhist, doesn’t matter, their children see the spirit world. Children must be taught atheism.
Best as I can tell, a soul in the womb loves his creator. After birth, it takes a while for the Adamic flesh to deaden the soul. It doesn’t seem to me that a soul is instantly contaminated by entering a human body. Human nature deadens it through attrition. Toddlers who are still full of God’s love and joy are not spiritually dead. When sin and unbelief enter through life experience, that’s when the person dies inside.
This lines up with Romans 1. Humans are born with knowledge of God, and the universe reinforces this knowledge, but over time humans go astray. Most of us have seen the transition in a child from youthful joy to sinful nature. That’s when spiritual death happens. Before this, unintended naughty behavior is covered by Jesus on their behalf. But as the child matures, and he rejects his creator, he cuts himself off.
This is why Jesus said lest “a man” be born again.
I could give more details, but I don’t know if this makes sense.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 6, 2020 21:14:24 GMT -5
Yep and as candance and all of us do know , all other gods are false . Budda no save anyone . Yeah , i only said it cause i seen Buddhist . But i KNOW sister candance already knows
all them other paths and religoins are false . Just had to say it anyway .
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Cletus
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Posts: 2,517
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Post by Cletus on Oct 6, 2020 23:17:03 GMT -5
For the moment, I’ll just go on record saying I reject the doctrine of original sin. We inherit a human nature that’s difficult to control, but we don’t inherit guilt. There isn’t a sin charge put on our account the day we’re born. The Bible clearly says children are not held guilty for the sins of ancestors. Original sin was not taught in the early church. Babies enter the womb with knowledge of God and the spirit world. Even secular psychiatrists have seen in studies that babies know God. Atheist parents, Buddhist, doesn’t matter, their children see the spirit world. Children must be taught atheism. Best as I can tell, a soul in the womb loves his creator. After birth, it takes a while for the Adamic flesh to deaden the soul. It doesn’t seem to me that a soul is instantly contaminated by entering a human body. Human nature deadens it through attrition. Toddlers who are still full of God’s love and joy are not spiritually dead. When sin and unbelief enter through life experience, that’s when the person dies inside. This lines up with Romans 1. Humans are born with knowledge of God, and the universe reinforces this knowledge, but over time humans go astray. Most of us have seen the transition in a child from youthful joy to sinful nature. That’s when spiritual death happens. Before this, unintended naughty behavior is covered by Jesus on their behalf. But as the child matures, and he rejects his creator, he cuts himself off. This is why Jesus said lest “a man” be born again. I could give more details, but I don’t know if this makes sense. yeah... so uhm, do you think you could indulge me a bit and define the doctrine of original sin? i am not learned in different doctrine titles and what all they cover and dont, and i did google it. results came back thick with a bunch of catholic stuff, book of esdras which is not in my kjv but they said it was a book out of the bible, and st. augustine. good night to that. I would rather get my knowledge from Christians.
here is a scripture to back up your words:
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 1:19:52 GMT -5
For the moment, I’ll just go on record saying I reject the doctrine of original sin. We inherit a human nature that’s difficult to control, but we don’t inherit guilt. There isn’t a sin charge put on our account the day we’re born. The Bible clearly says children are not held guilty for the sins of ancestors. Original sin was not taught in the early church. Babies enter the womb with knowledge of God and the spirit world. Even secular psychiatrists have seen in studies that babies know God. Atheist parents, Buddhist, doesn’t matter, their children see the spirit world. Children must be taught atheism. Best as I can tell, a soul in the womb loves his creator. After birth, it takes a while for the Adamic flesh to deaden the soul. It doesn’t seem to me that a soul is instantly contaminated by entering a human body. Human nature deadens it through attrition. Toddlers who are still full of God’s love and joy are not spiritually dead. When sin and unbelief enter through life experience, that’s when the person dies inside. This lines up with Romans 1. Humans are born with knowledge of God, and the universe reinforces this knowledge, but over time humans go astray. Most of us have seen the transition in a child from youthful joy to sinful nature. That’s when spiritual death happens. Before this, unintended naughty behavior is covered by Jesus on their behalf. But as the child matures, and he rejects his creator, he cuts himself off. This is why Jesus said lest “a man” be born again. I could give more details, but I don’t know if this makes sense.
