PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 10:40:48 GMT -5
John you're not quite understanding my view of this. I don't say children are in a neutral state until they commit a willful sin. It's not that they have a blank slate. I'm saying their souls commune with God in the womb, spiritually alive, abiding in the love of Jesus their creator, until human life begins its war on them. Scripture says God knits us in the womb. He's there with us creating us. We know Him at that time. Luke said John the Baptist leapt when he heard Mary's voice in the womb. Babies are spiritually alive. They worship Jesus in the womb. But they lose that connection over time and grow hardened as human life takes its toll. Thus by the age of 3 or 4 they are already drifting toward sin. Their naughtiness can be waived for a while, but not forever. All who live long enough to make any sort of independent decision have sinned. It doesn't start that way, but the flesh wears us down.
Observe Romans 7. The flesh wages war on the Spirit, and our soul is caught in the crosshairs. It's unfair to make a caricature of this where a 13 year old drops dead the day after his birthday. I'm not talking about a legalistic deadline. I'm talking about spiritual death in childhood that must be reversed by regeneration. Notice it's called REgeneration. We were alive, then dead, then made alive forever in Christ. Just like the prodigal son. We must kill our human nature once and for all to exist as a human abiding in Christ.
Just because the Mormons have wacky ideas about an overcrowded heaven, that isn't an argument against my view.
I'm not the one who says original sin began with Augustine. That's what all of its proponents say. John MacArthur publicly admits his theology came by way of Augustine. Cletus himself said when you Google original sin you get Augustine. He is widely credited as the one who taught it -- and his writings do not appeal to any previous respectable Christian teachers, aside from random books like Edras. Augustine himself didn't even say it was "really" taught by men like Clement.
We know it came from Augustine's gnosticism because it was verbatim gnosticism. Human flesh bad -- contact with flesh bad -- souls live in flesh -- souls bad in the womb. That was his logic. You can literally see the stepping stones from gnosticism to original sin.
As for the fruit that grows from it, yes that matters. Imagine Christianity with no OSAS, no "stuck on sin" Christians who say they can't stop sinning, no LGBT churches because God made them that way, no Westborogh Baptists boycotting funerals, no violence in Christian lands because it's okay to kill lost people, and no massive falling away in Baptist churches where young Christians lose their faith because sin is unbreakable and God looks like a monster. We have Augustine to thank for all of this. He gladly takes the credit, and his disciples like John MacArthur openly say so.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 11:14:47 GMT -5
PG4Him , what you are believing is a highly developed doctrine someone came up with mixing scripture, church history and personal observations. I do not want to give a hasty reply to all of what you said in agreement or disagreement, so I will look it over carefully, as I carefully consider what you say in private conversations about spiritual matters before I answer. I do want to ask you a couple of follow up questions.
1. Do you believe all souls already exist in heaven and are waiting on a body? Why or why not?
2. Do you have scripture to support the doctrine that all unborn babies know and commune with God? I often use references like John the Baptist and Jacob and Esau to show the humanity of unborn babies, but I never went so far as to build a doctrine that they regularly commune with God from that. I also never saw where the Bible says a soul is dropped into the body and knows all kinds of things about spiritual matters and forgets them over time. What is this based upon other than observing children's behavior?
Thank you in advance and I will try to reply this evening.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 11:44:57 GMT -5
PG4Him , what you are believing is a highly developed doctrine someone came up with mixing scripture, church history and personal observations. I do not want to give a hasty reply to all of what you said in agreement or disagreement, so I will look it over carefully, as I carefully consider what you say in private conversations about spiritual matters before I answer. I do want to ask you a couple of follow up questions.
1. Do you believe all souls already exist in heaven and are waiting on a body? Why or why not?
2. Do you have scripture to support the doctrine that all unborn babies know and commune with God? I often use references like John the Baptist and Jacob and Esau to show the humanity of unborn babies, but I never went so far as to build a doctrine that they regularly commune with God from that. I also never saw where the Bible says a soul is dropped into the body and knows all kinds of things about spiritual matters and forgets them over time. What is this based upon other than observing children's behavior?
Thank you in advance and I will try to reply this evening.