Thank you for explaining this. I do believe in the doctrine of original sin, and that explains why I am more open to the idea that children are unclean with sin stains at birth, where you do not. I see the whole human race as needing a savior, not because of the sins we commit as individuals, but because of Adam's sin. If we never did anything wrong our entire lives, I would believe we were hell bound if we did not accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior because of original sin. It makes no sense to me to think that we are not unclean through original sin, when we are under the curses which include physical death, because of original sin. If there is no original sin passed on to us, in theory, if a man or woman were to live a sinless life, they would not need a redeemer to make it to heaven.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 7:17:34 GMT -5
Cletus it's like this. For 300 years, the early church taught that Adam's curse brought defective natures and ultimate death to our physical bodies. Your soul doesn't "die" when your body dies, it simply goes to a more permanent place of existence. The only thing Adam's curse necessarily kills is your body. Your soul is created by God and then deposited into a human body. It isn't having a body that defiles you; it's your eventual choice to become an ordinary human. As you outgrow the joyful innocence of your toddler years, your senses grow dull. Human souls aren't strong enough to resist Adam's nature for long. Gnostic ideology, which the early church battled, said that mere contact with the physical world was enough to defile a soul. They were the philosophers in Colosse telling Christians to avoid touching all sorts of things. Paul refutes them by saying we're not defiled by the elemental world. Based on their thoughts about the physical body, gnostics said the Son of God would never have come as a human. Christian gnostics got around this by saying Jesus must have been a ghost or something all along (today they would likely say He was a hologram). This was the teaching John refuted in his letters (Jesus Christ is come in the flesh), and it's why John's gospel emphasized the disciples having literal physical interaction with Jesus after the resurrection. One branch of gnosticism was called Manichaeism. It taught that good and evil were basically the spirit world vs the physical world. All that is spirit is light, and all that is physical is death. Augustine was in this cult for 10 years. Then he supposedly became a Christian. And what did he do? He started teaching that human bodies defile souls. To wedge this teaching into the Bible, he latched on to Adam's curse, and voila, Adam's curse became original sin. His peers tried to warn him that this was a strange new teaching the apostles never approved. But he was a brilliant philosopher who wrote books to spread his ideas. His influence also moved the church toward military aggression. Original sin became so dominant in Catholic Churches that they baptized newborn babies as soon as possible so the baby would make heaven if it died. This was one thing Martin Luther tried to get rid of. Guess who was a fanboy of Augustine? John Calvin. The whole idea of preprogrammed predestination, fatalism, doomed from the womb, etc, was John Calvin's invention on the heels of his hero Augustine. John Calvin turned medieval Geneva into a death cult the likes of which we scarce imagine. Calvin's Geneva made the Branch Davidians look like a joke. He murdered his opponents in cold blood because they were "doomed to hell" anyway. Despite the evidence of knowing it wasn't in the early church, knowing it came from a gnostic cult, and knowing the fruit it bore in Geneva, we are still battling this ideology today. Even many Pentecostal churches have accidentally picked up some of the ideas.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 7:29:28 GMT -5
Let me just add that I'm not battling John personally on this. John is a brother who loves the Lord. He's doing his best to make sense of big ideas, and I truly admire his zeal for knowledge. No matter if I succeed in changing John's mind or not, I won't be mad at him.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 8:10:18 GMT -5
For the moment, I’ll just go on record saying I reject the doctrine of original sin. We inherit a human nature that’s difficult to control, but we don’t inherit guilt. There isn’t a sin charge put on our account the day we’re born. The Bible clearly says children are not held guilty for the sins of ancestors. Original sin was not taught in the early church. Babies enter the womb with knowledge of God and the spirit world. Even secular psychiatrists have seen in studies that babies know God. Atheist parents, Buddhist, doesn’t matter, their children see the spirit world. Children must be taught atheism. Best as I can tell, a soul in the womb loves his creator. After birth, it takes a while for the Adamic flesh to deaden the soul. It doesn’t seem to me that a soul is instantly contaminated by entering a human body. Human nature deadens it through attrition. Toddlers who are still full of God’s love and joy are not spiritually dead. When sin and unbelief enter through life experience, that’s when the person dies inside. This lines up with Romans 1. Humans are born with knowledge of God, and the universe reinforces this knowledge, but over time humans go astray. Most of us have seen the transition in a child from youthful joy to sinful nature. That’s when spiritual death happens. Before this, unintended naughty behavior is covered by Jesus on their behalf. But as the child matures, and he rejects his creator, he cuts himself off. This is why Jesus said lest “a man” be born again. I could give more details, but I don’t know if this makes sense.
Thank you for explaining this. I do believe in the doctrine of original sin, and that explains why I am more open to the idea that children are unclean with sin stains at birth, where you do not. I see the whole human race as needing a savior, not because of the sins we commit as individuals, but because of Adam's sin. If we never did anything wrong our entire lives, I would believe we were hell bound if we did not accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior because of original sin. It makes no sense to me to think that we are not unclean through original sin, when we are under the curses which include physical death, because of original sin. If there is no original sin passed on to us, in theory, if a man or woman were to live a sinless life, they would not need a redeemer to make it to heaven.
John ponder this . What you are asking is a scenario . I mean the bible clearly says all have sinned . So there is no need to even try and think up a scenario like if a person never sinned . Because all do .
There is no IF we never did anything wrong . Every one simply sins . Sin is simply dis obediance . its anything contrary to the law of our Holy GOD .
The thing is infants and toddlers and such and perhaps children to whatever , sin in a state of total ignorance . There senses are not yet fully discernable in nature to even discern what is all right or wrong .
I wont even begin to worry about an age . I would just teach them from the womb to tomb to believe in JESUS and teach them right from wrong and keep disciplining them if and when they do err .
But my friend everyone has sinned . And there is no scenario where one will not have sinned . Cept JESUS as we all know . AND NOW IN HIM we have the power to overcome the evil .
Sadly even christains err , but and when they do its called confess and forsake , aka repent . I just love what the one said in the bible , I DO not concern myself in matters to high for me .
I say we just leave some of this stuff alone . Cause in the end , no one here really knows the age or etc . This is something i dont even feel comfy explaining , cause , well i not be fully right on everything i have stated earlier or not .
So its just better we leave this topic alone .
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 8:19:16 GMT -5
Cletus it's like this. For 300 years, the early church taught that Adam's curse brought defective natures and ultimate death to our physical bodies. Your soul doesn't "die" when your body dies, it simply goes to a more permanent place of existence. The only thing Adam's curse necessarily kills is your body. Your soul is created by God and then deposited into a human body. It isn't having a body that defiles you; it's your eventual choice to become an ordinary human. As you outgrow the joyful innocence of your toddler years, your senses grow dull. Human souls aren't strong enough to resist Adam's nature for long. Gnostic ideology, which the early church battled, said that mere contact with the physical world was enough to defile a soul. They were the philosophers in Colosse telling Christians to avoid touching all sorts of things. Paul refutes them by saying we're not defiled by the elemental world. Based on their thoughts about the physical body, gnostics said the Son of God would never have come as a human. Christian gnostics got around this by saying Jesus must have been a ghost or something all along (today they would likely say He was a hologram). This was the teaching John refuted in his letters (Jesus Christ is come in the flesh), and it's why John's gospel emphasized the disciples having literal physical interaction with Jesus after the resurrection. One branch of gnosticism was called Manichaeism. It taught that good and evil were basically the spirit world vs the physical world. All that is spirit is light, and all that is physical is death. Augustine was in this cult for 10 years. Then he supposedly became a Christian. And what did he do? He started teaching that human bodies defile souls. To wedge this teaching into the Bible, he latched on to Adam's curse, and voila, Adam's curse became original sin. His peers tried to warn him that this was a strange new teaching the apostles never approved. But he was a brilliant philosopher who wrote books to spread his ideas. His influence also moved the church toward military aggression. Original sin became so dominant in Catholic Churches that they baptized newborn babies as soon as possible so the baby would make heaven if it died. This was one thing Martin Luther tried to get rid of. Guess who was a fanboy of Augustine? John Calvin. The whole idea of preprogrammed predestination, fatalism, doomed from the womb, etc, was John Calvin's invention on the heels of his hero Augustine. John Calvin turned medieval Geneva into a death cult the likes of which we scarce imagine. Calvin's Geneva made