1) Best I can tell, souls come into being in the womb. Life begins at conception. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb. I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well. My substance was not hid from thee, when I was made in secret, and curiously wrought in the lowest parts of the earth. Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them! If I should count them, they are more in number than the sand: when I awake, I am still with thee. -- Psalm 139:13-18
This clearly shows the baby covered by God's presence in the womb. Each part of the baby was written in His book ahead of time, before they existed. This process took place during the pregnancy, which suggests the baby's soul was breathed into life at that time and then knit into a body the Lord had already designed. The psalmist is saying his soul knows God's works because his soul is a product of God's works. 2) If you're using John the Baptist to say babies are conscious people, why ignore the fact that John received the Holy Ghost before birth? How could a spiritually inert biological life receive the Holy Ghost before growing old enough to repent? Why ignore the prophets who said they were called/marked/known in the womb? I suggest those verses literally mean God loved them in the womb. I never said babies have all sorts of spiritual knowledge. Only that, in their simple childish way, they know they were created, and they know they're not alone. They abide in that love with God before real life sets in on them. |
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Post by Giller on Oct 7, 2020 12:36:08 GMT -5
Via original sin, I think that Tabitha and John make a good point, via these scriptures:
1Co 15:21-22
(21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
(22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Psa 51:5
(5) Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Now concerning the age of accountability, and certain children going to heaven, I did point out this scripture:
Mat 19:14
(14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Notice it says "little" children, and it does not specify what kind of "little" children, just little children.
Nothing specific about whether these little children have godly parents or not.
And then there is the scripture being dealt with:
1Co 7:13-14
(13) And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
(14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
Now this is a much tougher scripture to deal with.
Now it mentions that an unbelieving wife or husband is sanctified by the believing wife or husband.
Well we know it cannot refer to salvation, for the unbelieving wife or husband are unbelievers, which you have to believe to be saved.
We know these people are married, and have entered into a union.
Now here is the Greek word for Sanctification in this scripture:
(Strong's concordance)
(G37
ἁγιάζω
hagiazō
hag-ee-ad'-zo
From G40; to make holy, that is, (ceremonially) purify or consecrate; (mentally) to venerate: - hallow, be holy, sanctify.
Total KJV occurrences: 29)
I do know that God does not want believer's to marry unbelievers, but it does happen that people get saved while married to an unbeliever at times, and at times some Christians have slid from the path to whatever degree and married an unbeliever, and so on, and so on, or whatever else situation there is.
But if a believer is married to an unbeliever, God still recognizes that marriage, and in some form, the unbeliever is sanctified by the believer, and I do know that if one is married to a believer, the believer can bring a Christian influence in that marriage, and if they have children, the believer can bring Christian influence to that child.
And somehow the child, gets considered holy, rather than unclean.
But the question remains, holy in what way?
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Post by Giller on Oct 7, 2020 12:45:56 GMT -5
This is what it says in Matthew:
Mat 19:14
(14) But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
This is what it says in Corinthians:
1Co 7:13-14
(13) And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
(14) For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
In Matthew it specifically says "little children", in Corinthians it does not say the word "little", and does not specifically specify what kind of child, whether older, little or young, and so on.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 12:47:41 GMT -5
I’m not sure why those two references are assumed to be proof texts for original sin. Human fleshly bodies are given over to sin by nature, and life on earth is mortal because Adam has mortal seed. None of this means babies are literally sinning before birth.
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Post by Giller on Oct 7, 2020 12:49:50 GMT -5
We have inherited the sin nature, now that does not mean that we have reached the age of accountability at birth though, of course not.
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PG4Him
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Post by PG4Him on Oct 7, 2020 12:59:00 GMT -5
I totally agree we inherit a sinful nature. Human life is an exercise in sinfulness. Adam gave us that.
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 13:06:05 GMT -5
We have inherited the sin nature, now that does not mean that we have reached the age of accountability at birth though, of course not.
Do you think there is a specific age for everyone that is the age of accountability? 13? 20?
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 13:54:35 GMT -5
If children were clean because they did not reach an age of accountability, they have no sin and get a pass. They need no Savior. If you reach an age of accountability and die within seconds or minutes after reaching it, it is very possible you never sinned, so you saved yourself. That is why this doctrine does not work. On the other hand, if we are born into this world with original sin, and all need a Savior, then the idea that children who are unclean are sanctified by believing parents does make sense. Even if you cannot accept this possibility, and I am still open to it, there is no getting around the fact that if original sin is not charged to you, a person may die between reaching the age of accountability and having a chance to sin.