the Branch Davidians look like a joke. He murdered his opponents in cold blood because they were "doomed to hell" anyway. Despite the evidence of knowing it wasn't in the early church, knowing it came from a gnostic cult, and knowing the fruit it bore in Geneva, we are still battling this ideology today. Even many Pentecostal churches have accidentally picked up some of the ideas. Yep . and see what all that higher thinking and philosophical carnal understanding truly does , it destroys . I would not heed augustine period . This is why even now i dont feel comfortable trying to explain this . Its simply better we teach our children the right ways of the LORD , Pointing them continously to Christ and that we ourselves do not try and overcomplicate anything . All we really need to know is , The world needs JESUS , as we do too . And that all have sinned . And not to follow augustine or rome at all . Or calvin . I dont say anything to be mean to anyone , not john , not anyone . But truly its better we focus on exhorting one another with sound doctrine , in the bible, that we know is true and build one another up with that . I claim as the one man in the bible did , I do not concern myself in matters that are simply too high for me to understand . If GOD wants me to know something , HE has always revealed it in time . Oh , i know you dont follow none of them augustines and or those others you just spoke about . I truly do thank God , he never put that kind of interest in my heart , to learn all those men and all those church doctrines . Instead it was just a love for the bible . And the simplicity of that , has kept me FAT and HAPPY . They can keep all this five dispensations of grace , and original this or that . We got the LORD and we got the bible . We can learn from that . Cletus said it best , no interest in all that stuff . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 8:25:23 GMT -5
For the moment, I’ll just go on record saying I reject the doctrine of original sin. We inherit a human nature that’s difficult to control, but we don’t inherit guilt. There isn’t a sin charge put on our account the day we’re born. The Bible clearly says children are not held guilty for the sins of ancestors. Original sin was not taught in the early church. Babies enter the womb with knowledge of God and the spirit world. Even secular psychiatrists have seen in studies that babies know God. Atheist parents, Buddhist, doesn’t matter, their children see the spirit world. Children must be taught atheism. Best as I can tell, a soul in the womb loves his creator. After birth, it takes a while for the Adamic flesh to deaden the soul. It doesn’t seem to me that a soul is instantly contaminated by entering a human body. Human nature deadens it through attrition. Toddlers who are still full of God’s love and joy are not spiritually dead. When sin and unbelief enter through life experience, that’s when the person dies inside. This lines up with Romans 1. Humans are born with knowledge of God, and the universe reinforces this knowledge, but over time humans go astray. Most of us have seen the transition in a child from youthful joy to sinful nature. That’s when spiritual death happens. Before this, unintended naughty behavior is covered by Jesus on their behalf. But as the child matures, and he rejects his creator, he cuts himself off. This is why Jesus said lest “a man” be born again. I could give more details, but I don’t know if this makes sense. yeah... so uhm, do you think you could indulge me a bit and define the doctrine of original sin? i am not learned in different doctrine titles and what all they cover and dont, and i did google it. results came back thick with a bunch of catholic stuff, book of esdras which is not in my kjv but they said it was a book out of the bible, and st. augustine. good night to that. I would rather get my knowledge from Christians.
here is a scripture to back up your words:
Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Yep and since the book of esdras is not in the bible , you can rest assured i wont be a trusting in that book . Did you know i actually did read those seven books , not all the way through though . They always seemed to have mans wisdom in them . It was never the same for me as , when i read that bible . And i never had peace in those books . BUT I DO in that KJV BIBLE . I bet you know WHY that is my friend . Cause the bible IS HOLY SPIRIT INSPIRED truth . whereas the other books may have Had some truths , but they had mens wisdom in them as well and mans way of seeing things . Let all rejoice in the GLORIOUS LORD JESUS . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 8:28:48 GMT -5
I could smell just a whiff of rome in those other books . mans wisdom . Whoever put them in the catholic canon , must have known Something was up , cause they even called them Secondary .
See .
They knew something was different . They might have beleived it , but they knew something was different .
In the end , the GLORIOUS LORD got the bible worked out right for the peoples . The kjv is a beauty , and its a beauty that i cannot find in any other bible . Its full of pure truth
with no mixtures , no wisdom from men , no omitting of things and no adding in of things . ITS a beauty . A true treasure chest . LET THE LORD BE PRAISED MY FRIENDS .
AND let all SING to the KING .
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 8:40:42 GMT -5
Cletus it's like this. For 300 years, the early church taught that Adam's curse brought defective natures and ultimate death to our physical bodies. Your soul doesn't "die" when your body dies, it simply goes to a more permanent place of existence. The only thing Adam's curse necessarily kills is your body. Your soul is created by God and then deposited into a human body. It isn't having a body that defiles you; it's your eventual choice to become an ordinary human. As you outgrow the joyful innocence of your toddler years, your senses grow dull. Human souls aren't strong enough to resist Adam's nature for long. Gnostic ideology, which the early church battled, said that mere contact with the physical world was enough to defile a soul. They were the philosophers in Colosse telling Christians to avoid touching all sorts of things. Paul refutes them by saying we're not defiled by the elemental world. Based on their thoughts about the physical body, gnostics said the Son of God would never have come as a human. Christian gnostics got around this by saying Jesus must have been a ghost or something all along (today they would likely say He was a hologram). This was the teaching John refuted in his letters (Jesus Christ is come in the flesh), and it's why John's gospel emphasized the disciples having literal physical interaction with Jesus after the resurrection. One branch of gnosticism was called Manichaeism. It taught that good and evil were basically the spirit world vs the physical world. All that is spirit is light, and all that is physical is death. Augustine was in this cult for 10 years. Then he supposedly became a Christian. And what did he do? He started teaching that human bodies defile souls. To wedge this teaching into the Bible, he latched on to Adam's curse, and voila, Adam's curse became original sin. His peers tried to warn him that this was a strange new teaching the apostles never approved. But he was a brilliant philosopher who wrote books to spread his ideas. His influence also moved the church toward military aggression. Original sin became so dominant in Catholic Churches that they baptized newborn babies as soon as possible so the baby would make heaven if it died. This was one thing Martin Luther tried to get rid of. Guess who was a fanboy of Augustine? John Calvin. The whole idea of preprogrammed predestination, fatalism, doomed from the womb, etc, was John Calvin's invention on the heels of his hero Augustine. John Calvin turned medieval Geneva into a death cult the likes of which we scarce imagine. Calvin's Geneva made the Branch Davidians look like a joke. He murdered his opponents in cold blood because they were "doomed to hell" anyway. Despite the evidence of knowing it wasn't in the early church, knowing it came from a gnostic cult, and knowing the fruit it bore in Geneva, we are still battling this ideology today. Even many Pentecostal churches have accidentally picked up some of the ideas.
This is fascinating doctrine to me, and I appreciate you sharing it. Do not worry about whether I will agree or disagree with you. I do not see this as an essential doctrine to be saved or anything like that, but I do think it effects how we teach, and what we believe personally. So long as you are okay with continuing this discussion in this thread, I am fine with it, or we could even talk about it during our video discussions, or perhaps both ways. I do not wish this to become wearisome.
When someone is trying to prove a point, often times they will make claims like this doctrine originated here or there, or the early church did not believe something. Those are claims that are impossible to prove wrong, but in reality, they are also impossible to prove correct, as there are many revisionist historians. I do recognize much of the gnostic doctrines you mentioned from reading gnostic texts, which I know to be in serious error. The gnostic teachers were heretics.