When adam failed the curse fell upon all mankind . So yeah , babies are not born clean . Just they safe in the Lord for a unknown peroid of time . Its better we teach them from the womb to the tomb .
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 13:56:56 GMT -5
This is an interesting topic. I had never thought to question the doctrine of original sin before.
I think verse like this one might be helpful.
1 Corinthians 15:21-22
King James Version
21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
I don't know if little children get a free pass or not. But based on this verse and others, I do believe in original sin. The wages of sin is death and Adam and Eve committed the sin that brought death and curses to humanity.
There is also Psalm 51:5. We do not need gnostic teachers or Esdres to believe in original sin.
And we dont need no rome either . Thats right . the lambs NEED JESUS and our bibles . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD . |
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 13:58:39 GMT -5
I’m not sure why those two references are assumed to be proof texts for original sin. Human fleshly bodies are given over to sin by nature, and life on earth is mortal because Adam has mortal seed. None of this means babies are literally sinning before birth. Correct sister . it does not mean babies are ACTUALLY sinning . I got good news though . JESUS came in the same likness of sinful flesh , YET HE NEVER SINNED . OH PRAISE THE LORD HE DID it for us . YES INDEED . He conquered HE who held the power of death . PUT THOSE HANDS UP and PRAISE THE LORD . |
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 14:00:16 GMT -5
If children were clean because they did not reach an age of accountability, they have no sin and get a pass. They need no Savior. If you reach an age of accountability and die within seconds or minutes after reaching it, it is very possible you never sinned, so you saved yourself. That is why this doctrine does not work. On the other hand, if we are born into this world with original sin, and all need a Savior, then the idea that children who are unclean are sanctified by believing parents does make sense. Even if you cannot accept this possibility, and I am still open to it, there is no getting around the fact that if original sin is not charged to you, a person may die between reaching the age of accountability and having a chance to sin.
When adam failed the curse fell upon all mankind . So yeah , babies are not born clean . Just they safe in the Lord for a unknown peroid of time . Its better we teach them from the womb to the tomb .
That is one of the things we are still trying to determine. Are all children safe, even the children of unbelievers till a certain age? I am still not sure, but I am hoping to have more clarity by the time this brainstorming is over. If not, the most important thing is as you said, train up your kids. That is what parents are instructed to do anyway, and parents, make sure you are faithfully serving the Lord. Then your children are safe whether it is because of the parents or an age of accountability. Also, nobody should be killing their unborn children in the first place, so if we would finally bring an end to abortion, that discussion about the final destination of those murdered that way would cease.
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Post by frienduff on Oct 7, 2020 14:02:36 GMT -5
That is one of the things we are still trying to determine. Are all children safe, even the children of unbelievers till a certain age? I am still not sure, but I am hoping to have more clarity by the time this brainstorming is over. If not, the most important thing is as you said, train up your kids. That is what parents are instructed to do anyway, and parents, make sure you are faithfully serving the Lord. Then your children are safe whether it is because of the parents or an age of accountability. Also, nobody should be killing their unborn children in the first place, so if we would finally bring an end to abortion, that discussion about the final destination of those murdered that way would cease.
Well my advice is dont vote for biden . And on top of that Be praying to the glorious Lord that monster abortion gets kicked out . |
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Post by John on Oct 7, 2020 14:04:21 GMT -5
There is also Psalm 51:5. We do not need gnostic teachers or Esdres to believe in original sin.
And we dont need no rome either . Thats right . the lambs NEED JESUS and our bibles . PRAISE THE GLORIOUS LORD .
I do not look to the Apocryphal books for absolute truth on anything, but the 14 books included in the 1611 KJV Bible called Apocrypha are not Catholic books. The main reason they were not considered fully authoritative was because there were no copies in Hebrew, only Greek. That disqualified them when they were considered as part of the Old Testament. I have never considered those books especially dangerous like many other extra-Biblical books, especially gnostic heresies, but they should never be looked at as the inerrant Word of God. The only books that should be seen as inerrant are the 66 books of the Protestant recognized canon.
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