I need to inject something here, not to discredit what you said, but because I see the similarities based on my understanding of Latter Day Saints doctrine. The idea that God deposits your soul into your body is something from Mormonism. The idea is there is this great number of souls in heaven, and they need a body. As a child is born, a new soul is taken from heaven and deposited into that body. In this teaching, at the moment of conception, the body does not have a soul, but at some point shortly thereafter, the soul is placed in the body. The soul was originally in heaven, so it knows things that cannot be revealed to those on earth, secret things. The soul knows it's beginning and it's ending, but God takes away that knowledge from the soul. The idea of depositing a soul into a body is very similar to this teaching, which I do not agree with. That is one reason why Mormons try to have so many children. They are trying to create bodies for already existing souls, and speed up the end. It probably has something to do with why they are into polygamy, because more wives mean more babies.
John Calvin taught a lot of error, and he did a lot of evil things in the name of his religion. He is nobody that I would ever want to be associated with. I have read his beliefs and find them wanting. That being said, I do believe in pre-destination and election, but not in the way Calvin does. Those words and teachings are in the Bible, but sadly, they are automatically discredited because everyone associates them with Calvin. What they are not doing is seeing how Calvin perverts them. Calvin, and those who teach Calvinism, always see themselves as among the elect. They believe in God, and what they see as the one true way, so naturally they must be the elect, and those who disagree are lost. I do not believe that at all. My belief is that only God knows who the elect are, and our actions do play into our eternal future. It is not based on whether we believe in God, but if we believe and continue in the faith. Our works play a role in this. That would be anathema to Calvin. It is also anathema to modern day Baptists who have perverted Calvin's doctrine even further by claiming that you decide your fate by choosing to believe, and once you do, you are locked in, where Calvin said it is 100 percent God's choice if you believe. Apparently, Baptists did not like the fact that God was choosing for us. They often times think that if you deny their perverted doctrine, you are preaching "another gospel," and are lost. It is funny how these false teachers try to scare people into believing their lies.
Back to the origins of original sin, I do not believe that we do know it's origins. I do not believe it is gnostic at all. The "fruit it bore in Geneva" proves nothing. People have always done wicked things in the name of religion. Their actions do not prove or disprove a doctrine. What I find when I read things like this is that a person read books about the origins of a doctrine, and they assume those books are accurate. You need to consider that the person has an agenda, and is trying to prove a point, so they will make all kind of claims. Not long ago, someone was trying to prove to me that their view of divorce and re-marriage was correct by giving me a book to read about it. The author claimed that the early church always believed as he did, and used about 4 or 5 examples of some extra-Biblical writings to prove it. All they proved was that these 4 or 5 authors believed that way, but that was extended to be the belief of the entire early church. In your case, you are suggesting that because gnostic writers may have been partially in agreement with something, that means it must be wrong. That is like suggesting that since the RCC believes in the virgin birth of Christ, that must be wrong, or that since Mormons are pro-life, that position must be wrong. We need to be careful about making such assumptions.
What I would be interested in finding out is the source for who made the claims that a belief in original sin was not in the early church, and how they know that is true. To me, this has nothing to do with a soul being deposited in a body. To me, when a child is conceived, it already has a soul. It does not need to have one deposited, so a pure soul is not defiled by an impure body. Again, if original sin is not true, and there is an age of accountability, a person could live perhaps a month after that age arrives, never sin, but never know Jesus as their Lord and Savior, but go to heaven because they never sinned and needed no savior. Yes, because sin is in the world, it is difficult not to sin, but not impossible, especially for a time. Many factors would be involved as to how difficult it would be for one person compared to another. If you can go an hour without sinning, and I know you can, you can go a lifetime without sinning and save yourself if what you are saying is true. This also takes away the need for the virgin birth, as one major reason this was necessary was because sin stain was passed on through Adam, our natural Father, but in the case of Jesus Christ, His Father is God, not Adam, so there was no original sin.
Anyway, I do find this an interesting topic of discussion. It is definitely thought provoking.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 8:47:50 GMT -5
Let me just add that I'm not battling John personally on this. John is a brother who loves the Lord. He's doing his best to make sense of big ideas, and I truly admire his zeal for knowledge. No matter if I succeed in changing John's mind or not, I won't be mad at him.
Thank you for that, and I enjoy discussions like this about Bible-based topics. As I have said, my main objective is to get at the truth. I doubt you will change my mind on this, as my beliefs in this area are pretty well established, but one never knows. In order to convince me that I am wrong on this, you will have to show me how this can be right when it does mean a person could save themselves without knowing Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior by avoiding sin till they die. A person could drop dead 2 seconds after they reach the age of accountability and never be saved, but never be lost either. This makes no logical sense to me in light of my understanding of the message of the gospel, and the necessity that we must believe in Jesus Christ to be saved. In your doctrine, salvation starts out based on your ability to abstain from sin, since Adam's sin does not effect you. That would be sins of the Father. Only after you sin do you need a Savior. To me, when the Bible says that we are not to punish children based on sins of the Father, it is dealing with punishments in this life, like killing the whole family for the sins of the Father. It has nothing to do with Adam's original sin, and it's effects on the human race.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 8:54:16 GMT -5
Thank you for explaining this. I do believe in the doctrine of original sin, and that explains why I am more open to the idea that children are unclean with sin stains at birth, where you do not. I see the whole human race as needing a savior, not because of the sins we commit as individuals, but because of Adam's sin. If we never did anything wrong our entire lives, I would believe we were hell bound if we did not accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior because of original sin. It makes no sense to me to think that we are not unclean through original sin, when we are under the curses which include physical death, because of original sin. If there is no original sin passed on to us, in theory, if a man or woman were to live a sinless life, they would not need a redeemer to make it to heaven.
John ponder this . What you are asking is a scenario . I mean the bible clearly says all have sinned . So there is no need to even try and think up a scenario like if a person never sinned . Because all do .
There is no IF we never did anything wrong . Every one simply sins . Sin is simply dis obediance . its anything contrary to the law of our Holy GOD .
The thing is infants and toddlers and such and perhaps children to whatever , sin in a state of total ignorance . There senses are not yet fully discernable in nature to even discern what is all right or wrong .
I wont even begin to worry about an age . I would just teach them from the womb to tomb to believe in JESUS and teach them right from wrong and keep disciplining them if and when they do err .
But my friend everyone has sinned . And there is no scenario where one will not have sinned . Cept JESUS as we all know . AND NOW IN HIM we have the power to overcome the evil .
Sadly even christains err , but and when they do its called confess and forsake , aka repent . I just love what the one said in the bible , I DO not concern myself in matters to high for me .
I say we just leave some of this stuff alone . Cause in the end , no one here really knows the age or etc . This is something i dont even feel comfy explaining , cause , well i not be fully right on everything i have stated earlier or not .
So its just better we leave this topic alone .
If children were clean because they did not reach an age of accountability, they have no sin and get a pass. They need no Savior. If you reach an age of accountability and die within seconds or minutes after reaching it, it is very possible you never sinned, so you saved yourself. That is why this doctrine does not work. On the other hand, if we are born into this world with original sin, and all need a Savior, then the idea that children who are unclean are sanctified by believing parents does make sense. Even if you cannot accept this possibility, and I am still open to it, there is no getting around the fact that if original sin is not charged to you, a person may die between reaching the age of accountability and having a chance to sin.
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Post by Tabitha3319 on Oct 7, 2020 10:05:41 GMT -5
This is an interesting topic. I had never thought to question the doctrine of original sin before.
I think verse like this one might be helpful.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
King James Version
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I don't know if little children get a free pass or not. But based on this verse and others, I do believe in original sin. The wages of sin is death and Adam and Eve committed the sin that brought death and curses to humanity.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 10:27:47 GMT -5
This is an interesting topic. I had never thought to question the doctrine of original sin before.
I think verse like this one might be helpful.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
King James Version
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I don't know if little children get a free pass or not. But based on this verse and others, I do believe in original sin. The wages of sin is death and Adam and Eve committed the sin that brought death and curses to humanity.
There is also Psalm 51:5. We do not need gnostic teachers or Esdres to believe in original sin.
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